Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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People shouldn't really hold forth on things they don't know much about.

While a few very specialist mobile phones had A-GPS capability from around 2002 onwards, it wasn't until around 2008 that the mass-market mobile device manufacturers (e.g. Motorola. Nokia, SonyEricsson) started to place A-GPS units in their devices. And even then, it was only in the very high-end models: it didn't bleed down to the "normal" models til around 2010.

I'm not sure if it's ever been formally documented exactly which models of mobile phones Knox and Sollecito owned/used in November 2007. But I'd be prepared to state that I am extremely highly confident that they would not have been GPS-enabled handsets.

(PS: to anyone *cough* who might be looking for "gotcha" counterexamples, "GPRS" is entirely different to - and entirely unrelated to - "GPS". In case you embarrass yourself, y'know :D )

Don't want to embarrass anyone, - *cough* - but most airline pilots are sick to death of those who don't know the difference between switching your phone off and putting it into flight mode, as you were asked.

Such a common misconception.
 
Don't want to embarrass anyone, - *cough* - but most airline pilots are sick to death of those who don't know the difference between switching your phone off and putting it into flight mode, as you were asked.

Such a common misconception.


Oh dear.

Remind me exactly where "I was asked" (such pompous passive language....) about putting a phone into flight mode, or even where the term "flight mode" (or equivalent) was even mentioned.

Oh wait.... you can't. Because it wasn't mentioned at all in the context of the current discussion. That would be a rather pathetic attempt on your behalf to move the goalposts, wouldn't it? We were talking solely and exclusively about turning a phone off - nothing whatsoever about putting it into flight mode.

Did someone mention "embarrassed".....? ;)


ETA: What's more, airline pilots wouldn't give a damn whether or not passengers knew the difference between turning a handset off and putting into flight mode - so long as the passengers do one of those two actions. Both actions (turning off, and putting into flight mode) would be equally acceptable from the pilot's point of view, since both actions achieve the objective of disabling the handset's transmitter/receiver systems. More embarrassment :D
 
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Stupid Cover ups cont.

#4 having blamed someone else for the crime (see #3) explain it away as "Police brutality made me do it!"

#5 compound the lies following from #3 to releasing a couple of books gilding the lily over >600 pages.

#6 How to explain one's footprint being found? Here's a classic from Raff:

The person under interrogation declares: “I intend to answer. I have read more than once the
warrant which was notified to me. The print from my shoe which you found is not from that day
because that day I was not wearing those shoes but I was wearing them the day before”. http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c...Matteini-arrest-Sollecito-translation-PMF.pdf
 
Oh dear.

Remind me exactly where "I was asked" (such pompous passive language....) about putting a phone into flight mode, or even where the term "flight mode" (or equivalent) was even mentioned.

Oh wait.... you can't. Because it wasn't mentioned at all in the context of the current discussion. That would be a rather pathetic attempt on your behalf to move the goalposts, wouldn't it? We were talking solely and exclusively about turning a phone off - nothing whatsoever about putting it into flight mode.

Did someone mention "embarrassed".....? ;)


ETA: What's more, airline pilots wouldn't give a damn whether or not passengers knew the difference between turning a handset off and putting into flight mode - so long as the passengers do one of those two actions. Both actions (turning off, and putting into flight mode) would be equally acceptable from the pilot's point of view, since both actions achieve the objective of disabling the handset's transmitter/receiver systems. More embarrassment :D



Whatever. So how do explain how police knew the phones were switched off, if in 2007, as you claim, there was no GPS unless you were very very very rich?

I am in my listening pose.
 
Whatever. So how do explain how police knew the phones were switched off, if in 2007, as you claim, there was no GPS unless you were very very very rich?

I am in my listening pose.

You don't know how they knew do you? Did they know the phones were turned off at all?

Can you find the proof that pages were torn out of her diary?

Do you understand why the prosecution must show that their theories are possible?


ETA - What would GPS have to do with determining whether a phone had been turned off?
 
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Whatever. So how do explain how police knew the phones were switched off, if in 2007, as you claim, there was no GPS unless you were very very very rich?

I am in my listening pose.


Firstly, I don't think you know what GPS is or how it works in consumer electronics devices. In things like cellphones and satnavs, it works because those devices have a GPS receiver which picks up signals from the GPS satellites in orbit around the Earth. No consumer electronics devices have GPS transmitters - i.e. they do not communicate back up to the GPS satellites (you'd need huge signal power to be able to do that, and it's totally unnecessary to need to do so anyhow).

So the phone or satnav receives signals from the GPS satellites, and uses software to determine the device's position on the Earth's surface. It may then use that location data in other apps if it wants, including transmissions over the cellular network.

But the only transmission mechanisms that a phone has (and thus the only way in which any third party can know whether or not the device is on or off) is the cellular network (and, latterly, Wifi internet connectivity). So even a phone which is GPS-enabled (which Knox's and Sollecito's were not in 2007) can only make outbound communications via a cellphone network or a Wifi network.

So that's now sorted out hopefully. Now, on the specific question of "how the police knew the phones were switched off", there's a very simple (and rather obvious) answer to that. When a phone is switched on and connected to the cellular network, it "handshakes" occasionally with the network to let the network know it's there, it's switched on, it's connected to the network, and which base station it's connecting to. If a phone is either switched off or falls out of signal coverage, these handshakes cease, and the network then registers that the handset is no longer connected to it. In this way, for example, if someone makes an incoming call to a device which is either switched off or out of signal coverage (as Sollecito's father did on the night in question), the network will make a quick check to see whether the phone is on the network, and when it establishes for sure that the phone isn't on the network, it will do something like auto-divert the call to the user's voicemail, or give a message along the lines of "the phone you are calling is not connected" etc.

And the networks keep records of when phones were and were not connected to the network. So the networks were able to tell the police that Sollecito's and Knox's phones were not connected to the network on the night of the murder. Now, there's a slightly complicated iteration of this issue, in that if you switch off your phone while you're still in network coverage, the phone will in essence tell the network that you're turning it off, and that the network should assume that your phone is off until it hears the "I've turned on again" transmission from your phone. If on the other hand your phone disconnects from the network simply because it's dropped out of signal coverage (even though the handset is still switched on), then obviously no such "sign off" handshake will take place. So the networks should in certain instances be able to determine whether a phone became disconnected from the network on account of a) it being manually switched off (or the battery dying), or b) it accidentally falling out of signal coverage.
 
You don't know how they knew do you? Did they know the phones were turned off at all?

Can you find the proof that pages were torn out of her diary?

Do you understand why the prosecution must show that their theories are possible?


ETA - What would GPS have to do with determining whether a phone had been turned off?


Not sure why you are feigning lack of knowledge of Amanda's diary. The missing pages IIRC are referenced in Follain.

You keep giving me shopping lists of things you want me to look up for you, when surely you can do that for yourself?

Some interesting links:


http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=9173

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...-guys-today-Foxy-Knoxys-disturbing-diary.html
 
Firstly, I don't think you know what GPS is or how it works in consumer electronics devices. In things like cellphones and satnavs, it works because those devices have a GPS receiver which picks up signals from the GPS satellites in orbit around the Earth. No consumer electronics devices have GPS transmitters - i.e. they do not communicate back up to the GPS satellites (you'd need huge signal power to be able to do that, and it's totally unnecessary to need to do so anyhow).

So the phone or satnav receives signals from the GPS satellites, and uses software to determine the device's position on the Earth's surface. It may then use that location data in other apps if it wants, including transmissions over the cellular network.

But the only transmission mechanisms that a phone has (and thus the only way in which any third party can know whether or not the device is on or off) is the cellular network (and, latterly, Wifi internet connectivity). So even a phone which is GPS-enabled (which Knox's and Sollecito's were not in 2007) can only make outbound communications via a cellphone network or a Wifi network.

So that's now sorted out hopefully. Now, on the specific question of "how the police knew the phones were switched off", there's a very simple (and rather obvious) answer to that. When a phone is switched on and connected to the cellular network, it "handshakes" occasionally with the network to let the network know it's there, it's switched on, it's connected to the network, and which base station it's connecting to. If a phone is either switched off or falls out of signal coverage, these handshakes cease, and the network then registers that the handset is no longer connected to it. In this way, for example, if someone makes an incoming call to a device which is either switched off or out of signal coverage (as Sollecito's father did on the night in question), the network will make a quick check to see whether the phone is on the network, and when it establishes for sure that the phone isn't on the network, it will do something like auto-divert the call to the user's voicemail, or give a message along the lines of "the phone you are calling is not connected" etc.

And the networks keep records of when phones were and were not connected to the network. So the networks were able to tell the police that Sollecito's and Knox's phones were not connected to the network on the night of the murder. Now, there's a slightly complicated iteration of this issue, in that if you switch off your phone while you're still in network coverage, the phone will in essence tell the network that you're turning it off, and that the network should assume that your phone is off until it hears the "I've turned on again" transmission from your phone. If on the other hand your phone disconnects from the network simply because it's dropped out of signal coverage (even though the handset is still switched on), then obviously no such "sign off" handshake will take place. So the networks should in certain instances be able to determine whether a phone became disconnected from the network on account of a) it being manually switched off (or the battery dying), or b) it accidentally falling out of signal coverage.

Many phones are actually still switched on even though their ownner may think they switched it off. When this happens, any text message is simply bounced off the mast going backwards and forth, which is why as soon as Raff turned on his phone a notification of his dad's missed call at 11:00pm came through.

If his phone had truly been switched off (for example, in flight mode or the battery taken out) that would not happen.

Clear now?

I am now poised in listening mode for anyone to explain to me why would-be criminals systemically turn off their phone ahead of the crime?

Please resist the hoary chestnut, Oh Raff and Amanda wanted to shag.
 
I am now poised in listening mode for anyone to explain to me why would-be criminals systemically turn off their phone ahead of the crime?

Please resist the hoary chestnut, Oh Raff and Amanda wanted to shag.

Their reasoning for switching off the phones is as follows: Once their evening was free of obligation (work, giving friend a ride) they didn't want anymore interruptions. After Amanda's boss told her she didn't have to come into work that night, she switched off her phone so he wouldn't have a chance to change his mind. Raffaele knew his father tended to call every night and talk, and he decided to switch off his phone and talk to him another time.

This is weighed against Amanda and Raffaele switching them off as part of their murder plan, which involved spontaneously running into their burglar accomplice they weren't in communication with, and who couldn't have known in advance the plan for the murder was happening that evening.

Do you understand that not even the prosecution, nor any of the judges, believed the murder was premeditated?
 
Many phones are actually still switched on even though their ownner may think they switched it off. When this happens, any text message is simply bounced off the mast going backwards and forth, which is why as soon as Raff turned on his phone a notification of his dad's missed call at 11:00pm came through.

If his phone had truly been switched off (for example, in flight mode or the battery taken out) that would not happen.

Clear now?

I am now poised in listening mode for anyone to explain to me why would-be criminals systemically turn off their phone ahead of the crime?

Please resist the hoary chestnut, Oh Raff and Amanda wanted to shag.


No. You are plain wrong. And you clearly don't understand this subject at all.

When a mobile phone is switched off, it's switched off. It does not communicate in any way with the network once it's powered down.

What actually happens when someone calls (or texts, for that matter) a phone that's either been switched off or has fallen out of signal coverage (which is what happened to Sollecito's phone that night) is as follows: the network tries to connect the call but cannot locate or reach the handset. So the network either autoconnects the caller (Sollecito's father in this instance) to the recipient's (Sollecito's) voicemail, or it gives the caller an automated message saying that the recipient is not available. It also makes a record of the call and its timing, and essentially tells itself that as soon as it next "sees" the recipient's mobile phone on the network, it will send it a message telling it that there was a missed call at x.xx time. Therefore, in this particular instance, the next time that Sollecito's handset shook hands with the network (on account of regaining signal coverage), the network recognised that Sollecito's phone was now connected and it therefore sent a message to the phone to inform him of the missed call.

All this bogus talk of "any text message is simply bounced off the mast going backwards and forth, which is why as soon as Raff turned on his phone a notification of his dad's missed call at 11:00pm came through." is arrant nonsense. Don't pretend to know about something when you clearly know nothing about it. It's embarrassing and irritating, not to mention misleading and intellectually dishonest. So please desist. OK?


ETA: I just noticed another zinger where you wrote "If his phone had truly been switched off (for example, in flight mode...)". This is stunningly wrong, and is another stark illustration of just how ignorant you are on this whole subject. You need to know and understand that putting a phone (or any mobile device) into flight mode doesn't actually switch the device off at all! What it does do is to disable the transmitter/receiver elements of the device, while leaving the device switched on and operable for all other activities. By contrast, switching off the device using the "power off" button truly does turn off power to the whole device, including (of course) the transmitter/receiver elements.
 
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Their reasoning for switching off the phones is as follows: Once their evening was free of obligation (work, giving friend a ride) they didn't want anymore interruptions. After Amanda's boss told her she didn't have to come into work that night, she switched off her phone so he wouldn't have a chance to change his mind. Raffaele knew his father tended to call every night and talk, and he decided to switch off his phone and talk to him another time.

This is weighed against Amanda and Raffaele switching them off as part of their murder plan, which involved spontaneously running into their burglar accomplice they weren't in communication with, and who couldn't have known in advance the plan for the murder was happening that evening.

Do you understand that not even the prosecution, nor any of the judges, believed the murder was premeditated?


I also don't think Sollecito's phone was actually manually powered off. I think Sollecito's apartment had very patchy signal coverage (owing to the topographical layout of Perugia, the narrow streets, and the very thick stone walls of his building). I think that Sollecito's phone actually remained powered on, but simply fell out of signal coverage. It then picked up signal again a couple of hours later (signal coverage in these sorts of scenarios can be a very esoteric matter, related to things such as channel availability, signal power variations at the base station, network demand in the vicinity...). So all the network "saw" was that Sollecito's phone became disconnected from the network at some point that evening, and then became reconnected to the network at some point a couple of hours (or so) later.
 
No. You are plain wrong. And you clearly don't understand this subject at all.

When a mobile phone is switched off, it's switched off. It does not communicate in any way with the network once it's powered down.

What actually happens when someone calls (or texts, for that matter) a phone that's either been switched off or has fallen out of signal coverage (which is what happened to Sollecito's phone that night) is as follows: the network tries to connect the call but cannot locate or reach the handset. So the network either autoconnects the caller (Sollecito's father in this instance) to the recipient's (Sollecito's) voicemail, or it gives the caller an automated message saying that the recipient is not available. It also makes a record of the call and its timing, and essentially tells itself that as soon as it next "sees" the recipient's mobile phone on the network, it will send it a message telling it that there was a missed call at x.xx time. Therefore, in this particular instance, the next time that Sollecito's handset shook hands with the network (on account of regaining signal coverage), the network recognised that Sollecito's phone was now connected and it therefore sent a message to the phone to inform him of the missed call.

All this bogus talk of "any text message is simply bounced off the mast going backwards and forth, which is why as soon as Raff turned on his phone a notification of his dad's missed call at 11:00pm came through." is arrant nonsense. Don't pretend to know about something when you clearly know nothing about it. It's embarrassing and irritating, not to mention misleading and intellectually dishonest. So please desist. OK?


ETA: I just noticed another zinger where you wrote "If his phone had truly been switched off (for example, in flight mode...)". This is stunningly wrong, and is another stark illustration of just how ignorant you are on this whole subject. You need to know and understand that putting a phone (or any mobile device) into flight mode doesn't actually switch the device off at all! What it does do is to disable the transmitter/receiver elements of the device, while leaving the device switched on and operable for all other activities. By contrast, switching off the device using the "power off" button truly does turn off power to the whole device, including (of course) the transmitter/receiver elements.

This from a person who swears blind "no-one had GPS in 2007 except the very very very rich". Your overarching desire to "win the argument" can make your responses appear irrational point-scoring exercises as above.
 
I also don't think Sollecito's phone was actually manually powered off. I think Sollecito's apartment had very patchy signal coverage (owing to the topographical layout of Perugia, the narrow streets, and the very thick stone walls of his building). I think that Sollecito's phone actually remained powered on, but simply fell out of signal coverage. It then picked up signal again a couple of hours later (signal coverage in these sorts of scenarios can be a very esoteric matter, related to things such as channel availability, signal power variations at the base station, network demand in the vicinity...). So all the network "saw" was that Sollecito's phone became disconnected from the network at some point that evening, and then became reconnected to the network at some point a couple of hours (or so) later.


ROFL. How convenient the phone signal vanished and the flooded kitchen happened to coincide with the murder! As Raff claims to have carried on sleeping after Amanda left at 10:30 I suppose the phone was miraculously restored to life at six am by tertiary transfer! Maybe it was the cat playing Fight Club at 5:30am.

LOL. The "explanations" are hilarious.
 
This from a person who swears blind "no-one had GPS in 2007 except the very very very rich". Your overarching desire to "win the argument" can make your responses appear irrational point-scoring exercises as above.


What? I said that no mobile phones had GPS in 2007, apart from a few specialist high-end models. And therefore it's extremely unlikely that either Knox or Sollecito had GPS receivers in their mobile phones in 2007. It's very tiresome to keep being misrepresented in this manner: you have been told about this before :D

Anyhow, I'm done engaging with this sort of intellectually dishonest and goalpost-shifting nonsense now. Toodle-pip!
 
Not sure why you are feigning lack of knowledge of Amanda's diary. The missing pages IIRC are referenced in Follain.

You keep giving me shopping lists of things you want me to look up for you, when surely you can do that for yourself?

Some interesting links:


http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=9173

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...-guys-today-Foxy-Knoxys-disturbing-diary.html

So you don't have any credible proof of the missing pages.

The first link has this quote: "This thread shall contain all diaries, statements, letters and e-mails by Amanda Knox. Unfortunately, only a couple of pages of her diary have been released to the general public. The one person who claims to be in possession of the full diary is refusing to share, so here is the only page of what we have:"

I didn't beyond that admission.

The second link only discusses the PRISON diary.

Follain wrote a novel in which he makes up stuff. Does he document this allegation?
 
What? I said that no mobile phones had GPS in 2007, apart from a few specialist high-end models. And therefore it's extremely unlikely that either Knox or Sollecito had GPS receivers in their mobile phones in 2007. It's very tiresome to keep being misrepresented in this manner: you have been told about this before :D

Anyhow, I'm done engaging with this sort of intellectually dishonest and goalpost-shifting nonsense now. Toodle-pip!

It actually IS good to engage in this sort of debate with someone who doesn't understand the most basic of things, or misrepresents other things on a whim. Lurkers every so often check in here, and then have the ability to see what's what.

Meanwhile, the guilter world is falling apart with outings from the most devastating of sources... it is crumbling from within.
 
I've patiently waited for Vixen to explain how the police knew that the phones were turned off. Is there a record from the phone company? Surely it must be part of the record. They must have shown that neither ever turned their phones off at night or very rarely, right?

Amanda's phone being turned off was discovered because she told them she turned it off. IIRC correctly she, being at Raf's, wanted to preserve battery as her charger wasn't at his place.

This is such a silly point since it makes no sense to turn them off. Obviously they knew that when phones are turned on messages sent during the time it was turned off come through and it would be totally obvious when they were sent and that they didn't answer. It is completely clear that had they planned a crime they would have left their phones on at Raf's and hoped that someone would call of text.

What would the PGP say if there were messages left during the murder time and the phones were at Raf's? They sure wouldn't believe that they had been ****** and just didn't answer. They would say they left them home and on. So phones on or off no difference.

I doubt their phones had flight mode.
 
I've patiently waited for Vixen to explain how the police knew that the phones were turned off. Is there a record from the phone company? Surely it must be part of the record. They must have shown that neither ever turned their phones off at night or very rarely, right?

Amanda's phone being turned off was discovered because she told them she turned it off. IIRC correctly she, being at Raf's, wanted to preserve battery as her charger wasn't at his place.

This is such a silly point since it makes no sense to turn them off. Obviously they knew that when phones are turned on messages sent during the time it was turned off come through and it would be totally obvious when they were sent and that they didn't answer. It is completely clear that had they planned a crime they would have left their phones on at Raf's and hoped that someone would call of text.

What would the PGP say if there were messages left during the murder time and the phones were at Raf's? They sure wouldn't believe that they had been ****** and just didn't answer. They would say they left them home and on. So phones on or off no difference.

I doubt their phones had flight mode.

Maybe Vixen is a true-crime author and just makes things up!?
 
The idea behind switching off the phones is to forestall the question, how come you didn't answer the phone during the time period of the murder? How do you know they not only switched off their phones but also left them behind.

The final nail in the coffin of your silliness is that "switching off the phones then heading over to the cottage" speaks to premeditation. None of the convicting courts believed in premeditation so why do you?

Both Massei and Nencici had to invent (out of thin air) theories of how Raffaele's kitchen knife innocently was transported to the cottage that night. The knife had to do double duty, because it had to be their both innocently (a first) and ever so briefly as to leave no innocent reason for Meredith's traces to be found on it.

The trouble with your scatter-gun, "guilt at all costs" theories, like the ones about switching off the phones for malevolent reasons, is that you destroy the reasons why two courts convicted them.

Not that you care. The point is to keep chucking pseudo-evidence into the mix, and then try to convict them on the sheer mass of what you can fraudulently chuck into the mix!

No wonder the Marasca/Bruno section of ISC put a stop to this. Definitively.
 
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Their reasoning for switching off the phones is as follows: Once their evening was free of obligation (work, giving friend a ride) they didn't want anymore interruptions. After Amanda's boss told her she didn't have to come into work that night, she switched off her phone so he wouldn't have a chance to change his mind. Raffaele knew his father tended to call every night and talk, and he decided to switch off his phone and talk to him another time.

This is weighed against Amanda and Raffaele switching them off as part of their murder plan, which involved spontaneously running into their burglar accomplice they weren't in communication with, and who couldn't have known in advance the plan for the murder was happening that evening.

Do you understand that not even the prosecution, nor any of the judges, believed the murder was premeditated?

The issue of premeditation is for the judge. The above was not Amanda's original reason (of three) but it's jolly nice of you to offer an "explanation" on her behalf. Neither was the above Raff's explanation. Are you in the habit of covering up for criminals?
 
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