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911myths on Mineta, Cheney and Clarke

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I highly recommend you do as DGM suggested earlier in the threat and speak to a hairdresser; ...

My hairdressing master friend will come over for breakfast next wednesday. I'll show her the 11 crops of Matalin shot from her right side.

@ FalseFlag: What question(s) do you suggest I ask her?
I want to avoid asking leading questions, but of course want her to answer if there are two different heads (different persons, or same person on another day, with longer hair).
I want to avoid hinting at which photos show a different person, or which features to look at.
I propose that I tell her that it is being debated whether one or more of the pictures have the hair substantially different, and to ask her to group the photos by same hair.
Sounds fair?
 
Yeah, the one that's absolutely tiny and impossible to make out any details to begin with that every debunker uses with zeal to support the official timeline.

If you want one example, look at post #6 in this thread.

So predictable.

Baby - bathwater.

In some images, you can make out those details on the the screen easily.
In some images, you can almost make out those details on the the screen, but better to corroborate
In some images, you can't read time, logo or captions on screens, but you still have the scene displayed to work with, and you know already how to synchronize the scenes with TV archives.

You previously already accepted the analysis that puts V1546-03 at 9:29, despite the TV clock not being visible:
https://dotmafia.wordpress.com/newl...norman-mineta-testimony-and-the-implications/

In V1546-04, -05 and -06 I think you will agree that the TV clock, displayed on a TV screen that appears about 260x250 pixels and has the clock on a dark background with good contrast, shows 9:30 and 9:31, corroborated by Bush's speech, which was held at that time.

Similarly, the clock is large with sufficient contrast in V1546-10, -11 and -12 and shows 9:33 each time.

In V1546-13, the TV clock is slightly ambiguous to me (more out of focus than the previous ones, I think), so I did an alanysis of the scene, and found it to be exactly at 09:36:06.

Similarly, V1546-14 is precisely at 09:36:24 according to this analysis.

And V1546-15 is precisely at 09:36:43.


See, we can timestamp TV images quite exactly in many cases, and there is no need to photoshop anything.
 
I have looked at Lynne Cheney's hair, more than you can imagine. When she is wearing the brooch her hair is extremely consistent. It only changes once she loses the brooch and then puts on the earrings. You did notice the jewelry change, right? Of course women carry extra jewelry with them all the time, so this is perfectly normal. Except it's not, and I have asked several women, and they all say it's nonsense to carry extra jewelry with them. Of course I already conceded that the jewelry changes are just odd, but don't think I don't see them.

So, yes, I have studied her hair exhaustively. Her hair is absolutely, without question, consistent while she is wearing the brooch. Later, when she removes the brooch and puts on earrings her hair is absolutely consistent in all of those pictures. I do see inconsistency between earlier in the day and later in the day, but it can easily be attributed to all of the factors you mentioned in your earlier post.

Hehe, quite perceptive! I have studied the photoset intensively myself, but did not notice the jewelry change!

Here are the last photo before and the first photo after the change:
V1562-04
V1562-14

The latter is also the first that has Laura Bush, who reportedly was taken to the PEOC around 18:30 (see details here).


I remember having read in some USSS memo (?) that at some point in time, a female assistent was dispatched to the Cheney residence at the Naval Observatory to fetch a travel bag for Mrs. Cheney. When I have more time, I'll try to dig that up and see if it has a time stamp.
 
While searching for said memo, I found something else:

4/16/04 Cochrane interview
Douglas Cochrane is the military aide in white Navy uniform in some of the pictures.

page 2 (while talking about the time they all got to the shelter, after Pentagon was hit):

"Went to EBR-VP; Dr. Rice; Nick Calio; Scooter Libby; Eric Edelman; Mrs. Cheney
Secretary Mineta a bit later
"​


A little later (page 3):
"Capt. Barnes came in to announce unidentified aircraft not squaking; several times; north; more than 60 miles; then 60 miles; tracking toward DC; telling VP directly"​

So it wasn't Cochrane after all who Mineta called "young man" and announced to the VP that plane is x miles out?!
 
While searching for said memo, I found something else:

4/16/04 Cochrane interview
Douglas Cochrane is the military aide in white Navy uniform in some of the pictures.

page 2 (while talking about the time they all got to the shelter, after Pentagon was hit):

"Went to EBR-VP; Dr. Rice; Nick Calio; Scooter Libby; Eric Edelman; Mrs. Cheney
Secretary Mineta a bit later
"​


Another really good find, Oystein.

Mineta himself has said that Mrs. Cheney was already in the PEOC when he arrived. Thanks to some video evidence, the time of Mrs. Cheney arrival at the White House gate can be narrowed down to within about 30 seconds.

Here's what Mrs. Cheney said happened when she arrived at the White House during an interview with Newsweek:

When we got there, I arrived just as the White House was being evacuated. So the guards had no idea who we were and were confused that somebody would want to be coming in, and wouldn't lower the barriers. The Secret Service people who were with me drove onto the sidewalk. And at that point, a fire engine tried to block our way. Link


Fortunately, there was a CNN cameraman on the ground near the White House shooting random video of the events as they unfolded and caught the above scene of Mrs. Cheney arriving in her motorcade at the White House gate.

Relevant part starts at the 4:00 mark.



In the video you will notice the cameraman swings his camera from Mrs. Cheney's vehicle to a shot facing north in which we can see the infamous "9/11 Mystery Plane" flying over Washington DC. The E-4B was tracked on radar on its exit out of Andrews Air Force Base and while making its circle above Washington. Using the timestamps from the radar data, it can be determined that Mrs. Cheney arrived at the White House at approximately 9:46.

This not only aligns with most Secret Service timelines regarding Cheney's White House arrival, but it also blows Mineta's 9:20 PEOC arrival time completely out of the water.

Now for some speculation. Mrs. Cheney had just been evacuated from the Nantucket hair salon when she was driven to the White House by Secret Service. Just having her hair done by professionals may explain why her hair doesn't change much throughout the course the day.

It may also explain why she does not have earrings in for some photos and then have them in for other photos. One could reasonably assume that she had removed her earrings to get her hair cut and didn't have time to put them back in before being rushed out of the salon, and then put them back in later on in the day.
 
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Ya know, I'm beginning to wonder if we are missing the significance of FalseFlag's handle...
 
Oh my god FF, has discovered cheap TVs with scan lines that blur in photos because of poor reception, or indirect angle of the lens.
Photo shop, oh please get a clue.
 
You are fortunate, indeed, you missed a former debunkers troll bait cartoon.
The good old days here were fun but some posters really went over board, with an anchor attached.
My own posting SOPs (or ROEs) I know I wont win but I don't feed trolls - starve them out is preferable but needs 99% agreement. Won't happen.

Then IF a troll posts something intelligent I often respond to the intelligent bit. They rarely come back with intelligence but it happens occasionally. Then my "two posts rule" - if I give two reasoned responses and they keep trolling I abort and break contact.

Several of what I regard as my "better explanations" resulted from posting for trolls. One here responding to Clayton Moore on a couple of specific consequences of "why the global collapse was inevitable" another on DebatePolitics responding to Koko**** on "Why the Top Block Did Not Topple Over The Side" (he was a Poe rather than pure troll but same rule.)

IMNSHO we are way past the use by date of "posting for the benefi of lurkers".

:teacher:
 
This particular troll has put some effort into research - for example, he looked for professional camera lenses of the era until 2001 to figure out David Bohrer's equipment - that's rather interesting to me, who is in the process of analysing the PEOC photos, if only to add detail to history. Also, his noticing the jewelry change on Mrs. Cheney is slightly helpful to corroborate an issue of relative timing.

So this troll isn't quite as trollish.
 
Another really good find, Oystein.

Mineta himself has said that Mrs. Cheney was already in the PEOC when he arrived. Thanks to some video evidence, the time of Mrs. Cheney arrival at the White House gate can be narrowed down to within about 30 seconds.

[...]

... Using the timestamps from the radar data, it can be determined that Mrs. Cheney arrived at the White House at approximately 9:46.

This not only aligns with most Secret Service timelines regarding Cheney's White House arrival, but it also blows Mineta's 9:20 PEOC arrival time completely out of the water.
Good summary, thanks!
There is one imperfection here in that it can't be ruled that some other motorcade rolled over the sidewalk, and we can't directly identify Mrs. Cheney or her motorcade. There is thus a little bit of wiggle room to doubt this was actually Lynne Cheney.

However: In the Newsweek interview, she tells vividly how, after they had first gone north toward her residence, then made a U-turn to head back south to the White House, she saw the smoke from the Pentagon, and since the Pentagon is close to south of the White House, it looked to her as if the smoke came from the White House.
So there is addditional corroboration that she went there after 9:38.

Now for some speculation. Mrs. Cheney had just been evacuated from the Nantucket hair salon when she was driven to the White House by Secret Service. Just having her hair done by professionals may explain why her hair doesn't change much throughout the course the day.

It may also explain why she does not have earrings in for some photos and then have them in for other photos. One could reasonably assume that she had removed her earrings to get her hair cut and didn't have time to put them back in before being rushed out of the salon, and then put them back in later on in the day.
Hehe yep, that's good thinking! Her personal detail didn't rush her quite as urgently as her husband (who was famously grabbed by his belt and dragged down the corridors by his agents who didn't even say as much as "Sir" before doing it), but rushed she was.
 
This particular troll has put some effort into research - for example, he looked for professional camera lenses of the era until 2001 to figure out David Bohrer's equipment - that's rather interesting to me, who is in the process of analysing the PEOC photos, if only to add detail to history. Also, his noticing the jewelry change on Mrs. Cheney is slightly helpful to corroborate an issue of relative timing.

So this troll isn't quite as trollish.

Good point.

Remember C7's tactics to gain credibility?
 
Good point.

Remember C7's tactics to gain credibility?

Actually, no, I don't. I think that was in my early days here, when my interests didn't overlap with the threads C7 posted in, or even earlier.

Credibility is not much of an issue here. FF tackles the photo set from a new angle, asks some new questions, and thus helps me see some details I had not seen before. Doesn't mean he is ever going to convince me or anybody else of the two Matalins.

One interesting bit in this ongoing debate of the PEOC photoset across several fora is that even MirgaMemories and kawika posted a well-research analysis of a couple of photos to help prove that Cheney didn't leave his office until after 9:36 - and yet kawika doesn't believe what his own evidence clearly and literally shows. It was kawika, too, who posted the video analysis on 911Blogger of the arrival of Mrs. Cheney's arrival at the White House premises at ca. 9:45/9:46, that Boone summarized a few posts ago - it, too, corroborates the "offcial" timeline - and still kawika is not prepared to revise his belief that Norman Mineta, who by all accounts arrived at the PEOC after the Cheney, was in the PEOC before 9:30.
This is a highly interesting display of how the mind of the truther works. They do not merely refuse to accept conclusions from our evidence, they even reject conclusions drawn from their own evidence - provided the evidence supports the "official story". The entire effort is made to disbelief the "official story" at all costs, at the peril of handwaving their own arguments.
 
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Actually, no, I don't. I think that was in my early days here, when my interests didn't overlap with the threads C7 posted in, or even earlier...
I rank him as one of the most successful trolls. The ongoing tactic he used was to present reasoned arguments and occasionally yield a point in discussion. Seemed to fool a lot of people into thinking he was serious...so unlike the usual run of trolls who simply dig in the trench and wont budge. He mostly operated in "tag team" with Szamboti here in the JREF era. Big difference he did have reasoning skills - abstract reasoning a blind spot in Szamboti's posts.

Credibility is not much of an issue here. FF tackles the photo set from a new angle, asks some new questions, and thus helps me see some details I had not seen before. Doesn't mean he is ever going to convince me or anybody else of the two Matalins.
Understood. Another example of an intelligent troll would be Kokomojojo on DebatePolitics - actually a Poe and good enough at posting physics parody or false arguments that would fool the resident truthers who were more trolls than genuine truthers - typical of the current demographic set on the forums I still observe. Rebutting his physics/engineering parodies took much effort where I broke my "don't feed trolls" rules more often than I probably should. His parody arguments were good enough to present a modest fun challenge to rebut them.

However from your side - if the work he does helps you with insights that is useful. Same as my attitude to Major_Tom - I can tell which of his technical work is good >> better >> excellent and use it without being impressed/persuaded/misled by the more negative stuff of style and logic.

One interesting bit in this ongoing debate of the PEOC photoset across several fora is that even MirageMemories and kawika posted a well-research analysis of a couple of photos to help prove that Cheney didn't leave his office until after 9:36 - and yet kawika doesn't believe what his own evidence clearly and literally shows. It was kawika, too, who posted the video analysis of the arrival of Mrs. Cheney's arrival at the White House premises at ca. 9:45/9:46, that Boone summarized a few posts ago - it, too, corroborates the "offcial" timeline - and still kawika is not prepared to revise his belief that Norman Mineta, who by all accounts arrived at the PEOC after the Cheney, was in the PEOC before 9:30.
I follow your interactions with both "in another place". MM's main objective still seems to be as offensive as possible - trutherism a distant second. kawika probably a genuinly believing truther of limited reasning skills - of the rational objectice type. Pure "faith based" IMO.
This is a highly interesting display of how the mind of the truther works. They do not merely refuse to accept conclusions from our evidence, they even reject conclusions drawn from their own evidence - provided the evidence supports the "official story". The entire effort is made to disbelief the "official story" at all costs, at the peril of handwaving their own arguments.
Most of that is the result of their 'faith based" reasoning - if you ignore the oxymoronic aspect of that label. ;)
 
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Hehe, quite perceptive! I have studied the photoset intensively myself, but did not notice the jewelry change!

Here are the last photo before and the first photo after the change:
V1562-04
V1562-14

The latter is also the first that has Laura Bush, who reportedly was taken to the PEOC around 18:30 (see details here).


I remember having read in some USSS memo (?) that at some point in time, a female assistent was dispatched to the Cheney residence at the Naval Observatory to fetch a travel bag for Mrs. Cheney. When I have more time, I'll try to dig that up and see if it has a time stamp.

I found it:
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB358a/doc22.pdf
This timeline was created a few days after 9/11 by USSS staff agents. Page 10/11:
"1326 hrs Laura Chadwick is coming to the Observatory to pack a bag for Mrs. Cheney
[...]
1633 hrs Notified by SA Fiesel that Angler and Author [code names for Dick and Lynne Cheney] may be leaving shortly en route NAVOBS. Arrival will be Gillis Gate."​
So I was wrong about "fetching" a travel bag, Laura Chadwick merely "packed" one. Conceivably, it wasn't brought to the White House because the Cheney's were first expected to come by their residence before further evacuation (other entries inform about beefed-up security at the Naval Observatory); but they never did leave the White House before being taken directly to Camp David later in the evening (2200 hrs). Perhaps Cheney decided to stay when he learned around 1630 hours that the President would return ASAP. This could then be consistent with someone bringing Lynne's bag, with earrings, to the PEOC.

(I feel a bit like a truther, spinning a biased yarn from vague information :D)
 

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