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Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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You most likely are right but the fuzziness of this whole case continues. Given that it is a translation from amandaknoxcase.com I doubt it has been "photo-shopped" but what he writes is confusing. It could mean he spoke with his lawyer before the court date - I may see you tomorrow, at least that is what I was told by Tiziano [translator’s note:
Tedeschi, his lawyer at the time], who I saw today and who defended me before the judge. At
least I am happy for that.


The language used could mean either or he was or was not himself before the judge. Couldn't he just say I had Tedeschi with me when I saw the judge?

The date of writing would have needed to be the ninth as Saturday was visiting day for family.

Luciano Ghirga, the lawyer for Knox, said: "I have only just been appointed her lawyer and have not yet had a chance to read through the papers.
"I have met Ms Knox's mother and she has told me that she is convinced of her daughter's innocence. I will see her for the first time at Thursday's hearing.
"The mother will not be able to see her until Saturday, that is the day for family visits."


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-brought-strange-men-house.html#ixzz3uuq69uwz
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Basically it makes no sense unless Italians had a Friday visit day. I don't really care about it but I could see reading it, it gave fodder to the PGP/Mignini assertion he was able to see a lawyer in time.

Look at the whole diary as presented at amandaknoxcase.com. There are no dated entries between Nov. 7, 2007 and Nov. 11, 2007 in the Italian version, which is not the original diary, but what was reported in the media, as presented by Quotidiano.Net Cronaca. The next dated entry in this version is Nov. 12, 2007.

So the "Nov. 7" entry you are looking at, and trying to make sense of, may include entries for several days up to Nov. 11. This may have been the result of Raffaele not entering the date at each new entry, or the Italian media omitting intermediate dates.

The specific wording you have pointed to - in sense: that he had seen Tedeschi today, his lawyer, who had defended him before the judge - may have been written on Nov. 9. The defense before the judge (magistrate) of the preliminary hearing was definitely on Nov. 8. Raffaele saw Tedeschi that day at the hearing, and his father was not at the hearing, based upon the court record. Possibly, Tedeschi visited Raffaele on Nov. 9, and Raffaele learned that his father was going to see him the next day, Nov. 10, a Saturday. That timeline would be consistent with family visiting day being Saturday, and with the "Nov. 7" entry covering entries over a span of days from Nov. 7 to Nov. 9 or 10.
 
For the last time, I am NOT making the case multiple people killed Meredith. I am making the case the defense needn't have to prove there was only one killer to defend the kids. They could have just said if you insist there were more than one, it doesn't mean our clients. There is as much evidence for someone else as our clients. Then they could have pointed to unidentified prints and DNA.

The defense may have spent some effort on establishing that there was evidence consistent with there being only one killer. That is reasonable, as the prosecution attempted to show that the killing and rape required more than one killer, and had before the conclusion of the first trial of Knox and Sollecito, had established that Guede had accomplices in a fast-track trial where Knox and Sollecito did not have legal representation with standing to challenge or question.

In fact, there was no objectively credible evidence of any other person besides Guede taking part in the crime. That remains true to this day.

The proposition that the defense should not have included a rebuttal to the multiple killer theory of the prosecution is wrong. It was a key element of the prosecution case, and in a fair trial in an impartial court, not bound by the unfair "judicial truths" imposed by Italian practices, would have been an effective defense.

An objective reading of the motivation report of the Massei court shows, however, that no defense could have been effective. That court unfairly and arbitrarily rendered a verdict of guilty. The court did not follow Italian procedural law CPP 533.1, which requires that "the judge shall deliver a judgment of conviction if the accused is proven to be guilty of the alleged offense beyond a reasonable doubt". The same is true of the Nencini court as revealed in its motivation report.
 
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Maybe the PLE would have used the rental house explanation for not following through. Apparently DNA and fingerprints are useless because people not involved in the crime could have left it before the crime. Who knew?
DNA and fingerprints of unknown parties might not be useless, depending on their quantity and their quality. We all leave a trail of DNA behind us, and recent developments have made it easier to process tiny samples. As for fingerprints, it is obvious that a clean, unsmeared one out in the open is likely more relevant than a dusty, smeared one underneath something. What is a good source for descriptions of the DNA and fingerprint evidence?
 
For the last time, I am NOT making the case multiple people killed Meredith. I am making the case the defense needn't have to prove there was only one killer to defend the kids. They could have just said if you insist there were more than one, it doesn't mean our clients. There is as much evidence for someone else as our clients. Then they could have pointed to unidentified prints and DNA.

I think this was a major issue, it was an established (judicial) fact that Guede and others committed the crime. The defence case therefore had to be that Sollecito and Knox were not the others. Convicting courts may have taken the view that accepting others were involved the strongest case was against Knox and Sollecito, therefore they must have been the others concerned.
 
I think this was a major issue, it was an established (judicial) fact that Guede and others committed the crime. The defence case therefore had to be that Sollecito and Knox were not the others. Convicting courts may have taken the view that accepting others were involved the strongest case was against Knox and Sollecito, therefore they must have been the others concerned.

It's a real catch 22. I'm convinced that the Defense lawyers had a duty to strongly refute the idea that there were multiple assailants. Hellman addresses this in his motivation basically saying 2 things. The first is to put down the idea that the judicial facts in the Guede trial should be used against Amanda and Raffaele. And two that the evidence does not necessarily points to multiple assailants let alone Amanda and Raffaele.

.

The General Prosecutor and attorneys for the civil parties have argued that, in denying Rudy Guede’s appeal, the Corte di Cassazione put down “unmovable poles” [paletti insuperabili] for this Corte di Assise with regard to the reconstruction of the crime and the evaluation of the evidence; and, although they modified the scope of [ridimensionato] this argument at the end of the discussion by claiming this ruling as only one element to be assessed, they nevertheless emphasized the particular relevance of this element.

It is only too obvious that the ruling in question is not absolutely binding [on us]; that would be contrary not only to the norms of positive law governing the force [efficacia] of criminal verdicts in other cases (C.P.P. Article 654), but also to all the basic constitutionally-guaranteed institutional principles (Constitution, Article 111), since the current defendants would be made to suffer the effects of a ruling issued in a case in which they were not involved.

But, in truth, the ruling in question, introduced under C.P.P. Article 238b and thus usable as evidence only as one among other elements evaluable under C.P.P. Article 192 paragraph 3 (see Cass. Section 2, Ruling no. 16626 of 2-28-2007 (submitted 5-2-2007) Rv. 236650; Section 3, Ruling no. 8823 of 1-13-2009 (submitted 2-27-2009) Rv. 242767) itself seems particularly weak as evidence, as the proceedings concerning Rudy Guede were held under the fast-track system [celebrato con rito abbreviato], so that the judges who considered the position of Rudy Guede were not able to conduct the investigations of a [proper] trial [delle acquisizioni della istruttoria dibattimentale] — in particular the independent expert review that we performed– either at the first level or at the present level, despite the complexity of the case, at least with regard to the current defendants.

Furthermore, it is the Corte di Cassazione itself, in the ruling cited by the General Prosecutor and attorneys for the civil parties, which warns: “Thus right from the outset we must resist the attempt — reflected in [literally “pursued by”] the entire structure of the defense case, but out of place in the context of this decision — to involve the [Cassazione] panel in endorsing the hypothesis that others, Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox, were responsible for the murder, aggravated by sexual violence, of Meredith Kercher. The decision that this Court is called to make concerns only the responsibility of Guede with regard to the act under dispute…”

And indeed, reexamination of what emerged at the first trial and further investigations resulting from our partial reopening of trial proceedings at the present level do not confirm the hypothesis that more than one person was necessarily involved in the crime.
 
I think this was a major issue, it was an established (judicial) fact that Guede and others committed the crime. The defence case therefore had to be that Sollecito and Knox were not the others. Convicting courts may have taken the view that accepting others were involved the strongest case was against Knox and Sollecito, therefore they must have been the others concerned.

This is the very definition of the evidence against RS/AK being "judicially generated".
 
DNA and fingerprints of unknown parties might not be useless, depending on their quantity and their quality. We all leave a trail of DNA behind us, and recent developments have made it easier to process tiny samples. As for fingerprints, it is obvious that a clean, unsmeared one out in the open is likely more relevant than a dusty, smeared one underneath something. What is a good source for descriptions of the DNA and fingerprint evidence?

DNA was found on the bra clasp besides RAf's. You can find info at Amandaknoxcase.com.

Reports over the years had fingerprints remaining unidentified, if your interested I'm sure you can find them.

Given the competence of the ICSI it will always remain unknown how many pieces of evidence were missed.

Btw most here are very aware of the developments in DNA. The ISC sending back of Hellmann highlighted the better techniques and abilities for smaller sample identification.

As for fingerprints, it is obvious that a clean, unsmeared one out in the open is likely more relevant than a dusty, smeared one underneath something. - :rolleyes:
 
This is the very definition of the evidence against RS/AK being "judicially generated".

Not exactly. The "judicial fact" was that there were accomplices. The point made is the defense didn't need to refute the fact but point out even if true no evidence pointed to the kids inside the murder room. It may not have pointed to anyone but the defense was only concerned about the kids.

Several of the experts leaned toward multiple attackers and the chief defense expert's refutation was that 4 people could fit in the room which seemed lame.
 
The defense may have spent some effort on establishing that there was evidence consistent with there being only one killer. That is reasonable, as the prosecution attempted to show that the killing and rape required more than one killer, and had before the conclusion of the first trial of Knox and Sollecito, had established that Guede had accomplices in a fast-track trial where Knox and Sollecito did not have legal representation with standing to challenge or question.

In fact, there was no objectively credible evidence of any other person besides Guede taking part in the crime. That remains true to this day.

The proposition that the defense should not have included a rebuttal to the multiple killer theory of the prosecution is wrong. It was a key element of the prosecution case, and in a fair trial in an impartial court, not bound by the unfair "judicial truths" imposed by Italian practices, would have been an effective defense.

An objective reading of the motivation report of the Massei court shows, however, that no defense could have been effective. That court unfairly and arbitrarily rendered a verdict of guilty. The court did not follow Italian procedural law CPP 533.1, which requires that "the judge shall deliver a judgment of conviction if the accused is proven to be guilty of the alleged offense beyond a reasonable doubt". The same is true of the Nencini court as revealed in its motivation report.

The kids did have some input in the Guede trial IIRC but regardless it is a question of emphasis. We obviously disagree but I would have made more of a case of Rudi having accomplices he knew making sense, like Koko. When the prosecution asked where the evidence of those others were, I'd ask where the evidence of the kids in the room was.

Judicial truths may well be bs but they exist in the system and the defense had to sail on that sea.
 
The kids did have some input in the Guede trial IIRC but regardless it is a question of emphasis. We obviously disagree but I would have made more of a case of Rudi having accomplices he knew making sense, like Koko. When the prosecution asked where the evidence of those others were, I'd ask where the evidence of the kids in the room was.

Judicial truths may well be bs but they exist in the system and the defense had to sail on that sea.

Truer words have never been spoken. Yet when one looks out the porthole and sees the seas, but then realizes that the beautiful view is only judicially-generated and you've never left dry-dock......

It means that the defence is hampered right away. The lawyers for the defence are still officers of the court and have to defend pretending that the king has clothes.
 
The kids did have some input in the Guede trial IIRC but regardless it is a question of emphasis. We obviously disagree but I would have made more of a case of Rudi having accomplices he knew making sense, like Koko. When the prosecution asked where the evidence of those others were, I'd ask where the evidence of the kids in the room was.

Judicial truths may well be bs but they exist in the system and the defense had to sail on that sea.

Please provide details and citation(s) for this interesting information.

How and in what way did Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have "input" to Guede's trial(s), which began with a fast-track (aka "summary" or "abbreviated") trial, when Knox and Sollecito were not parties to it? What Italian procedural law provisions allowed such input?
 
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Please provide details and citation(s) for this interesting information.

How and in what way did Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have "input" to Guede's trial(s), which began with a fast-track (aka "summary" or "abbreviated") trial, when Knox and Sollecito were not parties to it? What Italian procedural law provisions allowed such input?

Example have been here in the past but since the transcript isn't available I can't find it now. They had IIRC a very limited role.

It is clear that the ruling finalized by the ISC included "facts" the kids were not adequately allowed to rebut. The short form trial combined with the adversaries both benefiting from multiple killers makes the conclusion worthless.

Maybe Vixen can provide the link to the kids' defense's role in the Rudi trial.
 
Look at the whole diary as presented at amandaknoxcase.com. There are no dated entries between Nov. 7, 2007 and Nov. 11, 2007 in the Italian version, which is not the original diary, but what was reported in the media, as presented by Quotidiano.Net Cronaca. The next dated entry in this version is Nov. 12, 2007.

So the "Nov. 7" entry you are looking at, and trying to make sense of, may include entries for several days up to Nov. 11. This may have been the result of Raffaele not entering the date at each new entry, or the Italian media omitting intermediate dates.

Yes I made mention of the missing date but not from a media report but rather the translation at akc.com

The specific wording you have pointed to - in sense: that he had seen Tedeschi today, his lawyer, who had defended him before the judge - may have been written on Nov. 9. The defense before the judge (magistrate) of the preliminary hearing was definitely on Nov. 8. Raffaele saw Tedeschi that day at the hearing, and his father was not at the hearing, based upon the court record. Possibly, Tedeschi visited Raffaele on Nov. 9, and Raffaele learned that his father was going to see him the next day, Nov. 10, a Saturday. That timeline would be consistent with family visiting day being Saturday, and with the "Nov. 7" entry covering entries over a span of days from Nov. 7 to Nov. 9 or 10.

So he said today when it was yesterday but didn't say day after tomorrow for seeing his dad. He said he defended him which was the 8th.

To me it shows how spaced out he was. The defense should have used it to show he wasn't calendar savvy.
 
Grinder said:
The kids did have some input in the Guede trial IIRC but regardless it is a question of emphasis. We obviously disagree but I would have made more of a case of Rudi having accomplices he knew making sense, like Koko. When the prosecution asked where the evidence of those others were, I'd ask where the evidence of the kids in the room was.

Judicial truths may well be bs but they exist in the system and the defense had to sail on that sea.

Please provide details and citation(s) for this interesting information.

How and in what way did Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have "input" to Guede's trial(s), which began with a fast-track (aka "summary" or "abbreviated") trial, when Knox and Sollecito were not parties to it? What Italian procedural law provisions allowed such input?

Machiavelli used to cite this as a rebuttal to, "AK/RS were convicted, in part, from judicial facts found at a trial they had no representation in."

The fudge on this that the three of them were part of the same process, up until Rudy opted for the fast-track and AK/RS were set over for a separate, full-blown evidentiary trial.

It was a fudge which, as usual, was a side issue to the fact that, a judicial fact as found at the end of a separate process seemed initially to be unassailable at the AK/RS process. Perhaps even Marasca/Bruno share that view!
 
Machiavelli used to cite this as a rebuttal to, "AK/RS were convicted, in part, from judicial facts found at a trial they had no representation in."

The fudge on this that the three of them were part of the same process, up until Rudy opted for the fast-track and AK/RS were set over for a separate, full-blown evidentiary trial.

It was a fudge which, as usual, was a side issue to the fact that, a judicial fact as found at the end of a separate process seemed initially to be unassailable at the AK/RS process. Perhaps even Marasca/Bruno share that view!

Well Bill he addressed this as you know.

Bill Willaims}: They were represented up to the point where they were set over for trial said:
machiaveli said:
No, they were represented through the whole Guede's trial. And they brought remarkable evidence and arguments to support the "lone perpetrator scenario" (for example they tried to show that Guede stepped on a glass fragment that purportedly remained trapped beneath his sole and was carried around). Only, they lost. They were not convincing.

then you said This simply cannot be fudged, no matter how much you try.


and he said
I don't need to "try" anything. This is simply what is in the record.
 
Well Bill he addressed this as you know.
Bill Williams said:
:
They were represented up to the point where they were set over for trial, and Rudy went the different, fast-track route. From that point onwards, they were not represented, and most certainly not when the multiple attackers became a "judicial fact" at the conclusion of the Rudy-process.

Machiavelli said:
No, they were represented through the whole Guede's trial. And they brought remarkable evidence and arguments to support the "lone perpetrator scenario" (for example they tried to show that Guede stepped on a glass fragment that purportedly remained trapped beneath his sole and was carried around). Only, they lost. They were not convincing.


then you said This simply cannot be fudged, no matter how much you try.


and he said
I don't need to "try" anything. This is simply what is in the record.

Thanks for finding that. I'd forgotten that part of our exchange. It was either me or someone else - either there or at another part where Machiavelli claimed that, "they were represented through the whole Guede's trial" - where it was shown that they were decidedly NOT represented, esp. in the only way that was meaningful - the right to cross-examine. (And of course, Rudy's was a fast-track trial, where the evidence phase is missing to begin with.....so much for "bringing evidence" about lone-perps, even if they HAD been allowed access to Rudy's process. There was no evidence phase by definition!! Hoots.)

One thing I remember (I think) is that Machiavelli was challenged to point to that "record" he claimed. He did not. There it sat. Machiavelli with another claim he said was on the record which he refused to verify. (Like Stefanoni's non-Ph.D.)
 
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Not exactly. The "judicial fact" was that there were accomplices. The point made is the defense didn't need to refute the fact but point out even if true no evidence pointed to the kids inside the murder room. It may not have pointed to anyone but the defense was only concerned about the kids.

Several of the experts leaned toward multiple attackers and the chief defense expert's refutation was that 4 people could fit in the room which seemed lame.


But an associated weird fact was that the SC Report for Guede actually specifically pointed out that just because it affirmed the lower courts' finding of accomplices, it wasn't affirming that Knox and Sollecito were those accomplices.

Now, that was entirely proper of the SC, and entirely correct. However, I strongly believe that courts such as Massei's (mis)interpreted this part of the SC's ruling as amounting to a form of instruction to them (e.g. the Massei court) to complete the judicial "picture" by slotting in Knox and Sollecito as the accomplices in question.
 
Thanks for finding that. I'd forgotten that part of our exchange. It was either me or someone else - either there or at another part where Machiavelli claimed that, "they were represented through the whole Guede's trial" - where it was shown that they were decidedly NOT represented, esp. in the only way that was meaningful - the right to cross-examine. (And of course, Rudy's was a fast-track trial, where the evidence phase is missing to begin with.....so much for "bringing evidence" about lone-perps, even if they HAD been allowed access to Rudy's process. There was no evidence phase by definition!! Hoots.)

One thing I remember (I think) is that Machiavelli was challenged to point to that "record" he claimed. He did not. There it sat. Machiavelli with another claim he said was on the record which he refused to verify. (Like Stefanoni's non-Ph.D.)

Look, I happen to look up this discussion and I found myself quoted in last post.
Yes, indeed AK/RS were represented throughpout the whole Guede trial, including the right to cross-examine witnesses. In fact they did so.

(obviously, they don't have a right to cross-examine Guede himself without his consent, since Guede was a defendant, and thus had a right to refuse to answer any question, and to lie).
 
Look, I happen to look up this discussion and I found myself quoted in last post.
Yes, indeed AK/RS were represented throughpout the whole Guede trial, including the right to cross-examine witnesses. In fact they did so.

(obviously, they don't have a right to cross-examine Guede himself without his consent, since Guede was a defendant, and thus had a right to refuse to answer any question, and to lie).

Mach could you please refer us to anything confirming the participation of the defense for A&R in the Guede trial?
 
Mach could you please refer us to anything confirming the participation of the defense for A&R in the Guede trial?


But regardless - Guede's trial process was to determine the guilt or non-guilt of Guede alone, on the charges that Guede faced (murder etc). That's all. It wasn't there to determine "what really happened" - even though Italian criminal courts still appear shockingly unable to stop themselves from stepping outside their remit to do so. And it was only Guede who was on trial in the Guede trials. Knox and Sollecito were no more than "interested parties".

So the (only) person on trial was claiming there were others present at the murder. The prosecutors were claiming there were others present. Knox and Sollecito frankly didn't stand a chance in hell of the court not concurring that there were others present. I repeat, Knox and Sollecito were not on trial during Guede's trial process. As such, there is zero way that they could have played any fair role in the way Guede's trial process decided the number-of-attackers issue.

Simply put, Guede should (and could) have been found guilty of the murder of Kercher in his trial process, without the courts ever making any kind of definitive judgement on the "number of perps" issue before having the full, proper Knox/Sollecito trial process as well, and considering the whole trial process related to this crime complete.
 
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