Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

From Nencini:

In any case, what matters is not whether Rudy Hermann Guede entered the apartment with
Amanda Marie Knox and Raffaele Sollecito or if Meredith Kercher opened the door for him
(the only possible options, excluding the entrance via the window of Filomena Romanelli’s
bedroom); what’s important is that, at a certain point, most likely between 9:30 and 10:00p.m. the night of November 1st, 2007, both of the defendants and Rudy Hermann Guede were
certainly within the cottage, and Meredith Kercher in her bedroom

What about Curatolo - Vixen what does Leek say about this?

I dunno. You tell me.

 

[Vixen]

What are the implications of the ISC saying that Raffaele must have been with Amanda on the morning of the second, contrary to her evidence and his oral statements to the court?

The implication is, the court does not believe Raff and Amanda's version of events.

 

[Vixen]

I entirely agree. It was gratuitous and also poorly-reasoned. They don't offer any reason why this lie might have been conjured up. Did Amanda even have her phone with her? Maybe it was charging at Raf's place. Maybe she left him sleeping and saw no reason to wake him up. Maybe she figured there was no point in phoning given he was only 5 minutes away and she was heading right back. IOW there is nothing so unnatural about her not calling him as to force the conclusion that he was there (doing what?).

No, it wasn't charging. IIRC she switched it off "to save the battery" btw one of three explanations. No, Raff awoke before her, or so they claim, she went to the cottage to get the mop and to take a bag for clothes (as they both told police).

In her testimony, Amanda claimed the door was swinging open, and as she thought someone had popped out to empty the trash she left it open, went to her room to undress, to take a shower (police disbelieve she took any shower when she claims she did), didn't notice her lamp missing, claimed Filomena's door was shut, when Raff described it as "wide open", said Laura's door was ajar, but didn't notice her drawer hanging open. The pair claim it wasn't until after breakfast Amanda told Raff about the odd things.

Not hard to spot the anomalies.

The big question is, if Rudy "did it alone", why Amanda, in particular, covered up for him, as inferred by Bruno-Marasca.

Frankly, the court is telling us, they do not believe Amanda felt fear, or she would have called Raff immediately. If the pair were not intimidated by Rudy, what was the deal going on? Clearly, Rudy had something on them, that's what. They didn't want Rudy caught, so had to dream up the "Bushy Haired Stranger" myth of the sex-maniac burglar, and again Bruno-Marasca clearly state they disbelieve that story, as presented by the pair. Or, more cunningly, they had to finger Rudy in a roundabout way by pointing out his turd - as analemma charmingly calls it - as how else could they explain they knew of his presence, without themselves also being present?

 

[Vixen]

Just send these guys the section I quoted from the motivation, and there is no shortage of "glaring mistakes" and other bad things mentioned my be ISC to describe the judges and cops.
The two guys are clueless, Amanda apologized to Patrick in her final statement to the Hellman court, I QUOTE, at
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/AmandaStatement.html
Patrick? I don't see you. But I'm sorry. I'm sorry because I didn't mean to do wrong to do you. I was very naïve and not courageous at all; I should have been able to withstand the pressures that caused me to do harm to you. I didn't mean to contribute to what you have suffered. You know what it means to have unjust accusations imposed on your skin. You didn't deserve what you experienced and I hope you will be able to find peace.
The PGP, and Patrick, still lie and say that she never apologized!!!!

They mentioned about the dirty Gloves and sneered, but they should have just quoted the Motivations, I quote again;
"More unusual – and disturbing – is the fate of the bra clasp.
Noticed during the first site inspection by the Scientific Police, the object was ignored and left there on the floor for quite some time (a good 46 days), until it was finally collected during an additional visit. It is certain that in the time period between the site inspection when it was noticed and the one when it was collected, there were other visits by the investigators, who rummaged everywhere, moving furniture and fixtures, in search of evidence that would be useful to the investigation. The clasp was perhaps trodden on or, in any case, moved (such that it was found on the floor in a different position from where it had initially been noticed). Not only this, but the photographic documentation produced by Sollecito’s defence demonstrates that, at the time of the collection, the clasp was passed"
The Motivation has some real heavy duty damning quotes.

Did you miss that Mez' sweater was also subjected to the same treatment. I can't see you protesting about Rudy's DNA found on the cuffs.

 

[Vixen]

I found this:

It can in addition be sustained that, after her attempt to shift responsibility for the murder of Meredith Kercher onto the innocent party Patrick Lumumba had failed miserably, Amanda Marie Knox provided a reconstruction of the facts, averred to by the co-accused Raffaele Sollecito, that objectively constitutes a false alibi for both of the accused, in the sense that from 9:00/9:30pm on 1 November 2007 to the morning of 2 November 2007, Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Marie Knox were not in fact sound asleep in the apartment at 130, Via Garibaldi but rather, on the contrary, spent the night in full activity, so much so that Amanda Marie Knox was observed by Mr. Quintavalle at 7:45 am on the morning of 2 November 2007, as a person [143] who was displaying obvious signs of exhaustion [“ (…) – Let’s say she entered like this, she looked at me, I repeat, a bit like this, with this very white skin. I was struck because she seemed to me, that is she had an extremely exhausted expression according to me…but it’s quite normal, because sometimes a person comes [to the shop] in the morning after going dancing or partying or something.” See the Marco Quintavalle witness statement cited above].

In the first telephone call the defendant made to Filomena Romanelli she clearly said that she would go back to Raffaele’s place to tell him about the strange things discovered in the apartment, and then return with him to check the situation. This was said by the defendant to Filomena Romanelli, who related this in a precise manner in the course of the trial. Well, this circumstance is clearly false, since when Amanda Marie Knox made the first call to Filomena Romanelli at 12:08:44 pm on 2 November 2007 she was at Raffaele Sollecito’s apartment at 130 Via Garibaldi and not at 7 Via Della Pergola. This fact is certain because it is gleaned from the telephone records, as has been already been said, and specifically from the fact that the telephone call above connected to the cell that served precisely 130 Via Garibaldi, a cell that is not within reach of anyone who would have been at 7 Via Della Pergola.

and this

Therefore, it is reasonable to attempt a reconstruction of what actually happened on the morning of 2 November 2007, completely adhering to the court data, and in line with the circumstantial framework already highlighted in the preceding sections. [174]
Amanda Marie Knox and Raffaele Sollecito made a first telephone call from their residence to Meredith’s English service, in order to check that the telephones, thrown away the night before in open country (or rather what they thought to be open country) had not been found.
From Raffaele Sollecito’s residence, and not from Via della Pergola as Amanda Marie Knox explicitly stated by telephone to Filomena Romanelli, the latter was put on the alert with the aim of provoking her return to the dwelling, where Meredith’s body would have been discovered, not by Amanda Marie Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, but in the presence of other witnesses, who could have confirmed the simulation of the furtive entrance of the assailant through the window of the bedroom used by Filomena Romanelli.
At 12:34:56 pm of 2 November 2007 the two defendants were contacted by the telephone call of Ms. Romanelli whom they told about the presumed burglary, so as to provoke her return to the cottage. A very few minutes went by while the two defendants were probably deciding what to do, when the unexpected arrival of Inspector Battistelli created a sudden intrusion. The police were not expected, because nobody had yet called the police forces, and the two defendants were not aware of the reasons for their intervention.
Amanda Marie Knox and Raffaele Sollecito therefore found themselves faced with a situation which they had not anticipated, which was not planned, and which required immediate countermeasures. The officers were thus directed to see what must have seemed to them the scene of a robbery, and they were reassured about the fact that the Carabinieri had been advised, and that therefore their presence was not absolutely necessary. But the two policemen had not arrived there by chance, since they were looking for Filomena Romanelli who lived there, and so they did not go away. They stayed on the scene even when Ms. Romanelli, her friend Paola Grande, and young women’s two fiancés arrived. In the meantime Raffaele Sollecito was seeing to the making of the calls to 112, preceded by the one to his sister, while Amanda Marie Knox, at 12:47:23 pm was calling her mother’s American telephone service, talking with her for 88 seconds.
It is to be observed how nobody took any notice of the movements of the two defendants in the half hour which went by from the arrival of Inspector Battistelli and when, presumably around one in the afternoon, the door of Meredith Kercher’s room was broken down and the body was discovered.

Seems Nencini said neither was there until after noon. So Raf was with her the first time she went there.

That seems to be taken from Massei.

 

[analemma]

Did you miss that Mez' sweater was also subjected to the same treatment. I can't see you protesting about Rudy's DNA found on the cuffs.

The Rudy DNA was reserved to be found inside of the victims vagina.
Poor, poor, Rudy.
His DNA was not found very much in the murder room: Just in the purse and in the vagina of the dead girl.

 

[Numbers]

Numbers, is there anything from this case which might help us understand how or why the ECHR reached a conclusion that the conduct of the authorities was proven to the court's satisfaction? How were they persuaded? What defence, if you know, did Belgium put up to the claim?

In part, the ECHR relied on the medical reports of each of the two brothers, who each soon after release by the police, went to a physician who verified signs of hard contact on the face. These slaps apparently left significant bruising. However, the police denied that any such slaps were given. Only in its ECHR defense, and not in the original investigation of the police by Belgian authorities, Belgium claimed that the bruises were the result of the boys slapping themselves. Otherwise, the Belgian government defense was the police claimed not to have slapped the boys. There was no evidence that the boys had slapped themselves, the ECHR interpreted the medical record and statements of the boys as indicating that slaps had occurred, and the ECHR did not accept the Belgian government arguments.

Of interest, the judgment text is not now on HUDOC, which may mean that there was a need to edit it. The judgment is still announced as given, though, on the ECHR home page.

 

[Vixen]

So is it your view that, "contamination must be proven"?

IIUC, such information is never actually known in any circumstance.

Maybe not proven, but at least a credible scenario in explanation is expected.

Imagine everyone who failed a breathalyser test was let off simply because their defense argued it must have been contaminated. They would have to come up with a good explanation for suggesting to the court "the police were bent".

 

[analemma]

The Rudy DNA was reserved to be found inside of the victims vagina.
Poor, poor, Rudy.
His DNA was not found very much in the murder room: Just in the purse and in the vagina of the dead girl.

Next thing you know, Vixen and Mach will be saying the DNA from inside the vagina was retrieved after 43 days.

 

[Vixen]

No, I think the least likely explanation for the result is Raffaele touching the clasp during the course of the murder.

No, Mez was undressed after the murder. Occam's razor says Raff's DNA was there because he touched it, just like Stefanoni found Rudy had held Mez' arms, likely the culprit who wrenched them behind her back, dislocating one of them at the shoulder.

 

[Vixen]

bagels,

The highlighted statement is not correct.

The bra clasp showed the DNA of several males, including possibly Sollecito, all at low concentration. The major contributor to the DNA profile was Meredith Kercher. The bra showed evidence of having been ripped off from Meredith's body by pulling on a strap, IIRC. This would tend to preclude any probative significance to the bra clasp. Furthermore, whatever DNA was on the clasp was intentionally destroyed through improper storage by the police, suggesting that the Italian authorities wished to prevent any retesting, and that they were aware of their fraudulent allegations.

Thus, the explanation for the bra clasp DNA evidence alleged against Raffaele Sollecito is straight-forward: It was contamination, if it even existed, and the presentation and interpretation of the DNA evidence was an act of fraud by the Italian authorities. Case closed.

No, it didn't, they were mere fragments. Not DNA proper, as Raff's and Mez' were. Face it, Raff almost certainly ripped off Mez' bra after her death.

 

[Vixen]

Completely innocent contamination has happened before
http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_26055401/san-jose-case-casts-doubts-dna-evidence

Completely innocent explanations for being over the limit on breathalyser tests have happened before.

So what? And the point you are making is...?

Logical fallacy = non sequitur.

 

[Vixen]

Bruce,

Your points are from my viewpoint entirely correct. Much of the nit-picking discussion on the Marasca CSC panel motivation report serves no clear purpose and is redundant.

However, there is an additional point that is not receiving much attention. That is, it is against Italian law and ECHR case-law - because the European Convention of Human Rights and ECHR case-law is the law of Italy and each of the other Council of Europe States - to violate the presumption of innocence of persons, even in an acquittal or dismissal for cases running past the statute of limitations.

Thus, if the wording of the Marasca CSC does explicitly or by inference disparage the presumption of innocence of Amanda Knox and/or Raffaele Sollecito, either or both would have recourse to lodge a complaint against Italy on a violation of Convention Article 6.2 with the ECHR, with the expectation that Italy, if found in violation, would be required to redress this violation. The redress could include just satisfaction (compensation) and other measures, including potentially revision or correction of the MR.

I have a feeling Raff and Amanda will prefer to let sleeping dogs lie, than have their behaviour looked at closely.

 

[analemma]

No, it didn't, they were mere fragments. Not DNA proper, as Raff's and Mez' were. Face it, Raff almost certainly ripped off Mez' bra after her death.

"DNA Proper"
The Police always thought that the SUSPECT DNA was DNA Proper: The problem is the SCIENTISTS do not think so.
The Motivation says what the ISC thinks of the "Glaring errors " of police and the need for police and prosecutors to act like scientists, rather than to assume the role that the police did: That of a screaming mob shouting "Burn the American Witch".

 

[Vixen]

The Rudy DNA was reserved to be found inside of the victims vagina.
Poor, poor, Rudy.
His DNA was not found very much in the murder room: Just in the purse and in the vagina of the dead girl.

Incorrect. Rudy's DNA was found on the outside of the bag, not the inside.

Any idea whose long fair hair was lying across the top of the bag?

 

[analemma]

Incorrect. Rudy's DNA was found on the outside of the bag, not the inside.

Any idea whose long fair hair was lying across the top of the bag?

OH!!! Sorry
Outside of the bag, but INSIDE of the VAGINA.
That makes a big difference.
And you are making up the part about the hair, but I am not making up the part about Rudy in the Vagina..

 

[Vixen]

"DNA Proper"
The Police always thought that the SUSPECT DNA was DNA Proper: The problem is the SCIENTISTS do not think so.
The Motivation says what the ISC thinks of the "Glaring errors " of police and the need for police and prosecutors to act like scientists, rather than to assume the role that the police did: That of a screaming mob shouting "Burn the American Witch".

All in your mind. I have asked several times for a citation of where and when anyone, let alone "a mob", whether screaming or otherwise, called Amanda a "witch" - or even a "slut" - (aside from barrister, Paceli) and have been met with complete silence.

IOW yet another strawman logical fallacy.

Gallileo, Gallileo, oh no, we will not let him go.

 

[Vixen]

OH!!! Sorry
Outside of the bag, but INSIDE of the VAGINA.
That makes a big difference.
And you are making up the part about the hair, but I am not making up the part about Rudy in the Vagina..

It is listed in the police inventory of 498 samples of physical evidence.

Logical fallacy: Rudy's DNA present does not ipso facto cancel out there being other assailants.

Your beloved Fifth Chamber ISC clearly states Rudy did not act alone.

Your heroine was there, washed Mez' blood off her hands, covered up for poor, poor Rudy and lied about being alone at the cottage on the morning of 2nd November 2007.

What will you do now?

 

[bagels]

No, Mez was undressed after the murder. Occam's razor says Raff's DNA was there because he touched it, just like Stefanoni found Rudy had held Mez' arms, likely the culprit who wrenched them behind her back, dislocating one of them at the shoulder.

I'll engage you on this one and agree with you for now. I posted a hypothetical theory upthread against Raffaele that excludes Amanda, here it is again for reference:

It was Raffaele Sollecito. Ever since his depression and reading violent mangas he started getting homicidal thoughts and planned to pull off a thrill killing. He targeted Amanda at the concert but maybe someone saw them together too soon so he had to come up with a plan B. He decided to use her as an alibi and kill one of her roommates with his longtime drug buddy Rudy Guede. On the night of the murder he learned everyone in the cottage was gone except Meredith, who was hanging out with her British friends but would likely be back in the evening. He drugged Amanda with a sedative so she wouldn't be aware of what was going on or notice him leaving. Then he met up with Guede and they proceeded to kill Meredith. This explains Raffaele's bloody print on the bathmat, his DNA on the bra clasp, why he lied about the kitchen knife, and why he gave Amanda up to the police so readily, because he knew she wouldn't have any information to give them (that she would be coerced into confessing to the police fantasy scenario never occurred to him) and Rudy's early story about the other male attacker (and Meredith's dying words about "aff" - ie "Raff"). The luminol is from Amanda's bathmat shuffle the next morning. This is also why he couldn't keep his story straight on whether Filomena's door was open or closed, why he said nothing was stolen, and why he hesitated to call the police after Amanda asked him to.

What do you think? Plausible? See any obvious problems? Would love to get your feedback and maybe I can work on it some more.

 

[anglolawyer]

The implication is, the court does not believe Raff and Amanda's version of events.

Then the court is stupid. Scarcely a first.

No, it wasn't charging. IIRC she switched it off "to save the battery" btw one of three explanations. No, Raff awoke before her, or so they claim, she went to the cottage to get the mop and to take a bag for clothes (as they both told police).

In her testimony, Amanda claimed the door was swinging open, and as she thought someone had popped out to empty the trash she left it open, went to her room to undress, to take a shower (police disbelieve she took any shower when she claims she did), didn't notice her lamp missing, claimed Filomena's door was shut, when Raff described it as "wide open", said Laura's door was ajar, but didn't notice her drawer hanging open. The pair claim it wasn't until after breakfast Amanda told Raff about the odd things.

Not hard to spot the anomalies.

The big question is, if Rudy "did it alone", why Amanda, in particular, covered up for him, as inferred by Bruno-Marasca.

Frankly, the court is telling us, they do not believe Amanda felt fear, or she would have called Raff immediately. If the pair were not intimidated by Rudy, what was the deal going on? Clearly, Rudy had something on them, that's what. They didn't want Rudy caught, so had to dream up the "Bushy Haired Stranger" myth of the sex-maniac burglar, and again Bruno-Marasca clearly state they disbelieve that story, as presented by the pair. Or, more cunningly, they had to finger Rudy in a roundabout way by pointing out his turd - as analemma charmingly calls it - as how else could they explain they knew of his presence, without themselves also being present?

I forgot the lamp too. Good point.