'The Third Intifada has already begun'

[Aridas]

Half of UN claims are based on the fact Israel borders Gaza. The other half do not amount to occupation without changing the definition of the word to the point it's meaningless.

I would tend to disagree with the former. It's very much not just about bordering Gaza, given that they still control the Gaza's air and sea, among other things. For the latter, I do agree that occupation is not a particularly accurate way to describe it. Anytime one hears the claim that "They're re-invading occupied territory!" it should give one good reason to question how accurate the "occupied" is.

In any event, arguing about whether we should still call Gaza occupied or not are fairly irrelevant.

To a fair extent. The main case where it actually would be relevant would be when evaluating what responsibility Israel actually bears towards the people in Gaza, which I tend not to see brought up much.

It's not that hard to figure out what would take to make Gaza as indenpendent as it would want to be. Ending rocket attacks from UN schools and hiding rockets in UN schools are two examples. Incidentally, has UN condemned either yet?

McHrozni

While it'd be excellent for those two things to stop, that still wouldn't make Gaza as independent as they want, given that they are not currently a sovereign state. Rather, either Israel would need to be destroyed or the Palestinians would have to accept co-existence with Israel and demonstrate that they mean it, legally, for starters, and with their actions over time.

 

[Jules Galen]

They've already made several offers, the Palestinians refused to even make a counteroffer. Because they want nothing less than the destruction of Israel and genocide of the Jews.

I can understand why the Pals hate Israel...but no one is calling for genocide except the whackos - and they exist on both sides. Also, I bet most Palestinians would welcome a two-state solution as would Israelis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution

 

[WildCat]

I can understand why the Pals hate Israel...but no one is calling for genocide except the whackos - and they exist on both sides. Also, I bet most Palestinians would welcome a two-state solution as would Israelis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution

Only on the Palestinian side do the "whackos" get the majority of the vote. And a 2-state solution has the support of a small minority of the Palestinian people, in fact neither Hamas nor Fatah endorse a 2-state solution, and together they get 95% of the vote.

 

[Jules Galen]

Only on the Palestinian side do the "whackos" get the majority of the vote. And a 2-state solution has the support of a small minority of the Palestinian people, in fact neither Hamas nor Fatah endorse a 2-state solution, and together they get 95% of the vote.

I don't believe it.

Can you show me?

And let me clarify what I mean by, "I don't believe it". OK...if you asked Israelis and Palestinians right at this moment if they thought a two-state solution was preferable, then I bet most would say no....and overwhelmingly so. However, when some semblance of peace returns, then I think people will be more open. War is that way...it drives people crazy.

 

[fagin]

So you do believe it.

Really.

 

[WildCat]

I don't believe it.

Can you show me?

And let me clarify what I mean by, "I don't believe it". OK...if you asked Israelis and Palestinians right at this moment if they thought a two-state solution was preferable, then I bet most would say no....and overwhelmingly so. However, when some semblance of peace returns, then I think people will be more open. War is that way...it drives people crazy.

Israel has already offered a 2-state solution, the Palestinians rejected it. Fatah can't even bother amending its Charter which calls for the destruction of Israel.

The Hamas Covenent is even worse, besides calling for the destruction of Israel it also calls for genocide of the Jews.

What on earth leads you to believe the Palestinians will accept a 2-state solution? It's pure speculation on your part based on nothing but hopes.

 

[Jules Galen]

Fatah can't even bother amending its Charter which calls for the destruction of Israel.

The Hamas Covenent is even worse, besides calling for the destruction of Israel it also calls for genocide of the Jews.

I don't believe it...about the genocide, I mean.

Can you show us?

 

[fagin]

You can start here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

If you're really interested I suppose you could find a copy of the actual charter and learn the language.

 

[applecorped]

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"


http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp


I'm sure all the Jews will peacefully leave before Israel is obliterated.

 

[fagin]

But I'm sure you won't believe what you don't want to believe.

 

[Jules Galen]

You can start here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

If you're really interested I suppose you could find a copy of the actual charter and learn the language.

I looked through translation of the Charter and didn't see anything about Genocide.

 

[fagin]

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"


http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp


I'm sure all the Jews will peacefully leave before Israel is obliterated.

No good. I'm sure 'Goldman' means it's a zionist plot to smear the poor innocents.

 

[Jules Galen]

No good. I'm sure 'Goldman' means it's a zionist plot to smear the poor innocents.

But...that quote still doesn't show me anything.

Ya' know what, I bet if Israel let the Pals cool off and return to sanity - as well as present them a viable future - then I bet some positive things could be done.

 

[fagin]

Pals sounds so chummy.

Perhaps the 'Pals' leaders, as elected by the 'Pals' themselves, should be the ones presenting the 'Pals' with a viable future.

No money in that though. Look up how that lot live (and where), compared to the average 'Pal'.

 

[WildCat]

I looked through translation of the Charter and didn't see anything about Genocide.

You didn't look too hard, did you?

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

 

[fagin]

But they didn't actually use the word genocide, so when they have some peace and time to come to their senses, they'll be filled with love and reconciliation.

Or not.

 

[Jules Galen]

But they didn't actually use the word genocide, so when they have some peace and time to come to their senses, they'll be filled with love and reconciliation.

Or not.

I have found that where there is peace and hope for a better future, then the urge to murder the neighbor is greatly reduced.

 

[WildCat]

I have found that where there is peace and hope for a better future, then the urge to murder the neighbor is greatly reduced.

Is that what drove the Nazis, they didn't have enough hope for the future?

 

[McHrozni]

I have found that where there is peace and hope for a better future, then the urge to murder the neighbor is greatly reduced.

How come you criticize Israel, then? Clearly if they had any hope of a peace and a better future, then the urge to murder the neighbor would be greatly reduced.

McHrozni

 

[Roofgardener]

You misunderstand. Before we can discuss your proposal at all you need to provide evidence Israel would be left in peace if it retreated to 1967 borders. You can start with explaining the Hamas charter, articles 13, 14 and 15 and how they would be ignored and why. Explain also article 31.

For your convenience, here's the link:


Please provide solid evidence Hamas would be willing to forego their founding document in exchange for peace. Without it your proposal has no value whatsoever.

McHrozni

Hmmm... we've been here before... after a fashion.

Bear in mind that the ultimate source of authority in the West Bank is not the PA, it is the PLO.

I'm going to modify McHrozni's question a little bit, and ask... "Would the PLO modify ITS covenant if it resulted in peace ? "

Well, we know the answer to that. One condition of being included in the Oslo peace accords was that The PLO modify its covenant to remove all the bits about Israel being an illegal state that must be destroyed by violence, and the bits about "no peace treaties".

We had the famous "exchange of letters" between Arafat and Yitzahk Rabin, in which Arafat promised to amend the PLO Covenant to remove the "offensive" bits. The Palestinian National Committee duly convened and approved unspecified changes to the Covenant, and called for a legal committee to draft a new Covenant.

The entire World cheered at this unprecedented move towards peace. (except for some people in the Federated States of Micronesia, who didn't hear about it until a year later)

Except... it was, of course, all a lie. Arafat lied to President Clinton, the European Union, and the World. The "committee" never sat, and the Covenant was never changed. (it is VERY similar to the HAMAS charter).

Even today, the PLO is committed to the destruction of Israel as a state, and committed to the use of violence to accomplish this, with peace treaties being explicitly repudiated. (again, very much like the HAMAS charter).

So, history would suggest that McHrozni's challenge is a reasonable one. The PLO does NOT have a track record of honoring its commitments, nor has it proven willing in the past to amend its constitution.

Then, as now, it is committed to the destruction of Israel.

With that in mind, the "Palestinian people" are doomed to a life of suffering for so long as the PLO remains in charge.