Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[acbytesla]

Hmmm, maybe the finger of guilt always points to the person who did it, when all is said and done.

Perhaps it is the perp who is marching out of step with everybody else. Or is that too radical?

Sometimes it points to the wrong person. That is why we have trials. It requires much more than an accusation to convict someone. This isn't Salem you know.

 

[LondonJohn]

Yes, and IMV callous murderers who butcher their room mates for futile reason should face justice, and not laugh in the face of decent upright citizens, with fraudulent innocence projects.

Oh I absolutely agree. 100%.

But by the same token, people who haven't participated in the murder of their house mates (room mates) should be free to do whatever they damn well like - especially if they've been wrongfully imprisoned and wrongfully convicted for a crime they didn't do.

(You do realise, don't you, that Knox was acquitted by the Italian state in respect of the murder of Meredith Kercher; that she is considered legally and ethically innocent by the Italian State in respect of the murder; that there is not one piece of credible, reliable evidence that suggests her participation in the murder; and that she almost without doubt did not participate in the murder in any way?)

 

[LondonJohn]

Bruno and Marasca did not have the jurisdiction to set a case precedent, without conferring with united chambers.

What's your evidence to support this contention?

(Hint: either of "I read it on a partisan website" or "I heard it from some bloke down the pub" will not stand as acceptable evidence).

Thanks in advance for supplying the evidence to back up your claim. I know how extremely important proper confirmatory research is to you - and rightly so.

 

[LondonJohn]

This must be the subject of a slew of articles. Could you provide three from reputable sources? Thanks in advance.

You beat me to it

 

[LondonJohn]

Repeat after me. "A QUIT ED". Now a second time "A QUIT ED". Now go away. When you learn what that means, you can come back. Amanda and Raffaele have proven to be more decent, more upright, more honorable than you could dream to be.

And you beat me to it as well! Damn it!

(Though your spelling leaves a little to be desired )

 

[acbytesla]

DELETE

 

[bagels]

Hmmm, maybe the finger of guilt always points to the person who did it, when all is said and done.

Perhaps it is the perp who is marching out of step with everybody else. Or is that too radical?

Perhaps the person who did it is the armed wall climbing rock throwing window smashing criminal who left 8 bloody footprints around the body, a bloody handprint next to the body, DNA inside the stripped body's genitals, fled to Germany, and said he didn't do it because while he was on a date with the victim a bushy haired stranger came in just as he had to go to the toilet and when he came back Meredith was dying and he got scared and didn't call the police as she died in front of his eyes.

 

[Grinder]

Perhaps the person who did it is the armed wall climbing rock throwing window smashing criminal who left 8 bloody footprints around the body, a bloody handprint next to the body, DNA inside the stripped body's genitals, fled to Germany, and said he didn't do it because while he was on a date with the victim a bushy haired stranger came in just as he had to go to the toilet and when he came back Meredith was dying and he got scared and didn't call the police as she died in front of his eyes.

Sorry the guy wasn't bushy-haired.

 

[LondonJohn]

Ok, I've just read the latest on the Stasi verdict (by Cassation) on the IA thread. This may present a clue as to why the newspiece you cited also made mention of the unpredictability of Cassation, making it fruitless to predict outcomes.

A reminder - Stasi was acquitted in both 1st grade and 2nd grade, lower court trials. Like the Knox/Sollecito case, Cassation annulled the acquittals and ordered a new, second grade trial - along certain parameters.

The new 2nd grade trial then convicted. Incredibly, if I am reading the thread at IA right, both the Prosecutor General AND the defence appeal to Cassation was to annul this conviction (!), the only difference being that the prosecution wanted annulment with referral back, and the defence (like in the Knox/Sollecito case) wanted annulment without referral.

The claim made was, "The Prosecutor General, who should represent, as its name says, the prosecution has utterly destroyed the convicting ruling, demolishing it both from a fact finding point of view and from a legal one." The prosecutor general, apparently, went on to say that the new 2nd grade judges presumed Stasi as guilty, because that was the way they viewed the remand from the previous Cassation referral.

Even with this Cassation upheld both the conviction as well as the 16 year prison sentence.

So..... it seems like (as it says) Cassation is pretty much a lottery of justice.

It seems to me that the Italian SC is constantly trying to sort out the incompetence, mistakes and unjust verdicts that are all-too-frequently thrown up by the lower courts. And the problem the SC has is that its hands are forever tied - when it's part of the "normal" (for Italy) trials process - where it comes to findings of fact.

The SC cannot - without there being constitutional-level problems generated - overturn findings of fact from the lower courts, and yet it can often see (as in the Knox/Sollecito case) that the actual evidence presented to the lower courts simply cannot justify certain findings of fact. So IMO the SC has evolved an artful - yet clumsy, ugly and undesirable in pure jurisprudence terms - technique of overturning the verdicts of lower courts while performing sleight of hand to avoid explicitly overturning findings of fact.

What needs to happen to fix this horribly broken system, IMO, is for the lower courts in Italy to function properly, fairly and efficiently. I think that Italy desperately needs to move to a full jury trial system for serious indictable criminal offences, where lay jurors try the case on their own, and where a judge presides and instructs the jury. There should be a single, exhaustive trial where both sides - prosecution and defence - put everything on the table, and a definitive single verdict is reached by the jury. Appeals should be exceptional and only granted where there is demonstrable evidence that the original verdict may have been flawed.

 

[bagels]

Sorry the guy wasn't bushy-haired.

Yeah I know

http://www.acronymfinder.com/Bushy_haired-stranger-(non_existent-thug-used-as-cover_up)-(BHS).html

 

[LondonJohn]

Yeah I know

http://www.acronymfinder.com/Bushy_haired-stranger-(non_existent-thug-used-as-cover_up)-(BHS).html

To paraphrase the recently-deceased, great Vincent Bugliosi, I think it would be possible to (safely) convict Guede of murder using nothing more than his bloody palm print on the pillow case, his stated version of events in the cottage, his proven presence at the Perugia clubs later on the night of the murder, his proven flight through Italy to Germany, and a few hours with a yellow legal pad and a pen.

 

[Grinder]

Yeah I know

http://www.acronymfinder.com/Bushy_haired-stranger-(non_existent-thug-used-as-cover_up)-(BHS).html

I knew I should have put a in my post. I have no doubt you knew and it was just the meme thang.

 

[Bill Williams]

It seems to me that the Italian SC is constantly trying to sort out the incompetence, mistakes and unjust verdicts that are all-too-frequently thrown up by the lower courts. And the problem the SC has is that its hands are forever tied - when it's part of the "normal" (for Italy) trials process - where it comes to findings of fact.

The SC cannot - without there being constitutional-level problems generated - overturn findings of fact from the lower courts, and yet it can often see (as in the Knox/Sollecito case) that the actual evidence presented to the lower courts simply cannot justify certain findings of fact. So IMO the SC has evolved an artful - yet clumsy, ugly and undesirable in pure jurisprudence terms - technique of overturning the verdicts of lower courts while performing sleight of hand to avoid explicitly overturning findings of fact.

What needs to happen to fix this horribly broken system, IMO, is for the lower courts in Italy to function properly, fairly and efficiently. I think that Italy desperately needs to move to a full jury trial system for serious indictable criminal offences, where lay jurors try the case on their own, and where a judge presides and instructs the jury. There should be a single, exhaustive trial where both sides - prosecution and defence - put everything on the table, and a definitive single verdict is reached by the jury. Appeals should be exceptional and only granted where there is demonstrable evidence that the original verdict may have been flawed.

I'm not convinced separating the roles of trier of fact/trier of law is the answer, really. The Italian system seems able (in theory at least) to overcome incompetent trials to begin with..... the advantage of what amounts to a second fact-finding trial should be enough - again in theory - to overcome wrongful convictions. If the Chieffi Court had not gone all squirrely, virtually directing Nencini's court to convict, this travesty would have ended in 2013. Could have ended in 2013.

One definitive, single verdict from a jury/judge system, or a judge-alone system locks in a wrongful conviction to make it almost impossible to untie; when the upper courts are merely ruling that they might have come to the wrong decision, but by nonetheless following the accepted process.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bruno and Marasca did not have the jurisdiction to set a case precedent, without conferring with united chambers.

What's your evidence to support this contention?

(Hint: either of "I read it on a partisan website" or "I heard it from some bloke down the pub" will not stand as acceptable evidence).

Thanks in advance for supplying the evidence to back up your claim. I know how extremely important proper confirmatory research is to you - and rightly so.

IIRC Machiavelli was claiming what Vixen claims. However, you hafta give Machiavelli credit, he seemed willing to test that thesis in an Italian court! As Grinder has implied, that one made such a splash that it was not covered at all by Italian media.

 

[acbytesla]

Perhaps the person who did it is the armed wall climbing rock throwing window smashing criminal who left 8 bloody footprints around the body, a bloody handprint next to the body, DNA inside the stripped body's genitals, fled to Germany, and said he didn't do it because while he was on a date with the victim a bushy haired stranger came in just as he had to go to the toilet and when he came back Meredith was dying and he got scared and didn't call the police as she died in front of his eyes.

So bizarrely strange that Vixen, Machiavelli, Mignini and the rest of the PGP walk around all this and much much more ( the other burglaries, the nonexistent links to Amanda and Raffaele, the digestion, etc.) And instead focus on the sketchy, absurd idea based on nothing but wild speculation that an absurd scenario of sex and very hidden resentment of three people that barely knew each other would kill a 4th that they barely knew.

Seriously..

 

[analemma]

Sure police can come across as insensitive and thick (ask Amanda and Raff). However, it is the prosecutor - District Attorney in the US - who decides whether to prosecute or not.

"insensitive "
The perfect PGP word for 8 years of stupid witch hunts by known nut cases against innocent bystanders.

 

[analemma]

I'm not convinced separating the roles of trier of fact/trier of law is the answer, really. The Italian system seems able (in theory at least) to overcome incompetent trials to begin with..... the advantage of what amounts to a second fact-finding trial should be enough - again in theory - to overcome wrongful convictions. If the Chieffi Court had not gone all squirrely, virtually directing Nencini's court to convict, this travesty would have ended in 2013. Could have ended in 2013.

One definitive, single verdict from a jury/judge system, or a judge-alone system locks in a wrongful conviction to make it almost impossible to untie; when the upper courts are merely ruling that they might have come to the wrong decision, but by nonetheless following the accepted process.

the Chieffi Court was a disgrace.
Obviously typical Italian political cover your ass nonsense which made Italy look like a bunch of morons.

 

[Grinder]

So bizarrely strange that Vixen, Machiavelli, Mignini and the rest of the PGP walk around all this and much much more ( the other burglaries, the nonexistent links to Amanda and Raffaele, the digestion, etc.) And instead focus on the sketchy, absurd idea based on nothing but wild speculation that an absurd scenario of sex and very hidden resentment of three people that barely knew each other would kill a 4th that they barely knew.

Seriously..

The serious problem is the extreme lack of "hard" circumstantial evidence. A sad recent example is the shoe. The Asic wasn't even put forward by the prosecution as possible source of the print but Vixen put it forward as if it were.

I do not believe there is any way to make up a scenario that has the three killing Meredith and neither do the PGP and that's why they don't put it together.

As I've said many a time the PGP should admit Curatolo saw nothing. If they insist on keeping him then they have to have the kids leaving and coming back without him ever noticing. Maybe they had studied his habits and had timed exactly when he looked up or smoked.

They can't admit that Amanda's DNA on the knife has zero meaning as it was the knife where she was living for 4 days after the murder. Even if it were the murder weapon, her DNA means nothing. It is also notable that the knife had no DNA of Raf which would indicate it was clean at some point and that Amanda's DNA was very recent.

All things indicate Meredith was killed before 10 pm, which eliminates Nara's worthless testimony and Monica's.

Well we will never get a scenario out of the PGP that makes everything fit. Hell, we won't get anything that makes most of it fit.

But someone reported that Amanda smelled of sex, which reminds me of the blind man walking by the fish market first thing in the morning

 

[Bill Williams]

"insensitive "
The perfect PGP word for 8 years of stupid witch hunts by known nut cases against innocent bystanders.

It's speculative conspiratorializing on my part but what the heck....

Anyone foolish enough to defend Mignini et al., also by necessity has to account for his actions in the Narducci affair. How many foolish prosecutions did the guy need before one goes......

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....?

 

[Vixen]

I've broken the law. Today. And I did it deliberately. I also expect I will do the same tomorrow and the day after. I drove 63 MPH in a posted 55 zone. I also regularly sin. Unlike Saint Vixen. I don't really care about anyone's minor indiscretions, vices or foibles.

Personally, I'm much more offended by those that are cruel to others and engage in reckless and dishonest character assassinations.

Can anyone name someone who does that really on this site? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller. Bueller.

Seriously? You drove 8mph above speed limit and you're asking us to believe you are some kinda "rebel without a cause"? Really? As if cops are going to bother stopping you within such a safe range.

Not a paragon of virtue: have hit over 90mph once or twice in the past. Oh dear, if "cruelty and reckless dishonest character assasinations" are directly proportional to sainthood, as measured as inversely proportional to fast driving, you win on that scale. Big of you to recognise the tendency.