Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Grinder]

Only if that's the avenue you wish to follow. Guede's story was never believable, from it being a consensual meeting onward. If you follow the evidence and not add elements to the crime NOT suggested by the evidence, then it proves Guede (1) digitally penetrated Meredith and (2) achieved a level of sexual arousement sufficient to ejaculate and this is entirely consistent with a loner burglar, surprised by a resident, becoming violent resulting in a sexual assault and murder.

You can make things mean whatever you want. If I want to argue Martians were involved then I can claim the lack of DNA, other than Guede, proves this because we don't know how to detect Martian DNA. But in truth, it only means no one other than Guede was there.

Is there some equivalent for Godwin's law when Martians are mentioned? You now have a lone burglar profile that has them sexually assaulting a woman after murdering them brutally with blood everywhere and then ejaculating on the pillow you later(?) place under the body counting on P. Stefanoni being in charge.

The semen being Rudi's adds nothing to the detail of the case in the sense it does not preclude that others were involved. It being Rudi's wouldn't have slowed down the prosecution one bit.

If it were Rudi's, why didn't he make up a story about getting aroused before getting sick. Easy story and he knew they had found semen or at least that's what the media were saying.

 

[TruthCalls]

Is there some equivalent for Godwin's law when Martians are mentioned? You now have a lone burglar profile that has them sexually assaulting a woman after murdering them brutally with blood everywhere and then ejaculating on the pillow you later(?) place under the body counting on P. Stefanoni being in charge.

The semen being Rudi's adds nothing to the detail of the case in the sense it does not preclude that others were involved. It being Rudi's wouldn't have slowed down the prosecution one bit.

If it were Rudi's, why didn't he make up a story about getting aroused before getting sick. Easy story and he knew they had found semen or at least that's what the media were saying.

I don't think Godwin's Law applies here as no comparisons are being drawn. The use of Martians was merely to suggest any nonsensical argument can be made if we ignore evidence, logic and reason. I couldn't suggest Nazis as they certainly would have left forensic evidence we could detect.

You are randomly creating a series of events that you consider to be unlikely as a means of dismissing the evidence. However, crime scenes involving young women who have been sexually assaulted during the commission of a bloody murder, and where the lone killer has left behind forensic traces such as semen are as common as sea gulls are at the beach. The only question that remain is why Guede, who was historically non-violent, went from a B&E to murder. But since this exact scenario plays out countless times every day, I can accept that it did without understanding why.

The bottom line is it's Guede's DNA in Meredith's vagina; Guede's DNA on her jacket sleeve, on her bra, on her pocketbook; Guede's palm print in Meredith's blood; Guede's shoe prints in Meredith's blood. And aside from a debatable trace of Raffaele's DNA on a metal clasp, there is no forensic evidence of anyone else in the room. To suggest finding Guede's semen, if that's what it was, is anything other than further proof of Guede, and only Guede, committing this crime against Meredith is a deliberate diversion away from what the evidence is telling us.

 

[Grinder]

I don't think Godwin's Law applies here as no comparisons are being drawn. The use of Martians was merely to suggest any nonsensical argument can be made if we ignore evidence, logic and reason. I couldn't suggest Nazis as they certainly would have left forensic evidence we could detect.

You are randomly creating a series of events that you consider to be unlikely as a means of dismissing the evidence. However, crime scenes involving young women who have been sexually assaulted during the commission of a bloody murder, and where the lone killer has left behind forensic traces such as semen are as common as sea gulls are at the beach. The only question that remain is why Guede, who was historically non-violent, went from a B&E to murder. But since this exact scenario plays out countless times every day, I can accept that it did without understanding why.

There is nothing nonsensical in saying that Rudi's semen being found doesn't meaningfully or really at all change the case. It doesn't make it a solo effort anymore than it already is or isn't. Can you you provide say 20 of the exact scenario that have occurred in the last month? That is from a B&E to murder.

The bottom line is it's Guede's DNA in Meredith's vagina; Guede's DNA on her jacket sleeve, on her bra, on her pocketbook; Guede's palm print in Meredith's blood; Guede's shoe prints in Meredith's blood. And aside from a debatable trace of Raffaele's DNA on a metal clasp, there is no forensic evidence of anyone else in the room. To suggest finding Guede's semen, if that's what it was, is anything other than further proof of Guede, and only Guede, committing this crime against Meredith is a deliberate diversion away from what the evidence is telling us.

There were other DNAs found and fingerprints IIRC that were never identified. Once again the case I've been making is that there is as much evidence or more of Koko being involved rather than Raf and that should undo the need to make Rudi a solo operator.

You seem to forget that we are depending on evidence produced by an incompetent and perhaps corrupt ICSI and police force.

I think the idea that they didn't want to test the semen stain because if it was Rudi's that would weaken the case is less likely than your Martians.

ETA - obviously Godwin's law didn't apply that's why I ask if there was an equivalent for mentioning Martians.

 

[Ken Dine]

There is nothing nonsensical in saying that Rudi's semen being found doesn't meaningfully or really at all change the case. It doesn't make it a solo effort anymore than it already is or isn't.

HUH?!?!

Are you seriously claiming that finding the DNA of a different man in that semen wouldn't have changed a thing?

Granted, finding Guede's DNA in that semen wouldn't have changed much, but you don't neglect to analyze semen at a rape-murder scene under the belief that it likely belongs to the guy in custody.

You've been hobnobbing with 'Guilters' for far too long if your above stated claim really makes any sense to you.

 

[Ken Dine]

If it were Rudi's [semen], why didn't he make up a story about getting aroused before getting sick. Easy story and he knew they had found semen or at least that's what the media were saying.

I have found your problem (highlighted above).

Apparently, you feel that the mostly utter nonsense Mignini had leaked to the media was reliable enough to now spin crime theories around?

REALLY?

 

[Grinder]

HUH?!?!

Are you seriously claiming that finding the DNA of a different man in that semen wouldn't have changed a thing?

Granted, finding Guede's DNA in that semen wouldn't have changed much, but you don't neglect to analyze semen at a rape-murder scene under the belief that it likely belongs to the guy in custody.

You've been hobnobbing with 'Guilters' for far too long if your above stated claim really makes any sense to you.

My statement is that if the semen turned out to be Rudi's it wouldn't have made any difference in the case. If it had been an unidentified man's semen it would have turned the case on its head.

I have found your problem (highlighted above).

Apparently, you feel that the mostly utter nonsense Mignini had leaked to the media was reliable enough to now spin crime theories around?

REALLY?

Regardless of the truth or falseness of what the stories were reporting the fact is that in the Skype calls both Rudi and Giacomo, his friend, referred to reports that semen had been found. Yet, Rudi denied that he had left any behind. If he had left some behind, why not make up a story to cover the deposit? Why not say that he had been fooling around and got so excited he came a little?

I think all agree that Rudi's story was designed to cover himself in every way possible. He was offered the opportunity to make up a story about the semen yet he demurred, actually vehemently denied. Why?

 

[Strozzi]

Oh come, come. If ALL the Italian housemates knew to get a lawyer to visit the police, then it's crap to claim Raff or Papa Raff didn't know to get a lawyer.

Vixen, I suspect that Filomena got a lawyer not because she felt she needed to hire a lawyer, but because one landed in her lap. She (and Laura) were at the time legal assistants / apprentice lawyers in a law firm. When she received Amanda's call saying a burglar broke in through her window, I think Filomena called a colleague from her law firm and said "someone broke into my house" or "someone broke into my house, and the police might find my stash in my bedroom." Upon which her boss or colleague said "I'll handle it. I'll meet you there." And bingo, Filomena had a lawyer.

Papa Sollecito would have called a lawyer to deal with the police if he had been closer to the situation. His naive son, nope. Bad mistake.

 

[Grinder]

Vixen, I suspect that Filomena got a lawyer not because she felt she needed to hire a lawyer, but because one landed in her lap. She (and Laura) were at the time legal assistants / apprentice lawyers in a law firm. When she received Amanda's call saying a burglar broke in through her window, I think Filomena called a colleague from her law firm and said "someone broke into my house" or "someone broke into my house, and the police might find my stash in my bedroom." Upon which her boss or colleague said "I'll handle it. I'll meet you there." And bingo, Filomena had a lawyer.

Papa Sollecito would have called a lawyer to deal with the police if he had been closer to the situation. His naive son, nope. Bad mistake.

Must disagree. Remember Raf's sister was in the Carabinieri and his dad had access to lawyers, in fact one was called. It is not as if this case is unique in Italy. Frank wrote about all sorts of police irregularities.

It's not like dad couldn't afford a lawyer. The cop in Perugia is alleged to have given Raf a card of a lawyer or at least told him to get one.

Not calling a lawyer the first day isn't that odd but after that it is strange.

Why do you think the father wasn't close to the situation?

 

[Strozzi]

Must disagree. Remember Raf's sister was in the Carabinieri and his dad had access to lawyers, in fact one was called. It is not as if this case is unique in Italy. Frank wrote about all sorts of police irregularities.

It's not like dad couldn't afford a lawyer. The cop in Perugia is alleged to have given Raf a card of a lawyer or at least told him to get one.

Not calling a lawyer the first day isn't that odd but after that it is strange.

Why do you think the father wasn't close to the situation?

I think Dr. Sollecito probably thought the crime was committed by an intruder. Dr. Sollecito would have understood his son had met Meredith a few times, didn't know her well, wasn't involved with her except through the new-found American girlfriend, was being supportive of Amanda, and that Raffaele told the police what he knew. Raffaele was unaware the police suspected Amanda or him and probably assured his father that the police were asking about who Meredith knew.

 

[Grinder]

I think Dr. Sollecito probably thought the crime was committed by an intruder. Dr. Sollecito would have understood his son had met Meredith a few times, didn't know her well, wasn't involved with her except through the new-found American girlfriend, was being supportive of Amanda, and that Raffaele told the police what he knew. Raffaele was unaware the police suspected Amanda or him and probably assured his father that the police were asking about who Meredith knew.

Reasonable enough for the first couple days but by day three it seems even the kids were talking about having their brains squeezed etc. Remember they did bring in a lawyer early but he wasn't interested. That was beautiful legal advice.

 

[Ken Dine]

My statement is that if the semen turned out to be Rudi's it wouldn't have made any difference in the case. If it had been an unidentified man's semen it would have turned the case on its head.



Regardless of the truth or falseness of what the stories were reporting the fact is that in the Skype calls both Rudi and Giacomo, his friend, referred to reports that semen had been found. Yet, Rudi denied that he had left any behind. If he had left some behind, why not make up a story to cover the deposit? Why not say that he had been fooling around and got so excited he came a little?

I think all agree that Rudi's story was designed to cover himself in every way possible. He was offered the opportunity to make up a story about the semen yet he demurred, actually vehemently denied. Why?

OK, I see your point now. Guede and Giacomo did indeed discuss sperm the police had found during their Skype conversation:

RG:
And then, we saw each other at Meredith's house and we started talking...we started talking, and I, well, I tried, I mean I made a pass at her and she was willing [ci stava]. But in the end we didn't do anything because...she didn't have any condoms and neither did I.

GB:
Like...in the newspapers it says that...well, you must have done something with her if...

RG:
Yes but in fact, I'm telling you we did just ...oral stuff. Nothing, no penetration, because I didn't have a condom, we didn't do anything. And so it's all crap according to me that they said they found my...sperm...male sperm. Then I, that... it's not mine because we didn't do anything.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Rudy_Guede's_Skype_Conversation

Which further raises the question as to why the police never tested the semen's DNA, especially after the police had heard Guede deny it was his semen?

At some point around that Skype call the evidence against Raffaele started falling apart (his shoes, no DNA or prints of his found in Meredith's bedroom), which eventually sent the police scrambling back to the cottage in December looking for more evidence to test (the bra-clasp, etc).

Since the police were scrambling to build a case against Raffaele, I find it difficult to believe that the police never tested that semen stain, which surely had Guede's DNA.

So why was Guede so adamant the semen wasn't his during that November Skype call?

Maybe, Guede is as dumb as a brick and he didn't realize that his semen could be traced to him using DNA?

Maybe, Guede hadn't thought his story thru and Giacomo surprised him by mentioning it, so on the spur of the moment Guede denied he left sperm at the scene. After all, as far as Guede knew he was talking to a friend and didn't know the police were monitoring their Skype discussion, so Guede likely didn't feel anything he said to Giacomo that day couldn't later be changed to account for his sperm being there if he had to change his story later.

We also don't know what the Italian stories concerning that sperm actually said? They certainly had Guede's DNA to use for reference, and the media was already reporting they had found Guede's prints and other DNA in Meredith's bedroom by the time of that Skype call, so I'm assuming those Italian stories never mentioned that the semen stain had been tested and matched Guede's DNA, so perhaps Guede was going with the flow and he felt that the sperm wasn't traceable to him, for whatever reasons?

As it turned out, since the police claim they never tested the sperm, Guede never did need to change his story to account for his sperm being on Meredith's pillow, which is the larger mystery here.

 

[Ken Dine]

RG:
Yes but in fact, I'm telling you we did just ...oral stuff. Nothing, no penetration, because I didn't have a condom, we didn't do anything. And so it's all crap according to me that they said they found my...sperm...male sperm. Then I, that... it's not mine because we didn't do anything.

After reading that Skype transcript again, was that a Freudian slip made by Guede when he first referred to "MY" sperm and then suddenly changed it to "MALE" sperm?

If the media was then reporting only that the police had found "MALE" sperm at the crime scene, then that sure looks like a Freudian slip to me?

In any event, Guede's story was that he went into the bathroom, heard a knock at the door, he then heard Meredith answer the door, then some arguing. If another "MALE" had left semen on Meredith's pillow while Guede was in the bathroom, then that other man certainly got aroused quickly, especially with all the arguing going on.

Guede's story had so many holes it just couldn't be patched up with more lies, which is probably why Guede chose the Fast-Track process to avoid all that.

In short, while interesting, any inconsistencies said during that Skype call don't amount to much – you'd be better off reading tea leaves. .

 

[Grinder]

In any event, Guede's story was that he went into the bathroom, heard a knock at the door, he then heard Meredith answer the door, then some arguing. If another "MALE" had left semen on Meredith's pillow while Guede was in the bathroom, then that other man certainly got aroused quickly, especially with all the arguing going on.

I'm not sure why you think Rudi's story needs to be considered. He is adamant that it's not his, why? Without considering his fable, why would he not cover his sperm being found if he had in fact left any. He was aware of the "find" as the conversation makes clear so he had time to prepare a story.

Guede's story had so many holes it just couldn't be patched up with more lies, which is probably why Guede chose the Fast-Track process to avoid all that.

In short, while interesting, any inconsistencies said during that Skype call don't amount to much – you'd be better off reading tea leaves. .

The untested semen stain is one of the biggest remaining mysteries left. It is sure that if they tested it, it wasn't Raf's. If it was Rudi's there would be no reason not to release that fact, IMO.

The worst result would have been a third man. The whole case against Raf would have blown up and consequently Amanda as well.

There is no need to fit things into Rudi's account. He chose the FT trial because it gives reduced sentences and with his DNA, palm print and his admitting being there he couldn't have expected any result but guilty.

 

[Bill Williams]

The untested semen stain is one of the biggest remaining mysteries left. It is sure that if they tested it, it wasn't Raf's. If it was Rudi's there would be no reason not to release that fact, IMO.

The worst result would have been a third man. The whole case against Raf would have blown up and consequently Amanda as well.

There is no need to fit things into Rudi's account. He chose the FT trial because it gives reduced sentences and with his DNA, palm print and his admitting being there he couldn't have expected any result but guilty.

This.

The corollary to this is the way the convicting judges justified its non-testing. Outside of outright corruption by the like of Massei, someone must have got to them with the implications of forcing the testing.

It's just even harder to believe that the courts were that stupid.

Some of the very first guilter-noise is about this subject,shifting the responsibility of the non-testing to some imagined resistance from the defence. The most hilarious in that line of reasoning was one comment which wen something like this:

Ever since the stain was first sighted and photographed on Nov 2nd, the defence fought tooth and nail to prevent its testing.

There's still an outstanding prize-offer for anyone who can spot the problem with that.

 

[Grinder]

Gee Bill maybe I'll get some soggy biscuit with my coffee. It wasn't seen by the police or CSI, or at least they didn't disclose it but rather Vinci found it using a crimescope sometime later.

This.

The corollary to this is the way the convicting judges justified its non-testing. Outside of outright corruption by the like of Massei, someone must have got to them with the implications of forcing the testing.

It's just even harder to believe that the courts were that stupid.

Some of the very first guilter-noise is about this subject,shifting the responsibility of the non-testing to some imagined resistance from the defence. The most hilarious in that line of reasoning was one comment which wen something like this:

Ever since the stain was first sighted and photographed on Nov 2nd, the defence fought tooth and nail to prevent its testing.

There's still an outstanding prize-offer for anyone who can spot the problem with that.

 

[anglolawyer]

Male sperm? What other kinds are there?

 

[Grinder]

Male sperm? What other kinds are there?

Whales

 

[Grinder]

A pleasure to see you Anglo. Since you been busting my chops on the Kokomani proof, it made me recall your "the police erased PL's incoming text message" theory, which IIRC was based solely on one reporter's (since sent to Outer Mongolia I think) account that the police said they found texts instead of a text. I'm sure you had all sorts of other proof that I have forgotten.

 

[Numbers]

I'm not sure why you think Rudi's story needs to be considered. He is adamant that it's not his, why? Without considering his fable, why would he not cover his sperm being found if he had in fact left any. He was aware of the "find" as the conversation makes clear so he had time to prepare a story.



The untested semen stain is one of the biggest remaining mysteries left. It is sure that if they tested it, it wasn't Raf's. If it was Rudi's there would be no reason not to release that fact, IMO.
The worst result would have been a third man. The whole case against Raf would have blown up and consequently Amanda as well.
There is no need to fit things into Rudi's account. He chose the FT trial because it gives reduced sentences and with his DNA, palm print and his admitting being there he couldn't have expected any result but guilty.

This.

The corollary to this is the way the convicting judges justified its non-testing. Outside of outright corruption by the like of Massei, someone must have got to them with the implications of forcing the testing.

It's just even harder to believe that the courts were that stupid.

Some of the very first guilter-noise is about this subject,shifting the responsibility of the non-testing to some imagined resistance from the defence. The most hilarious in that line of reasoning was one comment which wen something like this:

Ever since the stain was first sighted and photographed on Nov 2nd, the defence fought tooth and nail to prevent its testing.

There's still an outstanding prize-offer for anyone who can spot the problem with that.

The case against Amanda and Raffaele would have been, if not demolished, then severely damaged if:

1. The putative semen stains on the pillow had been shown to be Guede's (or any other male who was not Raffaele), and/or

2. The blood stains in the downstairs flat of the cottage had been shown to be Guede's (or some other person, neither Amanda nor Raffaele), Meredith's, or a mix of the two.

Therefore, the police and prosecution either did not test the semen or suppressed those test results in furtherance of their official misconduct in wrongfully prosecuting Amanda and Raffaele. For the downstairs flat blood stains, the police and prosecution arbitrarily claimed that they were from a bleeding cat - one who jumped against a light switch and also left a roughly rectangular stain, similar to that from a knife handle, on a downstairs flat bed.

It should be reiterated that one of the semen stains on the pillow had the imprint of a shoe sole consistent with the shoes worn by Guede, suggesting a time frame for the deposit of the stain as relevant to the murder and not likely to have been left previously by Meredith's boyfriend. It is, of course, unlikely that Meredith would not have washed a pillowcase that had been semen-stained by any male, including her boyfriend, in a consensual encounter, contrary to the suggestion of the prosecution.

 

[Grinder]

The case against Amanda and Raffaele would have been, if not demolished, then severely damaged if:

1. The putative semen stains on the pillow had been shown to be Guede's (or any other male who was not Raffaele), and/or

Not at all.

2. The blood stains in the downstairs flat of the cottage had been shown to be Guede's (or some other person, neither Amanda nor Raffaele), Meredith's, or a mix of the two.

Nope.

Therefore, the police and prosecution either did not test the semen or suppressed those test results in furtherance of their official misconduct in wrongfully prosecuting Amanda and Raffaele. For the downstairs flat blood stains, the police and prosecution arbitrarily claimed that they were from a bleeding cat - one who jumped against a light switch and also left a roughly rectangular stain, similar to that from a knife handle, on a downstairs flat bed.

Are there test results on the downstairs blood? I know this was a hot topic a month ago.

The case against Amanda centered around her false accusation of Patrick. The knife DNA was the major forensic (hard) circumstantial evdience against her. The bra clasp serving the same function for Raf. In addition they had experts stating that the footprints were compatible with the kids. They have the kids lying about their alibi because Curatolo saw them and they have Quintavalle undoing the morning story. In addition they have the phones turned off and lies about daddy's call coming in. (Didn't the defense have a theory that the cat turned on Raf's phone? - those Italian cats).

While most every piece of the above is bogus, the courts bought into all of it and Rudi's semen or blood downstairs wouldn't have changed a thing.

ETA - the shoe print may well prove again that Rudi was there but it doesn't prove it was his semen. It could have been the third man's and if so would have satisfied Locard.