Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Anode]

Unfortunately it takes three or four experiences like this with the guilter fake-Wiki before even the best of us sees it for what it is. Best ignored.

Indeed it's run by folks with, shall we say, questionable credentials - and I'll leave it at that given that mods here protect him.

I was actually being sarcastic about the irony of it.

 

[Grinder]

Three compatibles equals a match and now two nothings apparently amounts to a circumstantial case? If you are going to use the extremely low evidence threshold that was used against Raf you can implicate anybody.

Didn't Rudy walk to the cottage? I thought he was seen in the car park vid. Walking.

He was walking around after being brought there by Koko.

Two nothings? His phone was pinged. He admitted being there (probably could find you using that against Rudi) and perhaps knew things that weren't widely known (it has been said and I might find a TCN that includes it ). His car may have been the mystery dark colored car found and he became know or ala Curatolo already known as a drug dealer. He apparently worked at Rudi's foster dad's farm and likely they knew each other better than Amanda knew Rudi and much better than Rudi knew Raf.

Please tell me you don't think the evidence that Raf was Rudi's accomplice is more definitive!

 

[Bill Williams]

I was actually being sarcastic about the irony of it.

Some of the guilter usual-suspects should have been, and were congratulated for their translations - particularly the Massei motivations report. It was remarkably accurate (from what I know of such things, which is admittedly little) and did not smooth over the more troubling parts which demonstrated Massei's imaginings and unfounded biases.

Nencini's report was translated more or less accurately, although they did boot the translation of "osmotica". (Or was that the Chieffi report?) But in the main, one was reading a translation which was relatively free from what one might expect - undue bias.

**The**murderofmeredithkercher fake-wiki, not so much. It is hardly worth consulting because one never knows if it is the agenda of that bunch or what.

As well as the irony as you note..... it is best set aside if one want to understand the set of events which led to the horrible murder of an innocent and the subsequent wrongful prosecution of two others.

 

[Grinder]

Of course it would change things. Guede' story precludes him for depositing semen. He claims he was fooling around, goes to the bathroom, and comes out only after Meredith has already been attacked. If it is his semen, then this proves his sexual assault against Meredith went far further than he claims, making the chance anyone else was there even more remote.

No it wouldn't change the case as Rudi was convicted and his story wasn't believed. But if one wanted to believe his story all that the semen proved is that he had a pre-ejaculation while fooling around. The fact that he denied any ejaculation in his Skype calls leads me to believe it wasn't his. Be that as it may, if it was his it would only be more red meat for the sex game gone bad theory.

I find it interesting that stories told that are almost universally considered untrue are then used as if they need to be considered. Koko's story, with the exception of knowing things not public, has no bearing on anything in assessing his possible involvement. In the case of Rudi since they didn't find his sperm/semen in Meredith I don't see why, if it was his, it "proves his sexual assault against Meredith went far further than he claims"

 

[Anode]

He was walking around after being brought there by Koko.

Two nothings? His phone was pinged. He admitted being there (probably could find you using that against Rudi) and perhaps knew things that weren't widely known (it has been said and I might find a TCN that includes it ). His car may have been the mystery dark colored car found and he became know or ala Curatolo already known as a drug dealer. He apparently worked at Rudi's foster dad's farm and likely they knew each other better than Amanda knew Rudi and much better than Rudi knew Raf.

Please tell me you don't think the evidence that Raf was Rudi's accomplice is more definitive!

I actually think Grinder makes a decent case here. Maybe he drove Rudy away from the scene. But of course the police never checked Kokomani's car for blood did they.

 

[Grinder]

By Nick Squires in Rome 9:19PM BST 17 Oct 2008
The fresh evidence came to light as Rudy Guede, 21, one of three people accused of killing Miss Kercher in the hill town of Perugia last year, returns to court where he is on trial for murder.
The witness, a mechanic called Gianfranco Lombardi, had been called out to recover a broken down vehicle near the cottage in which the Leeds University student was found stabbed to death on the night of November 1.
While loading the vehicle onto his truck, Lombardi noticed a "dark car" parked in the sloping driveway which leads down to the cottage, on Perugia's Via della Pergola, a winding lane with sweeping views of the Umbrian countryside.
Raffaele Sollecito, an Italian IT graduate who along with Guede and American student Amanda Knox is accused of murdering Miss Kercher, owned a black car at the time of the murder.
But a prosecution witness, an Albanian immigrant named Hekuran Kokomani, who says he saw the three accused outside the cottage on the night of the murder, also drove a dark coloured car.

How about them apples Anglo?

You don't think it was Raf's do you?

 

[carbonjam72]

I actually think Grinder makes a decent case here. Maybe he drove Rudy away from the scene. But of course the police never checked Kokomani's car for blood did they.

Weren't Meredith's phones dumped in a garden, while Rudy was supposedly walking home through a gate in the wall?

And the black man seen on the steps running away from the cottage at about 1030pm (IIRC), wasn't that also supposed to be Rudy?

I don't see any reason to believe Koko or anyone else was involved, nor to believe Rudy was a fence, nor any of the other unsupported speculation that seems to keep popping up.

 

[Grinder]

I actually think Grinder makes a decent case here. Maybe he drove Rudy away from the scene. But of course the police never checked Kokomani's car for blood did they.

Thanks. I don't have any idea if they did or didn't. Did they check all the phone pings in the area? Did they look at him as a possible suspect at all?

The point remains this piece of circumstantial evidence, the multiple attackers, in a case that had no direct evidence doesn't point only to the kids. It is not necessary to prove it was a solo attack.

 

[anglolawyer]

He was walking around after being brought there by Koko.

Two nothings? His phone was pinged. He admitted being there (probably could find you using that against Rudi) and perhaps knew things that weren't widely known (it has been said and I might find a TCN that includes it ). His car may have been the mystery dark colored car found and he became know or ala Curatolo already known as a drug dealer. He apparently worked at Rudi's foster dad's farm and likely they knew each other better than Amanda knew Rudi and much better than Rudi knew Raf.

Please tell me you don't think the evidence that Raf was Rudi's accomplice is more definitive!

In neither case does the ragbag of surmise, innuendo and speculation cross the strenuous Italian threshold of seriousness, gravity and, er .. the other one .

 

[anglolawyer]

By Nick Squires in Rome 9:19PM BST 17 Oct 2008
The fresh evidence came to light as Rudy Guede, 21, one of three people accused of killing Miss Kercher in the hill town of Perugia last year, returns to court where he is on trial for murder.
The witness, a mechanic called Gianfranco Lombardi, had been called out to recover a broken down vehicle near the cottage in which the Leeds University student was found stabbed to death on the night of November 1.
While loading the vehicle onto his truck, Lombardi noticed a "dark car" parked in the sloping driveway which leads down to the cottage, on Perugia's Via della Pergola, a winding lane with sweeping views of the Umbrian countryside.
Raffaele Sollecito, an Italian IT graduate who along with Guede and American student Amanda Knox is accused of murdering Miss Kercher, owned a black car at the time of the murder.
But a prosecution witness, an Albanian immigrant named Hekuran Kokomani, who says he saw the three accused outside the cottage on the night of the murder, also drove a dark coloured car.

How about them apples Anglo?

You don't think it was Raf's do you?

Egad! What a breakthrough. They should hypnotise Lombardi and get the reg. number. I'm surprised you don't have him in the frame.

Don't all cars look dark in the dark?

 

[Strozzi]

Police did, for they found the bloody tissues and knife too blunt to be the murder weapon.

Vixen, did the police find the knife that was used to stab the victim in the throat - the "other" knife the police claim exists that fit the stab-wound dimensions?

Did the police find hypodermic needles on or near the property? What other I'VE drug user residue did they find?

Curatolo testified that he customarily relieved himself near the property. Did the police find Curatolo's toilet spots and recover any of his (blood-tinged) toilet paper? (Yes, reader, this drugged tramp who habitually pooped around the cottage property is Mignini's star witness! He was the go-to guy when they needed testimony for several major crimes.)

 

[Grinder]

In neither case does the ragbag of surmise, innuendo and speculation cross the strenuous Italian threshold of seriousness, gravity and, er .. the other one .

My, my, my

With the enactment of C.P.P. Article 192, our legislature has set forth the rules for assessing evidence in a criminal trial. Circumstantial evidence is dealt with in the second paragraph of the Article, which specifies that “The existence of a fact cannot be inferred [desunta] from circumstantial evidence unless the latter is serious, precise, and consistent [gravi, precisi, e concordanti].”

Seriousness and gravity are the same thing. I'll help with flash cards if you'd like.

 

[Strozzi]

Well you saw the cctv footage as referred to by Randy which shows several passersby stopping in their tracks at the car park. People usually do this for auditory reasons, assuming they were looking ahead, and thus it wouldn't be for a visual event.

Vixen, Prosecutor Mignini was in charge of the investigation. He and inept police investigators should have investigated those potential leads. They either failed to do so, or did investigate and concluded it was nothing related to the crime. Without police reports to go on, we (and more importantly, the defense) know nothing about what prompted people in the garage to stop and look.

For all we know, people stopped to look at a stray dog or cat.

Of course, if you believe Stefanoni's account of the cat distraction in the downstair's flat, we must infer the cat was probably in the garage to deliberately distract people while Raf, Amanda, and Rudi were entering the cottage.

 

[Grinder]

Egad! What a breakthrough. They should hypnotise Lombardi and get the reg. number. I'm surprised you don't have him in the frame.

Don't all cars look dark in the dark?

Let's see. A totally reliable witness says he saw a dark car parked in the cottage's drive and Koko drove a dark colored Golf. So the car clearly could possibly be Koko's therefore it is probable that it was.

No all cars don't look dark in the dark and this man is a professional in the car business.

 

[anglolawyer]

Let's see. A totally reliable witness says he saw a dark car parked in the cottage's drive and Koko drove a dark colored Golf. So the car clearly could possibly be Koko's therefore it is probable that it was.

No all cars don't look dark in the dark and this man is a professional in the car business.

In that case, why didn't he say it was a dark coloured golf? Let him be known hereafter as Mr Flaky.

 

[Strozzi]

Let's see. A totally reliable witness says he saw a dark car parked in the cottage's drive and Koko drove a dark colored Golf. So the car clearly could possibly be Koko's therefore it is probable that it was.

No all cars don't look dark in the dark and this man is a professional in the car business.

I just hope for Koko's sake that his Volkswagon isn't equipped with a diesel engine. Given Koko's poor performance in court, he may not cope well if he learns his Golf is being recalled!

 

[Ken Dine]

Of course it would change things. Guede' story precludes him for depositing semen. He claims he was fooling around, goes to the bathroom, and comes out only after Meredith has already been attacked. If it is his semen, then this proves his sexual assault against Meredith went far further than he claims, making the chance anyone else was there even more remote.

While your scenario is seemingly logical by my standards, the Italians instead felt that the semen stain could have been innocently deposited earlier on Meredith's pillow by her downstairs lover.

Hey, I'll bet your girlfriend is always complaining about you leaving semen on her pillow, right?

Helpful tip:

When I go on a date I always take a condom and a box of Tide in case the condom breaks.

Then (as the prosecution's theory goes), apparently that old (innocent) semen stain coincidentally just happened to be positioned under the crotch area of Meredith's lifeless body.

Italians obviously have a different thought process, or is it only their judges?

E.g., Italian judges feel that you can't rape a woman who is wearing tight jeans since she would need to help you remove her tight jeans, which is implied consent.

You can't make this stuff up!

 

[Ken Dine]

By Nick Squires in Rome 9:19PM BST 17 Oct 2008
The fresh evidence came to light as Rudy Guede, 21, one of three people accused of killing Miss Kercher in the hill town of Perugia last year, returns to court where he is on trial for murder.

The witness, a mechanic called Gianfranco Lombardi, had been called out to recover a broken down vehicle near the cottage in which the Leeds University student was found stabbed to death on the night of November 1.
While loading the vehicle onto his truck, Lombardi noticed a "dark car" parked in the sloping driveway which leads down to the cottage, on Perugia's Via della Pergola, a winding lane with sweeping views of the Umbrian countryside.

Raffaele Sollecito, an Italian IT graduate who along with Guede and American student Amanda Knox is accused of murdering Miss Kercher, owned a black car at the time of the murder.

But a prosecution witness, an Albanian immigrant named Hekuran Kokomani, who says he saw the three accused outside the cottage on the night of the murder, also drove a dark coloured car.

How about them apples Anglo?

You don't think it was Raf's do you?

Ya, an old Nick Squires' quote proves what about that mystery car?

When we were discussing that woman who claimed a man bumped into her boyfriend around the time of the murder as they descended the stairs, and you were the one who raised her testimony as perhaps relevant.

That woman testified that she couldn't see the face of the brute who had bumped into her boyfriend, but she was very clear about seeing the tow-truck as well as the car parked on the cottage's driveway, that you now feel is relevant.

That woman testified that as they walked by that parked car she clearly saw a man on his phone, and a woman with a child in that car, which doesn't describe Raffaele's car.

 

[Grinder]

In that case, why didn't he say it was a dark coloured golf? Let him be known hereafter as Mr Flaky.

Finally you make a point of sorts. He had already identified the car he was looking for which ended his prime professional responsibility. As a pro he naturally was required to find cars at night and therefore was able to distinguish between the dark car he saw and the white car Rudi lied, lied, lied about. Did I remember that correctly? Didn't ole Rude say it looked like a dealer's car?

ETQA "As I arrived in front of the house, I noticed a white car with headlights on, and a Drug-Dealer I often saw on Garibaldi Avenue, but I didn’t make much of this, and I went into the yard" sounds like a dark Golf with Koko at the wheel to me.

 

[TruthCalls]

No it wouldn't change the case as Rudi was convicted and his story wasn't believed. But if one wanted to believe his story all that the semen proved is that he had a pre-ejaculation while fooling around. The fact that he denied any ejaculation in his Skype calls leads me to believe it wasn't his. Be that as it may, if it was his it would only be more red meat for the sex game gone bad theory.
I find it interesting that stories told that are almost universally considered untrue are then used as if they need to be considered. Koko's story, with the exception of knowing things not public, has no bearing on anything in assessing his possible involvement. In the case of Rudi since they didn't find his sperm/semen in Meredith I don't see why, if it was his, it "proves his sexual assault against Meredith went far further than he claims"

Only if that's the avenue you wish to follow. Guede's story was never believable, from it being a consensual meeting onward. If you follow the evidence and not add elements to the crime NOT suggested by the evidence, then it proves Guede (1) digitally penetrated Meredith and (2) achieved a level of sexual arousement sufficient to ejaculate and this is entirely consistent with a loner burglar, surprised by a resident, becoming violent resulting in a sexual assault and murder.

You can make things mean whatever you want. If I want to argue Martians were involved then I can claim the lack of DNA, other than Guede, proves this because we don't know how to detect Martian DNA. But in truth, it only means no one other than Guede was there.