Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[LondonJohn]

Yes, it fits with what I wrote. During the struggle, Rudi, behind her, grabbed/wrenched her arms from behind.

Rudy charged at her and she turned or twisted to get away, resulting in him being behind her. He held her from behind, putting his knife to the side of her neck. The knife scraped/cut (sliced) her neck (the first cut). They struggled and Rudy side-sliced and stabbed her neck (and throat) again. He constrained and struggled with her as she went to the floor, still struggling, bleeding profusely, in terror, flailing as best she could. She never fought him from the front, face to face - she was never in position to scratch or claw him, thus no evidence (skin) was under her nails.

He evidently took her by surprise. It could have been 2 seconds from the time he charged through the doorway to when he grabbed her and she, startled, tried to twist away. Meredith did not have a headstart to pull out furniture (chair, lamp, nightstand) to keep him back or to grab objects (book, purse) to throw at him. Total surprise, She never had a chance to go into her Bruce Lee stance.

All her minor injuries - bruises, nicks, cuts, scrapes - are consistent with her twisting, resisting, flailing struggle as he attempted to contain her to the floor.

And I'd go further and say that the high likelihood is that the minor injuries are entirely consistent with the initial physical struggle, until Guede gets behind Kercher with his knife at her throat and forces her down to the ground. I believe that it was at this point that Kercher stopped struggling and became passively compliant: Guede had a sharp knife at her throat, and there was probably also a simple communication along the lines of: "Struggle and I'll kill you - don't struggle and I won't use the knife on you".

This (IMO) is what enabled Guede to control Kercher sufficiently to initiate the sexual assault with one hand while keeping the knife at her throat with the other hand. But (again IMO) once Guede sexually violated Kercher, she (perhaps reflexively) reacted to it by struggling and/or screaming, and this is what prompted Guede to inflict the fatal stab wounds to the neck.

 

[Bill Williams]

No, not as nutty. Had Massei had regard only to the forensic evidence (which is the point I was making in reply to the one Vixen was making) he would not have been able to exclude the possibility of a single attacker. He said so himself in plain words which I quoted. Kokomani's story OTOH is utterly ridiculous and there is not a shred of evidence to prove that he was present or that he knew Guede but, if you want to believe kooky things that are entirely without foundation you will certainly be in good company on this thread.

The essence of the creation of a "judicial fact" (in a pejorative sense) is the way Massei in his 2010 report assembles the notion "multiple attackers". His was the only court (IIRC) which heard evidence on the subject, and even he admits that the forensics points one way, but that he'll conclude multiple attackers anyway, "on other grounds".

For my money those other grounds are, themselves, issues which had been judicially created. It's the height of deciding something against the evidence, simply because other judges/prosecutors surmised the way they had.

 

[Bill Williams]

Btw,I do think Koko was there but as part of the crime not a witness.

Why? What is the evidence for this?

There is none. Otherwise there is no reason at all to believe anything Koko said on any of the other matters, either. Best just to put him aside.

 

[Mike1711]

Well, her self-description is, "stupid liar".

Your reply contradicts Mignini completely. He described AK as a cunning, calculating and clever person. Something like a fox?? A female fox perhaps?

 

[Mike1711]

We were not talking about convicting judges, we were talking about judges "who ruled there was more than one attacker". In fact, Micheli said Rudy was only a bit-part accessory and named Amanda and Raff as the co-killers. Massei thought Rudy the lead killer, with Amanda dealing the fatal blow. Massei having heard all of the expert witnesses, accepted there were multiple attackers.

Your maths is terrible. None of those named said, "single attacker".

It doesn't matter how many judges rule on how many attackers there were. What matters is that there is no science on this planet that can determine the number of attackers as an incontrovertible fact.

However what is a fact is this. Knox and Sollecito, in whatever scenario you wish to propose, were uninvolved.

Of course pure logic, based on evidence, suggests there was but one, and his name is Rudy.

Let's be clear! Nobody, absolutely nobody can say that it was proven to be one, three, ten or a hundred. This lies outside of science and certainly outside of law.

 

[Grinder]

No, not as nutty. Had Massei had regard only to the forensic evidence (which is the point I was making in reply to the one Vixen was making) he would not have been able to exclude the possibility of a single attacker. He said so himself in plain words which I quoted. Kokomani's story OTOH is utterly ridiculous and there is not a shred of evidence to prove that he was present or that he knew Guede but, if you want to believe kooky things that are entirely without foundation you will certainly be in good company on this thread.

Geez Anglo.

From amandaknoxcase.com an IIP site November 1st timeline.

20.01 Hekuran Kokomani’s cell phone pings off a tower servicing the cottage.[

He knew Rudi from the farm he worked at.

 

[Grinder]

My maths is fine. I don't think anyone really believes there was more than one attacker. Lalli didn't. Bruno and Marasca didn't - not really.

According to Cheli B&M did believe in multiple attackers. I'll go with his assessment.

 

[Grinder]

RW posted this in 2013:

Originally Posted by Perugia Shock
Also there's a bit of confusion with full or partial fingerprints or stains but at the end we may say that of these signs 97 could be said to be fingerprints. 47 belonged to Meredith Kercher, 17 to Rudy Guede, 5 to Raffaele Sollecito, 5 to Filomena Romanelli, 5 to Laura Mezzetti, 4 to Giacomo Silenzi, 1 to Amanda Knox, 13 were not attributed to anyone.
<snip>
If we then start to finally consider those 13 unattributed fingerprints, together with the unknown DNA detected, and the other clues that we have seen (two male people running) we understand again that the scenario could be really different from the depicted one and insisting on Amanda and Raffaele maybe had the effect of misleading the investigation from the right direction.

FS also wrote this:

HAND-PRINTS, FOOTPRINTS AND BLOOD
In the police database there are 9 millions record cards with fingerprints and only 1 million with hand-prints too. Thanks to Rudy's usual bad luck, they had taken his palm too.

 

[Vixen]

Yes, it fits with what I wrote. During the struggle, Rudi, behind her, grabbed/wrenched her arms from behind.

Rudy charged at her and she turned or twisted to get away, resulting in him being behind her. He held her from behind, putting his knife to the side of her neck. The knife scraped/cut (sliced) her neck (the first cut). They struggled and Rudy again side-sliced her neck, and then stabbed her throat - the mortal stab. He constrained and struggled with her as she went to the floor, still struggling, bleeding profusely, in terror, flailing as best she could. She never fought him from the front, face to face - she was never in position to scratch or claw him, thus no evidence (skin) was under her nails.

He evidently took her by surprise. It could have been 2 seconds from the time he charged with knife in hand through the doorway to when he grabbed her and she, startled, tried to twist away. Meredith did not have a headstart to pull out furniture (chair, lamp, nightstand) to keep him back or to grab objects (book, purse) to throw at him. Total surprise, She never had a chance to go into her Bruce Lee stance.

All her minor injuries - bruises, nicks, cuts, scrapes - are consistent with her twisting, resisting, flailing struggle as he attempted to contain her to the floor.

Only, one knife wound was made by a considerably narrower blade. You haven't explained the facial and neck bruising.

Any theory as to how he got in?

 

[Vixen]

And I'd go further and say that the high likelihood is that the minor injuries are entirely consistent with the initial physical struggle, until Guede gets behind Kercher with his knife at her throat and forces her down to the ground. I believe that it was at this point that Kercher stopped struggling and became passively compliant: Guede had a sharp knife at her throat, and there was probably also a simple communication along the lines of: "Struggle and I'll kill you - don't struggle and I won't use the knife on you".

This (IMO) is what enabled Guede to control Kercher sufficiently to initiate the sexual assault with one hand while keeping the knife at her throat with the other hand. But (again IMO) once Guede sexually violated Kercher, she (perhaps reflexively) reacted to it by struggling and/or screaming, and this is what prompted Guede to inflict the fatal stab wounds to the neck.

Any idea who locked the door from the inside, whilst leaving the front door swinging?

Having leapt up a sheer nine foot wall and rugby tackled Mez, he still had time to triple jump, lug the body around, put the washing machine on, fake Raff's footprint on the bathmat, magic Amanda and Mez' mixed blood DNA, carefully cover the body, yet fail to flush the toilet and still go disco dancing into the night?

<fx brummie accent> Yes, mate!

 

[Bill Williams]

According to Cheli B&M did believe in multiple attackers. I'll go with his assessment.

It's immaterial what Cheli wrote. Indeed we on this service can have a dandy argument about what each of us believe some third party wrote. Go for it!

The point is B&M believed it to be a judicial fact, outside their purview. Whether they believed multiple attackers to be factual, is anyone's guess. Apparently these appeals do not try to address the factuality of things, just the illogical reasons lower courts used to make verdicts.

In relation to multiple attackers, Hellmann got that one correct. It was not up to his court to determine the issue, just whether or not AK/RS were those extra people. They weren't.

 

[Grinder]

Any idea who locked the door from the inside, whilst leaving the front door swinging?

Having leapt up a sheer nine foot wall and rugby tackled Mez, he still had time to triple jump, lug the body around, put the washing machine on, fake Raff's footprint on the bathmat, magic Amanda and Mez' mixed blood DNA, carefully cover the body, yet fail to flush the toilet and still go disco dancing into the night?

<fx brummie accent> Yes, mate!

Wow. the door wasn't locked from the inside. the washing machine wasn't turned on. the climb to the window wasn't that difficult as demonstrated on the TV show. the footprint at best was compatible. there was no mixed blood DNA. he did out dancing

 

[Vixen]

Your reply contradicts Mignini completely. He described AK as a cunning, calculating and clever person. Something like a fox?? A female fox perhaps?

If that's a sly dig at me, you're way off course.

Mignini saw right through Amanda and that's why she hates him so venomously.

 

[Bill Williams]

Any idea who locked the door from the inside, whilst leaving the front door swinging?

Having leapt up a sheer nine foot wall and rugby tackled Mez, he still had time to triple jump, lug the body around, put the washing machine on, fake Raff's footprint on the bathmat, magic Amanda and Mez' mixed blood DNA, carefully cover the body, yet fail to flush the toilet and still go disco dancing into the night?

<fx brummie accent> Yes, mate!

Wow. What a mess of factoids. All packed into one neat package.

First off, there was no mixed blood. Even Harry Rag has given up on that cut-and-pasted factoid.

Second of all:



Third of all..... since when was the door locked "from the inside"? I'm now in trouble with js202, but you're now inventing things even the few remaining guilters would be embarrassed to put forth.

 

[Grinder]

It's immaterial what Cheli wrote. Indeed we on this service can have a dandy argument about what each of us believe some third party wrote. Go for it!

The point is B&M believed it to be a judicial fact, outside their purview. Whether they believed multiple attackers to be factual, is anyone's guess. Apparently these appeals do not try to address the factuality of things, just the illogical reasons lower courts used to make verdicts.

In relation to multiple attackers, Hellmann got that one correct. It was not up to his court to determine the issue, just whether or not AK/RS were those extra people. They weren't.

Hence it isn’t particularly surprising that Marasca agrees with Guede’s ruling about the presence of multiple attackers and the burglary being staged: ruling otherwise would have caused a major “conflitto in giudicato”, and probably that was also one of the causes of the annulment of the first acquittal.

There is however a difference: while Marasca writes very few words, if any, in upholding the concept of a staged burglary, so much so that one derives it was deemed staged more from the verdict than from the ruling, he expands quite a bit on the reasons for supporting the multiple attackers theory.

Some of those reasons are the usual ones and have been debated for years, and I will not discuss them further now (lack of defensive wounds, just to quote one), but while this could just be a mechanical rehashing of corny arguments, there is also something new that makes me think the judges of the panel, or at least a majority of them, really believed in what they were writing.

 

[anglolawyer]

Geez Anglo.

From amandaknoxcase.com an IIP site November 1st timeline.

20.01 Hekuran Kokomani’s cell phone pings off a tower servicing the cottage.[

He knew Rudi from the farm he worked at.

Says who?

A ping means nothing other than that he passed by assuming the crack police screwed up their triangulation. Try putting him in the house.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen - one huge problem is star witness Curatolo - they were in the plaza during your attack. Second problem - there were no early reports that Amanda was leaving when Popovic dropped by. Third problem - If they had this all planned out why didn't they put The Deluge on to cover over 5 hours.

There are many more...

How does the car breakdown figure in your thinking?

Btw, I do think Koko was there but as part of the crime not a witness.

Kokomani's involvement is mysterious. He was due to be the prosecution's star witness for premeditation insofar he witnessed the three together in "rehearsal" and came all the way from Albania voluntarily to report it.

Why? Was it to save his own skin? He claimed he was offered €100K not to testify. His performance in court was deliberately botched and he was heavily disguised.

Some think he was the drug supplier. Goodness knows what his "gear" was laced with, for Amanda to imagine she was cutting a birthday cake!

Someone left the cake out in the rain...

 

[Bill Williams]

Some of those reasons are the usual ones and have been debated for years, and I will not discuss them further now (lack of defensive wounds, just to quote one), but while this could just be a mechanical rehashing of corny arguments, there is also something new that makes me think the judges of the panel, or at least a majority of them, really believed in what they were writing.

That's a level of analysis that we'll never know. Truth is rarely a show of hands exercise. Given all the eddys and currents of the way the B&M report was put together, there is reason to believe it may have been put together by a committee. Give here, take there. Section 9.2 tries to set up what is to come as a hypothetical "synoptic" synthesis of both a guilt and innocence narrative, then the writer of 9.3ff forgets to stress that what follows is exactly that....

Or maybe worse, that the author of 9.3ff thought that the author of 9.2 was out to lunch and decided to sabotage it.....

Who knows.

You could be entirely correct. The **majority** of the five could have dug in their heels that judicial truths are by definition factual truths, and all the other two (maybe Marasca and Bruno??)could do was roll their eyes and try to fudge the rest to give the whole motivations report some semblance of internal-integrity....

You could very well be correct. one thing for sure is that the Marasca report is recognizably Italian.

 

[Grinder]

There was a person near the cottage at a time consistent with a break-in just before 9. That person left shortly after the murder and returned a couple months later and arranged a meeting with the prosecutor using an attorney as a middleman. This person was later (not sure exactly when) arrested for cocaine dealing. He maintains he knew or at least had met Rudi previously at the farm where he worked. This man is Albanian which is the nationality of the crime family that controlled the majority of drug trafficking in the region. He tells a story that makes no sense and conflicts with other evidence there is no doubt about, specifically the broken down car and tow truck.

By the time he comes forward with his fable the prosecutor has his case firmly in mind. How could this guy not become a key suspect as one or the only accomplice of Rudi?

Oh he had two cells phones and jar of olives that he threw at the trio. Why would he have two cell phones? Maybe one was for calling Albania.

But this guy isn't a suspect because they have the kids.

Do they have his interview recorded?

 

[Bill Williams]

Kokomani's involvement is mysterious.

Koko's involvement is a non-starter. First and foremost he's a complete liar, up to and including his claim he was offered money. If there is **any** evidence that Koko knows anything, it has not been shown in the last 8 years.

Eight years. He thinks he saw Knox weeks' before she'd arrived in Italy. Why would you believe anything he says - except to be able to cherry-pick guilt-sounding things?