Jeremy Bamber

[anglolawyer]

Sorry, it is meant as my personal speculation based on other cases.

Thanks for clarifying. Well, she placed herself at their mercy, for sure but it doesn't follow that they planted her story and some of the details, like the temazapam, were at least partly confirmed by Bamber. He got very shifty when they brought that up.

 

[MikeG]

Such as blood or powder or gun oil from his hands on the handlebars, brakes, gear shifters, etc.

 

[Desert Fox]

Thanks for clarifying. Well, she placed herself at their mercy, for sure but it doesn't follow that they planted her story and some of the details, like the temazapam, were at least partly confirmed by Bamber. He got very shifty when they brought that up.

If you assume that there is no good evidence of guilt with regards to Adnan Syed, we seem to also have a similar situation with Jay Wilds (Serial Podcast.)

 

[MikeG]

Back to your theory, AL.....

What's in it for Bamber? Well, all I can come up with is that either he let something slip inadvertently, or, it was her idea in the first place.

 

[anglolawyer]

Such as blood or powder or gun oil from his hands on the handlebars, brakes, gear shifters, etc.

Well, who knows. The cops did not look at the bike for weeks. Bamber (if guilty) got very lucky that DCI Taff Jones was in charge. His juniors were very suspicious of Bamber but were held in check. If Bamber had got the Scott Peterson treatment it might have been a different story.

 

[Desert Fox]

Well, who knows. The cops did not look at the bike for weeks. Bamber (if guilty) got very lucky that DCI Taff Jones was in charge. His juniors were very suspicious of Bamber but were held in check. If Bamber had got the Scott Peterson treatment it might have been a different story.

Or it might have cleared him?

 

[anglolawyer]

Back to your theory, AL.....

What's in it for Bamber? Well, all I can come up with is that either he let something slip inadvertently, or, it was her idea in the first place.

Blimey! Personally, I don't think so. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence (some of it adduced against him at his trial) of him saying things about wanting his parents dead. But something to chew over, certainly.

 

[anglolawyer]

Or it might have cleared him?

Don't see how, DF.

 

[Desert Fox]

Don't see how, DF.

You believe he is guilty but are not 100%. I am guessing you are something like 60/40 towards guilt from previous statements. I believe he is innocent and would likely put it 75% /25% towards innocence. Neither of us thinks the other is nuts however.

While I believe that police interviews can often produce bad results, I believe that physical evidence is far more reliable. In this case, I think the physical evidence could have put the case to bed no matter if he was innocent or guilty.

I do have a question for you however. Do you know any similar cases to what Jeremy has been convicted of? Complex murder plots such as what is suggested seem to be incredibly rare in actuality although the fodder for murder novels. I listened to an interview with a defense lawyer who stated she got two types of clients, the innocent and the dumb ones. Never seems to get the mastermind.

Murder / suicides are not all that uncommon common however. I believe I remember even reading a case of a wrongful conviction with regards to a murder-suicide case.

 

[anglolawyer]

You believe he is guilty but are not 100%. I am guessing you are something like 60/40 towards guilt from previous statements. I believe he is innocent and would likely put it 75% /25% towards innocence. Neither of us thinks the other is nuts however.

No, we aren't nuts. I'm about 72.9 / 27.1 (does that add up to 100 )

While I believe that police interviews can often produce bad results, I believe that physical evidence is far more reliable. In this case, I think the physical evidence could have put the case to bed no matter if he was innocent or guilty.

Check

I do have a question for you however. Do you know any similar cases to what Jeremy has been convicted of? Complex murder plots such as what is suggested seem to be incredibly rare in actuality although the fodder for murder novels. I listened to an interview with a defense lawyer who stated she got two types of clients, the innocent and the dumb ones. Never seems to get the mastermind.

Scott Peterson, Jodi Arias, both guilty IMHO.

Murder / suicides are not all that uncommon common however. I believe I remember even reading a case of a wrongful conviction with regards to a murder-suicide case.

No, we just had another one of these. They happen all the time.

Face it, DF, unusual cases do happen. Statistics won't solve this one.

 

[MikeG]

The phone thing troubles me. Why go to all the trouble? Wouldn't it have been so much simpler for JB to just stay out of the way until the bodies were found, and to make sure he had a good alibi (I can see why Julie Mugford might have been indispensable for that)? Why add in unnecessary complication? Phone calls set times, and all he needed to do at the crime scene would be to shoot a clock if he wanted the time of the killings to be known afterwards. What JB did with his alleged strategy, if guilty, was simply build in evidence which could be used against him.

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Does the use of a silencer leave a trace for ballistics to find afterwards? Has this been looked at? Do the bullet cases still exist?

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There is an ongoing campaign for a freedom of information request for all the Essex police files on the case to be made public. That could really set the cat amongst the proverbials.

 

[anglolawyer]

The phone thing troubles me. Why go to all the trouble? Wouldn't it have been so much simpler for JB to just stay out of the way until the bodies were found, and to make sure he had a good alibi (I can see why Julie Mugford might have been indispensable for that)? Why add in unnecessary complication? Phone calls set times, and all he needed to do at the crime scene would be to shoot a clock if he wanted the time of the killings to be known afterwards. What JB did with his alleged strategy, if guilty, was simply build in evidence which could be used against him.

The phone thing is brilliant, really. It's central to the plan. It gives him an alibi and sets a very persuasive misdirection in motion. It's so clever it's close to driving me to think he must be innocent.

Does the use of a silencer leave a trace for ballistics to find afterwards? Has this been looked at? Do the bullet cases still exist?

They found the bullets in the bodies and the shell cases on the floor. A whole bunch of stuff was destroyed years ago. Whether the bullets were, I don't know.

There is an ongoing campaign for a freedom of information request for all the Essex police files on the case to be made public. That could really set the cat amongst the proverbials.

I believe public interest immunity may have been used to cover up the deal with Mugford. It might also have been invoked to conceal surveillance methods. And it might conceal some dark conspiracy of which the British establishment is fully capable.

 

[Desert Fox]

Scott Peterson, Jodi Arias, both guilty IMHO.

In each case, they involve a single victim (Let us not play games with Lacy being pregnant) and what are relatively stupid plots. If Scott had gone further into the bay into deep water, her body would have never been found. Jodi Arias I would also argue was pretty stupid.

Face it, DF, unusual cases do happen. Statistics won't solve this one.

I think that police find strange and unusual crimes far more often than they actually occur. In fact, I would argue that if the cops argue for a complex plot, you are better off just simply betting that they are wrong.

I do not have an exact layout of the house however the descriptions that I have been reading give me at least some idea. Whenever I picture myself in Jeremy's position and trying to kill everybody, I run into these roadblocks.

I can however see plausible ways that Shelia could have done it, I can see how it might have escalated especially if the family was trying to calm her down for a while.

In addition, I have trouble seeing how Jeremy could have gotten Shelia to stay still for posing her as a suicide.

 

[anglolawyer]

In each case, they involve a single victim (Let us not play games with Lacy being pregnant) and what are relatively stupid plots. If Scott had gone further into the bay into deep water, her body would have never been found. Jodi Arias I would also argue was pretty stupid.



I think that police find strange and unusual crimes far more often than they actually occur. In fact, I would argue that if the cops argue for a complex plot, you are better off just simply betting that they are wrong.

I do not have an exact layout of the house however the descriptions that I have been reading give me at least some idea. Whenever I picture myself in Jeremy's position and trying to kill everybody, I run into these roadblocks.

I can however see plausible ways that Shelia could have done it, I can see how it might have escalated especially if the family was trying to calm her down for a while.

In addition, I have trouble seeing how Jeremy could have gotten Shelia to stay still for posing her as a suicide.

I have the same problem seeing how she shot herself twice but one or the other surely happened.

I am staggered by the audacity of all the premed perps TBH. I am as likely to win a gold medal on the pommel horse as I am to conceive, carry out and then cover up such a madcap scheme but facts are facts. People do these things.

 

[MikeG]

Here is a quote which in my mind should be enough to free Bamber. Therefore, I am not sure what I am missing:

Two years ago, Bamber’s legal team thought they had made a breakthrough when a recently unearthed police phone log recorded a call on the night of the killings from Nevill.
The log, entitled ‘daughter gone berserk’, said that Mr Bamber had said his daughter had stolen one of his guns and gone ‘berserk’.

If a police log records "Mr Bamber" as saying his daughter was going berserk with a gun, then it was either Nevill, of Jeremy pretending to be Nevill. I don't believe that latter has ever been alleged.

Now, OK, this is from the Daily Fail, but it is a direct quote, and they have been campaigning on this case for years.

 

[Desert Fox]

I have the same problem seeing how she shot herself twice but one or the other surely happened.
I am staggered by the audacity of all the premed perps TBH. I am as likely to win a gold medal on the pommel horse as I am to conceive, carry out and then cover up such a madcap scheme but facts are facts. People do these things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide
Multiple gunshot suicides are rare, but possible. In one study of 138 gunshot suicides, 5 (3.6%) involved two shots to the head, the first of which missed the brain.[1] A suicide with 4 gunshots to the head has been reported.[2]

Do not forget that a .22 is about the lightest firearm there is and a .22 subsonic has an even lower powder load than a standard .22 round.

 

[Samson]

Here is a quote which in my mind should be enough to free Bamber. Therefore, I am not sure what I am missing:



If a police log records "Mr Bamber" as saying his daughter was going berserk with a gun, then it was either Nevill, of Jeremy pretending to be Nevill. I don't believe that latter has ever been alleged.

Now, OK, this is from the Daily Fail, but it is a direct quote, and they have been campaigning on this case for years.

From one of the comments

Many old timers in Maldon said that the Police stood outside while she was still inside and they heard her shoot herself. Why did they fit him up?!

Of course they didn't fit him up right then. One of the articles I have read says how impatient the main detective was with suggestions Bamber did it, but unfortunately he fell off a ladder and died while the case was in progress, IIRC

 

[anglolawyer]

Here is a quote which in my mind should be enough to free Bamber. Therefore, I am not sure what I am missing:



If a police log records "Mr Bamber" as saying his daughter was going berserk with a gun, then it was either Nevill, of Jeremy pretending to be Nevill. I don't believe that latter has ever been alleged.

Now, OK, this is from the Daily Fail, but it is a direct quote, and they have been campaigning on this case for years.

I think this is one of the myths in this case.

Bamber called a PC West at Chelsmford police station and this individual recorded the time of the call as 3.36, a time he later corrected to 3.26. He called Malcolm Bonnet a civilian with responsibility for setting something or other in motion - despatch cars and firearms people perhaps. There are thus two notes, one for the call Bamber to West and another for the contemporaneous call West to Bonnet. 'Contemporaneous' because West was passing on info to Bonnet as Bamber was supplying it to him, with Bamber impatiently hanging on and wondering why everything was taking so long - in contrast to the 26 minutes he allowed to pass between Nevill's call at 3.00 a.m. (per Bamber himself) and his call to Chelmsford (see my post yesterday on how Bamber managed this highly suspicious gap).

Bonnet's note is therefore a record of what Bamber was telling West but it reads as though it is setting down first person statements made by Nevill. However, it also correctly records PC West's number - PC 1990 - and both Bonnet and West agree there was no such call made to either of them. What if they are lying, though?

Now, this is the problem for this particular conspiracy theory - for at least a month after the crime the prevailing view among the police, adamantly maintained by the senior investigator, DCI Taff Jones, was that this was a murder-suicide. Had a call been made by Nevill to the police that would have decisively resolved the issue in his favour. It follows that the call cannot have come to light at any point, that Bonnet himself must have entirely forgotten about it when reading all the controversy in the press, that it was somehow or other suppressed for absolutely no reason for the first month and then for a nefarious one ever after. Bonnet, an ordinary police civilian must be a liar in a mystery cause for some unseen reason. Is he living in luxury in the Cayman Islands, or running a wholly-owned pub on the Costa Brava or is he just the same humble mortal he was before and after this call? You decide.

And furthermore, if Nevill was speaking to Bonnet at the same time Bamber was speaking to West (with West speaking to Bonnet) wouldn't West have let on to Bamber that the police had already received a call from the farm and were on their way? Wouldn't Bonnet have told West 'hang on, the dad's just come on the phone and he's saying she's gone nuts with a rifle. Tell the boy to head over there, I'll organise a squad car and they will meet him there.'?

And we now have Nevill also calling a number that was not 999. How did he know Bonnet's number? Bonnet was not at Chelmsford nick. Did he just by coincidence manage to get through to the same guy that West was already speaking to? And we also now have a gap of 36 minutes between Nevill's call to Bamber and Nevill's call to Bonnet. 36 minutes?

I don't believe it.

 

[anglolawyer]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide
Multiple gunshot suicides are rare, but possible. In one study of 138 gunshot suicides, 5 (3.6%) involved two shots to the head, the first of which missed the brain.[1] A suicide with 4 gunshots to the head has been reported.[2]

Do not forget that a .22 is about the lightest firearm there is and a .22 subsonic has an even lower powder load than a standard .22 round.

Oh you've explained this before. I know double-shot suicides aren't unknown, but neither are faked ones. All I'm saying is that both possibilities take some imagining.

 

[Desert Fox]

I think this is one of the myths in this case.

Bamber called a PC West at Chelsmford police station and this individual recorded the time of the call as 3.36, a time he later corrected to 3.26. He called Malcolm Bonnet a civilian with responsibility for setting something or other in motion - despatch cars and firearms people perhaps. There are thus two notes, one for the call Bamber to West and another for the contemporaneous call West to Bonnet. 'Contemporaneous' because West was passing on info to Bonnet as Bamber was supplying it to him, with Bamber impatiently hanging on and wondering why everything was taking so long - in contrast to the 26 minutes he allowed to pass between Nevill's call at 3.00 a.m. (per Bamber himself) and his call to Chelmsford (see my post yesterday on how Bamber managed this highly suspicious gap).

Bonnet's note is therefore a record of what Bamber was telling West but it reads as though it is setting down first person statements made by Nevill. However, it also correctly records PC West's number - PC 1990 - and both Bonnet and West agree there was no such call made to either of them. What if they are lying, though?

Now, this is the problem for this particular conspiracy theory - for at least a month after the crime the prevailing view among the police, adamantly maintained by the senior investigator, DCI Taff Jones, was that this was a murder-suicide. Had a call been made by Nevill to the police that would have decisively resolved the issue in his favour. It follows that the call cannot have come to light at any point, that Bonnet himself must have entirely forgotten about it when reading all the controversy in the press, that it was somehow or other suppressed for absolutely no reason for the first month and then for a nefarious one ever after. Bonnet, an ordinary police civilian must be a liar in a mystery cause for some unseen reason. Is he living in luxury in the Cayman Islands, or running a wholly-owned pub on the Costa Brava or is he just the same humble mortal he was before and after this call? You decide.

And furthermore, if Nevill was speaking to Bonnet at the same time Bamber was speaking to West (with West speaking to Bonnet) wouldn't West have let on to Bamber that the police had already received a call from the farm and were on their way? Wouldn't Bonnet have told West 'hang on, the dad's just come on the phone and he's saying she's gone nuts with a rifle. Tell the boy to head over there, I'll organise a squad car and they will meet him there.'?

And we now have Nevill also calling a number that was not 999. How did he know Bonnet's number? Bonnet was not at Chelmsford nick. Did he just by coincidence manage to get through to the same guy that West was already speaking to? And we also now have a gap of 36 minutes between Nevill's call to Bamber and Nevill's call to Bonnet. 36 minutes?

I don't believe it.

Trying to stay awake at 4 am here. . . . .These were paper logs and this was in 1986. You are expecting an exactness that likely does not exist. Even now with a paper log, expect some of those times to be approximate especially if they forgot to put the times in initially.