Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Grinder]

That's a level of analysis that we'll never know. Truth is rarely a show of hands exercise. Given all the eddys and currents of the way the B&M report was put together, there is reason to believe it may have been put together by a committee. Give here, take there. Section 9.2 tries to set up what is to come as a hypothetical "synoptic" synthesis of both a guilt and innocence narrative, then the writer of 9.3ff forgets to stress that what follows is exactly that....

Or maybe worse, that the author of 9.3ff thought that the author of 9.2 was out to lunch and decided to sabotage it.....

Who knows.

You could be entirely correct. The **majority** of the five could have dug in their heels that judicial truths are by definition factual truths, and all the other two (maybe Marasca and Bruno??)could do was roll their eyes and try to fudge the rest to give the whole motivations report some semblance of internal-integrity....

You could very well be correct. one thing for sure is that the Marasca report is recognizably Italian.

Bill it's not my opinion it's someone you have had faith in and I'll bet I can where you have touted his work. This isn't PQ, M, PG or Kermit - it's Luca.

 

[Grinder]

Says who?

A ping means nothing other than that he passed by assuming the crack police screwed up their triangulation. Try putting him in the house.

Yes and if a video surfaced of Amanda in front of Quintavalle's store it wouldn't prove anything just that she forgot she had been there.

He was in the area at the time of the murder. He ran to Albania and when he returned he went to an attorney and arranged a meeting with Mignini. Why would he do that?

Why would he himself admit knowing the murderer even if just slightly?

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill it's not my opinion it's someone you have had faith in and I'll bet I can where you have touted his work. This isn't PQ, M, PG or Kermit - it's Luca.

Please reread post #3291.

 

[anglolawyer]

Yes and if a video surfaced of Amanda in front of Quintavalle's store it wouldn't prove anything just that she forgot she had been there.

He was in the area at the time of the murder. He ran to Albania and when he returned he went to an attorney and arranged a meeting with Mignini. Why would he do that?

Why would he himself admit knowing the murderer even if just slightly?

When did he make this admission? According to you he was involved in the murder. Where's the evidence? Evidence, not surmise. What is your suggestion? That Mignini did a deal in which he would go easy on Koko if he turned in the kids? And you criticise the true crime writers. Explain why Koko's story was so totally nuts that nobody believed him.

 

[Vixen]

Wow. What a mess of factoids. All packed into one neat package.

First off, there was no mixed blood. Even Harry Rag has given up on that cut-and-pasted factoid.

Second of all:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_53971524324c05488e.jpg[/qimg]

Third of all..... since when was the door locked "from the inside"? I'm now in trouble with js202, but you're now inventing things even the few remaining guilters would be embarrassed to put forth.

You think I should be embarrassed, when you make assertions suggesting you're a member of a cult wherein you have to obey your leader and toe the party line. "Bill", please try to exercise some critical faculties and think for yourself.

Amanda was bleeding the same time as Mez.

 

[Vixen]

Koko's involvement is a non-starter. First and foremost he's a complete liar, up to and including his claim he was offered money. If there is **any** evidence that Koko knows anything, it has not been shown in the last 8 years.

Eight years. He thinks he saw Knox weeks' before she'd arrived in Italy. Why would you believe anything he says - except to be able to cherry-pick guilt-sounding things?

I am not saying I believe him. The police seem to have, though.

 

[Grinder]

When did he make this admission? According to you he was involved in the murder. Where's the evidence? Evidence, not surmise. What is your suggestion? That Mignini did a deal in which he would go easy on Koko if he turned in the kids? And you criticise the true crime writers. Explain why Koko's story was so totally nuts that nobody believed him.

According to Italian law he had to be believed to some extent in order to testify. I think he could have been involved in the murder or just been the driver that delivered Rudi and Mr. X. The evidence is circumstantial. He was there. He knew Rudi. He was a drug dealer. He used a lawyer to set up a meeting with Mignini, as a farm worker that's some expense. He left days after the murder and cooled his heels in lovely Albania. (Wasn't fleeing a guilty sign by Rudi?)

I criticize people that use True Crime Novels as a source for facts without corroboration. I have used IIP's amandaknoxcase.com site as a source for the phone ping having occurred. See the difference?

 

[Ken Dine]

Vixen, on what basis do you claim that the police by the night of Nov 5/6 had not identified Rudy (as a person of interest)? Certainly the 4 guys living downstairs provided police with the names of people who had been around or on the property. If the police thought there was African hair at the crime scene, then the police would have had an interest in Rudy.

While I agree with you in principle, that the police were looking for an African perp due to the five African hairs found in Meredith's bedroom, Guede wasn't on their radar until later.

While the police had certainly heard about another African guy named "Baron" prior to Nov 5/6 (both from Amanda and the boys downstairs), by Nov 5/6 the police already had an African suspect in their sights, Lumumba.

The reason why Lumumba quickly became the focus of the police was due to the fact that the police had suspected Amanda early on, and since Lumumba was the only African guy the police were aware of that Amanda had a relationship with, consequently Lumumba quickly became African suspect #1.

PROOF – on Nov 6th the police had proudly announce "CASE CLOSED" after arresting Amanda, Raffaele & Lumumba. Having a 2nd African suspect running loose on Nov 6th wouldn't have made any sense to their running theory of the crime, nor would their "CASE CLOSED" announcement have made any sense with Guede still running around loose.

By Nov 7th and 8th the police started receiving back forensic evidence excluding Lumumba, which naturally sent the police scrambling to identify the other African guy mentioned by Amanda and other witnesses, but since they only knew him by the nickname "Baron," that impeded the investigation for several more days.

Eventually, the police finally figured out that the "Baron" was Guede, and the rest is history.

 

[bagels]

Amanda was bleeding the same time as Mez.

Marasca covers this one. While Amanda was standing outside the murder room screaming, Rudy came out covered in blood and Amanda accidentally got some of Meredith's blood on her hand posthumously when he shook her hand and said "cover for me, blame it on another black man" and realizing that a hardline prosecutor like Mignini might be on the case and could get the wrong idea about all this she vigorously washed it off in her sink shedding her own DNA in the process.

 

[JREF2010]

He was in the area at the time of the murder. He ran to Albania and when he returned he went to an attorney and arranged a meeting with Mignini. Why would he do that?

Why would he himself admit knowing the murderer even if just slightly?

this case has enough whacko stuff to go on forever.

i wish someone would re-interview these people off the record, and in more depth, to get clarity. without the fear of Migninni or Stephony arresting them, or worse they die in police custody later like Toto and the others Frank wrote about.

Interview sane sober people, ex. Alessandra Formica, and clarify what was going on with the Tow Truck and the guy running by, bumping into her boyfriend... where are the parking garage videos of this occurrence? was the guy running away the same clothing as the one seen walking towards the cottage?

and Koko had some strange details, right?

Why would he go in on his own to talk? was he afraid of Rudy selling him out. Was Koko the watchman at the end of the driveway, as Rudy was burglarizing?

 

[Bill Williams]

You think I should be embarrassed, when you make assertions suggesting you're a member of a cult wherein you have to obey your leader and toe the party line. "Bill", please try to exercise some critical faculties and think for yourself.

Amanda was bleeding the same time as Mez.

Since the acquittals last March, the cult leader panicked and tried to double the fees. I may be a mindless believe-anything-I'm-told, but I'll be damned if I'll pay for the conspiracy. Marriott owes me.

 

[anglolawyer]

According to Italian law he had to be believed to some extent in order to testify. I think he could have been involved in the murder or just been the driver that delivered Rudi and Mr. X. The evidence is circumstantial. He was there. He knew Rudi. He was a drug dealer. He used a lawyer to set up a meeting with Mignini, as a farm worker that's some expense. He left days after the murder and cooled his heels in lovely Albania. (Wasn't fleeing a guilty sign by Rudi?)

I criticize people that use True Crime Novels as a source for facts without corroboration. I have used IIP's amandaknoxcase.com site as a source for the phone ping having occurred. See the difference?

What I see is a big claim based on small evidence (with 'small' being an exaggeration). Please back up your claim that Koko knew Rudy. How big is the area included in your word 'there' where I highlighted it. Are you suggesting he came forward with a story about bin liners and olives and Mignini believed him?

 

[Grinder]

this case has enough whacko stuff to go on forever.

i wish someone would re-interview these people off the record, and in more depth, to get clarity. without the fear of Migninni or Stephony arresting them, or worse they die in police custody later like Toto and the others Frank wrote about.

Interview sane sober people, ex. Alessandra Formica, and clarify what was going on with the Tow Truck and the guy running by, bumping into her boyfriend... where are the parking garage videos of this occurrence? was the guy running away the same clothing as the one seen walking towards the cottage?

and Koko had some strange details, right?

Why would he go in on his own to talk? was he afraid of Rudy selling him out. Was Koko the watchman at the end of the driveway, as Rudy was burglarizing?

It would be great if a non True Crime Novelist would do as you suggest.

That is at the heart of what bugs me about this. Why would he go to the prosecutor? Crazy right, but he hired a lawyer first. Maybe more cagey than crazy.

He wasn't really there but decided to expose himself to the PLE and say he was there, really? I don't think so.

 

[Grinder]

What I see is a big claim based on small evidence (with 'small' being an exaggeration). Please back up your claim that Koko knew Rudy. How big is the area included in your word 'there' where I highlighted it. Are you suggesting he came forward with a story about bin liners and olives and Mignini believed him?

Hmmm, big being a lie? Well no one versed has ever doubted that he was there. Hey Mignini believed Quintavalle, Nara, Curatolo and Novelli.

 

[Vixen]

What I see is a big claim based on small evidence (with 'small' being an exaggeration). Please back up your claim that Koko knew Rudy. How big is the area included in your word 'there' where I highlighted it. Are you suggesting he came forward with a story about bin liners and olives and Mignini believed him?

From:http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Hekuran_Kokomani's_Testimony_(English)

During cross-examination more details of Kokomani's conversation with Rudy Guede were developed. Kokomani asked Rudy about the behaviour of the other two and Guede told Kokomani not to pay attention to them that they were just drunk. When asked about the knife Rudy said it was for a party at the cottage to cut the cake. Kokomani also told the court that Guede told the other two to leave Kokomani alone because he knew him. Kokomani explains that Guede had come to the farm he worked at once and that was the only time they met.Kokomani also testified that he heard a scream from the cottage but that Guede told him that was the music from the party.
------

Do keep up!

 

[Grinder]

Marasca covers this one. While Amanda was standing outside the murder room screaming, Rudy came out covered in blood and Amanda accidentally got some of Meredith's blood on her hand posthumously when he shook her hand and said "cover for me, blame it on another black man" and realizing that a hardline prosecutor like Mignini might be on the case and could get the wrong idea about all this she vigorously washed it off in her sink shedding her own DNA in the process.

Rudi instructed her to specifically blame Patrick - the recording will forthcoming at the same time as her interrogation recordings.

ETA - CD writes that Kokomani knew Rudi slightly. There you have it.

 

[Grinder]

From:http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Hekuran_Kokomani's_Testimony_(English)

During cross-examination more details of Kokomani's conversation with Rudy Guede were developed. Kokomani asked Rudy about the behaviour of the other two and Guede told Kokomani not to pay attention to them that they were just drunk. When asked about the knife Rudy said it was for a party at the cottage to cut the cake. Kokomani also told the court that Guede told the other two to leave Kokomani alone because he knew him. Kokomani explains that Guede had come to the farm he worked at once and that was the only time they met.Kokomani also testified that he heard a scream from the cottage but that Guede told him that was the music from the party.
------

Do keep up!

And as we know a single meeting with someone is all that is needed to later have a conspiracy to murder, certainly enough to burgle together.

Would there have been a good reason for Kokomani to expand on how well he knew Rudi?

ETA - CD writes that Kokomani knew Rudi slightly. There you have it.

 

[Vixen]

Since the acquittals last March, the cult leader panicked and tried to double the fees. I may be a mindless believe-anything-I'm-told, but I'll be damned if I'll pay for the conspiracy. Marriott owes me.

Phew! As long as they don't keep you up until 4:00am chanting mantras and feed you on bread and gruel.

I should think you'll all be quite rich soon, with all that compo coming your way from various innocent projects.

 

[anglolawyer]

Hmmm, big being a lie? Well no one versed has ever doubted that he was there. Hey Mignini believed Quintavalle, Nara, Curatolo and Novelli.

Once more, what do you mean by 'there'? Is it: (1) in the house at the time of the murder or (2) in the area covered by the cell towers or (3) something else?

Once more, how do you know Kokomani knew Guede?

From:http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Hekuran_Kokomani's_Testimony_(English)

During cross-examination more details of Kokomani's conversation with Rudy Guede were developed. Kokomani asked Rudy about the behaviour of the other two and Guede told Kokomani not to pay attention to them that they were just drunk. When asked about the knife Rudy said it was for a party at the cottage to cut the cake. Kokomani also told the court that Guede told the other two to leave Kokomani alone because he knew him. Kokomani explains that Guede had come to the farm he worked at once and that was the only time they met.Kokomani also testified that he heard a scream from the cottage but that Guede told him that was the music from the party.
------

Do keep up!

So the evidence that proves Koko knew Guede comes from Kokomani. Well, well, well. Grinder is smarter than you. He knows better than to make such a fool of himself (he pins his faith instead on my not noticing - or not caring - when he ignores my questions). Is that evidence corroborated? If not, why should anyone believe it in view of the fact no one believed anything this nut case said?

 

[Vixen]

And as we know a single meeting with someone is all that is needed to later have a conspiracy to murder, certainly enough to burgle together.

Would there have been a good reason for Kokomani to expand on how well he knew Rudi?

ETA - CD writes that Kokomani knew Rudi slightly. There you have it.

Have you considered Kokomani might be telling the truth (apart from not incriminating himself)? Could be, he felt simple human disgust at the crime and being chased down the road by Knife Boy left him with a grudge.