Jeremy Bamber

[MikeG]

Well, indeed. Further, she contradicted herself, and may well not have written all of her statement herself. She was in the pay of the News of the World before, during and after the trial, and had 32 interviews with the police. Most disturbing of all is that she continued to live with JB after the murders. Now, if you knew that someone had slaughtered their family, would this be a sensible course of action?

 

[anglolawyer]

Catsmate - the whole phone mystery is a red herring, probably (with an interesting twist - see below). There were normally four phones at the farm, all sharing off one line. There was an office phone, which we can forget about, a kitchen phone, a cordless phone and an old fashioned rotary phone which was usually in the master bedroom.

The family mostly used the cordless and, according to Barbara Wilson, Nevill's secretary, they occasionally used that one in the kitchen when the cordless one was not available. They didn't like using the kitchen phone.

When the bodies were found, the kitchen phone was found to be 'hidden' under a pile of magazines in the kitchen, the bedroom phone was plugged into the kitchen socket, the cordless phone was out for repair and the office phone was in the office (I said forget the office phone). The handset was off the rotary phone.

This led to speculation that Bamber had pulled some stunt with the phones, switching things around, 'hiding' the kitchen phone etc but the truth is likely more banal (except for one thing).

The cordless phone, it so happens, had been sent for repair a couple of days before and so it seems likely, as they had before, that they had simply brought the bedroom phone downstairs. The kitchen phone was not 'hidden' under magazines. It was just under magazines. They didn't like using it. End of.

But, there are two things I find interesting about all this. One is the fact that the cordless phone stopped working only two days before. Did Bamber do that, knowing the bedroom phone would be brought down (or bringing it down himself) and thus ensuring no 999 call could be made from the bedroom as he trudged across the gravel with the dogs barking (a labrador called Bruno which slept in the barn and a rat like crapulous little ****** Shitzu piece of crap dog that slept in the kitchen and yapped a lot)? I think maybe.

The other thing is that in the version of the plan he imparted to Julie, he told her the hitman he had hired had been told to use the cordless phones memory function to call Bamber so there would be a preserved record of the fact of the call. I don't know when he told her this but I'm thinking this was plan A but he switched to plan B without telling her.

 

[anglolawyer]

Well, indeed. Further, she contradicted herself, and may well not have written all of her statement herself. She was in the pay of the News of the World before, during and after the trial, and had 32 interviews with the police. Most disturbing of all is that she continued to live with JB after the murders. Now, if you knew that someone had slaughtered their family, would this be a sensible course of action?

Yes, if you were in on the whole thing and expecting your share.

 

[MikeG]

That's an easy one . When they looked through the window they thought they saw a female body but when they entered they realised it was male. Back at the note-taking end they recorded one female and one male. Those who wish to argue that Sheila was dead on the kitchen floor but the cops thought it would be a spiffing wheeze to lug her upstairs are welcome to indulge their fantasies. I could use a larf.

Her first wound was declared by an expert at the trial not to have even severely incapacitated her. There is no need for the police to have lugged her body upstairs if she walked upstairs and shot herself again. Further, the police report wasn't 2 different people, one mistaking the body of Neville for a female......it was two officers (I think) each saying they saw two bodies in the kitchen.

 

[anglolawyer]

Her first wound was declared by an expert at the trial not to have even severely incapacitated her. There is no need for the police to have lugged her body upstairs if she walked upstairs and shot herself again. Further, the police report wasn't 2 different people, one mistaking the body of Neville for a female......it was two officers (I think) each saying they saw two bodies in the kitchen.

Citation please ...

 

[MikeG]

Citation please ...

I read it yesterday evening. I'll come back to this later, when I've got a moment.

 

[anglolawyer]

I read it yesterday evening. I'll come back to this later, when I've got a moment.

I think you heard it in the pub

 

[catsmate]

It is absolutely amazing how form trumps function to keep people in jail in these cases. Constrain the pursuit of truth to legal protocols, and it does everything for the system, and nothing for justice.
This will change with the internet age, but there is a lead time we are engaging with.

Yet you've failed to address the evidence for Bamber's guilt. Try dealing with that 'function'.

Another detail which has intrigued me is the report from one of the first officers to look into the kitchen that there were TWO bodies there......Neville & Sheila. <snip>
That needs explaining before Jeremy is guilty.

And it was explained, in some detail, at the CCRC hearing. One of the responding officers looked through the window and say Nevill's body but, as he had only a partial view, believed the body was female and reporting seeing a female body. When the kitchen door was forced the officers saw Nevill's body and reported that fact, stating that a male body had been found. In the CAD room the two reports were conflated and it was believed that two bodies were in the kitchen. No-one at the scene reported seeing two bodies in the kitchen.

From such molehills doth spring mountains...

And BTW the conjecture that the mythical "second body" was Sheilas is rubbish; if she'd been walking around after the first gunshot wound (medically possible) there would have been far more blood on her nightdress. Plus the timeline doesn't make sense.

It seems to turn on 20 year old Julie Mugford's very detailed statement.

And the evidence of course.

She is specific about times of a great number of events post the homicides.

Yes, and?

There is no chance they are contained within spontaneous testimony.

Unsupported assertion.

All the times are specified, for days and weeks in 10 minute rounded notation. It is suggested on IA that and elsewhere that she was coached.
Can a 20 year old be coached as jilted lover to create the villain of English history?
Hell, I don't know.

And the conspiratorial nonsense bubbles forth.

 

[catsmate]

That's an easy one . When they looked through the window they thought they saw a female body but when they entered they realised it was male. Back at the note-taking end they recorded one female and one male. Those who wish to argue that Sheila was dead on the kitchen floor but the cops thought it would be a spiffing wheeze to lug her upstairs are welcome to indulge their fantasies. I could use a larf.

I believe some of Bamber's apologists maintain that Sheila was still alive, got up and went to the mater bedroom and then shot herself for the second time there, while the police were entering the house

Catsmate - the whole phone mystery is a red herring, probably (with an interesting twist - see below). <snip>

Yep, I'm familiar with the phone saga.

The handset was off the rotary phone.

That interests me, some have suggested that Bamber did this to prevent a call for help from the other handsets.

This led to speculation that Bamber had pulled some stunt with the phones, switching things around, 'hiding' the kitchen phone etc but the truth is likely more banal (except for one thing).

Well the kitchen phone was in working order (it was tested a few days later) so perhaps something had been done. Or it could be one of those odd little details that mean nothing.

But, there are two things I find interesting about all this. One is the fact that the cordless phone stopped working only two days before. Did Bamber do that, knowing the bedroom phone would be brought down (or bringing it down himself) and thus ensuring no 999 call could be made from the bedroom as he trudged across the gravel with the dogs barking (a labrador called Bruno which slept in the barn and a rat like crapulous little ****** Shitzu piece of crap dog that slept in the kitchen and yapped a lot)? I think maybe.

Interesting, I was aware the cordless phone was being repaired but sabotage hadn't occurred to me.
Though I doubt that the Bambers would have phoned the police over an unexpected visitor, and would the dogs have reacted that much to him? Surely they'd be used to him, but I'm a cat person (obviously).

The other thing is that in the version of the plan he imparted to Julie, he told her the hitman he had hired had been told to use the cordless phones memory function to call Bamber so there would be a preserved record of the fact of the call. I don't know when he told her this but I'm thinking this was plan A but he switched to plan B without telling her.

Quite possible.

 

[catsmate]

Yes, if you were in on the whole thing and expecting your share.

AH, now that is an interesting idea. And eminently possible too.

Citation please ...

It's in the path report by Dr. Peter Vanezis, page 5.

The lower mound had caused substantial haemorrhage into soft tissues of the neck, principally from the eight external jugular vein. In my view this injury, although life threatening, would not have caused rapid death as in the other wound.

He goes on to state, and reiterated at the trial, that the wound would not necessarily have caused rapid unconsciousness and the Sheila might have been able to walk after sustaining it. Though there's no evidence to support her doing so.

 

[Desert Fox]

The hypothesis is that he was in the bedroom but because the cops stripped all the bloodied wallpaper and carpets the next day (can you believe that?) it ceased to be possible to distinguish his blood from anyone else's.

I assume that they could tell who go shot where by at least documenting the shell casings.

If there is not enough shell casings in the kitchen, then he most likely had been shot elsewhere.

 

[Desert Fox]

Well, if she is threatening you, your wife and your grandchildren I would think it a distinct possibility, but not a certainty, you're right. However, I find the phone call to Bamber vastly less credible both in practical and logical terms.

I used to live in rural New Hampshire. Interestingly enough, it was in the early to mid 1980s.

The nearest police I believe was a state police station which was 20 to 30 minutes away. There was no 911 in that area at that time so it would have to be a direct dial to that state police station.

Now we had a town local volunteer fire department which would come much quicker but no ambulance, just fire trucks. The nearest ambulance would come from a hospital a town away. I would say that too would take around twenty minutes.

Living in rural areas bred an independence where you did not always think that the first thing you might do is call the police. We had a large extended family living maybe a half mile away for us. Three households with grand parents, parents, and children. I very much imagine them calling each other first.

 

[Desert Fox]

Her first wound was declared by an expert at the trial not to have even severely incapacitated her. There is no need for the police to have lugged her body upstairs if she walked upstairs and shot herself again. Further, the police report wasn't 2 different people, one mistaking the body of Neville for a female......it was two officers (I think) each saying they saw two bodies in the kitchen.

I have been thinking about the angle of the shot. I believe it is accepted by all sides that the round went upwards as if the rifle is down by her knees. I have a hard time with that position being anything but a suicide.

Additionally, a person will react instinctively to anything pointed at the neck to knock it away. After she had seen everybody else get killed, you would have expected that she knew what was coming and would have fought.

 

[Desert Fox]

Nope.

You made a statement which was simply wrong. . . . .You stated that a person cannot clean GSR by just washing. I linked to a forensic source which indicates that washing does remove such traces and that simple time and movement can do the same thing.

:
And I pointed out that Sheila, should one accept the ludicrous theory that she was the killer, fired 25 shots. Even if one was to accept the idea that all the powder residue from the four murders disappeared somehow, the final two shots would have been fired by her while hugging the rifle. After that there'd be little movement from Sheila...

The senior officer was treating it as a suicide at first. How much care was taken initially, nobody knows, although likely not the best.

You cannot say that there was no GSR but none was detected. There are very different situations.

But still a detectable amount. There's also the lead residue, or rather the lack of it, from reloading at least twice.
And 25 shots, even with 1.25gr each, is equivalent to six or seven 9x19mm shots, would you dismiss such a discharge?

First off, the ammo which was suppose to have been used was covered with wax. How would that have effected how much lead one gets on their hands.

Second, we are not talking about a 9 mm automatic pistol but a rifle. My .22 Browning is recoil action but I do not believe that most .22 rifles are. I suspect that they are gas action which will further reduce unspent powder. My pistol however is much cleaner even when firing 50 rounds than my .45 is with a single magazine. More of it however seems to collect inside the weapon, likely the results of the gasses not being expelled with much force.

I wanted to explain something. If Shelia washed her hands, I see it as a reaction of remorse or cleansing one's sins. I have read papers where studies have indicated that people feel better after washing one's hands.

 

[anglolawyer]

Julie Mugford

The position of JM is absolutely key to this case. It's perfectly possible and understandable to write off her evidence as that of a woman scorned, but consider when doing so the profound implications - that just because she had been thrown over she would condemn an innocent man to spend the rest of his days in prison and that she would risk her own liberty to do so. Not impossible but is that really likely?

Now consider that she told a version of the truth. A whole lot of things make much more sense if she was not merely in the know but an active party to a conspiracy to murder. That is my suggestion. Her end would be marriage to Bamber, social elevation and financial gain. That's quite something for an unattractive, not very bright woman of limited brains and prospects.

Of her general character, we know she was a burglar, a fraudster and a sly actress - so the profile isn't bad. Let's look at the story she told. She did not claim to have discovered Bamber's plans after the fact. She knew, and admitted she knew, them in advance. She knew from as far back as 1984 when he was planning to put them to sleep and burn the house down with them inside it. She obtained and supplied him with temazapam which, with her knowledge, he tested on himself, reporting that they didn't work.

She knew in advance on the night of the crime what was going down. Bamber called at 10.00 p.m. and told her it was now or never. Did she call the police ... ? He called her after 3.00 a.m. to tell her it was all done. Did she call the police then ... ? No. She went into Sue Battersby's room to talk about the call or, as I think, to make sure Battersby had heard the phone ring and would corroborate Bamber's claim that he had called Julie. Why was this important?

Bamber had a problem. He had to account for the time he spent cycling home from the farm. There was going to be a suspicious gap between Nevill's alleged call to him and his call to the cops as a result. He filled that gap with the call to Julie and by claiming, falsely IMO, to have spent 'ten minutes at the outside' looking up the number for the local force and hanging on to get through, rather than taking 10 seconds to call 999. IIUC he even circled the cops' number in the phone book. How very artful.

Now, consider Julie's position. She backed up his story, which means at the very least she committed the serious offences of impeding police enquiries and perverting the course of justice. At the very least. So she was in it up to her neck. She played her part. The press coverage went well, as did the funeral, but then things started to unravel. Bamber was having too good a time with his rather too close friend, Brett Collins. She could sense she was being edged out. She had taken a huge risk for him but, as they drafted apart, he was threatening her she had to keep quiet or he would take her down with him, all the while playing the field with other women. She said later she was not afraid of him at first but that he started to fear her and that caused her to fear him.

Things came to a head. They had a massive bust up. She was not going to be lady of the manor after all. Bamber tried to fob her off with a paid holiday. She didn't take his money. She told Sue Batterby the whole story. She told another friend and then another. After a few weeks she went to the police.

Consider the risk she took. First, Bamber might make good his threat and take her down with him. She gambled, correctly, that he couldn't do that and she had a fall back position anyway - to call him a liar or to claim coercion. After all, she had not herself shot anybody. Second, the cops might prosecute her for murder, conspiracy or perverting justce. No getting out of that one, unless some kind of deal was done in advance. That's possible but there is no sign of her taking legal advice and I doubt she had the know-how to plot her way through such a deal. Her calculation must have been that since the trail had gone cold her evidence would be so essential to the cops that they would use her rather than accuse her.

And so it panned out. I believe its obvious why nobody focused on this angle. Nobody concerned in the affair had anything to gain by doing so. On the contrary, there was much to lose for everyone. I find it very credible that the DPP authorised some kind of informal deal conferring immunity. There are a few things to be said about that but I will pause at this point for any comment.

 

[Desert Fox]

Could have started with a more loose story which became more details as the cops coached her. In addition, they potentailly threatened her with being imprisoned for life.

Shades of Charles Erickson / Ryan Ferguson with the case. Struck also by the incredible story which Charles Boney told. Granted that in Boney's case, he was at the crime scene but it does not seem to have gone down as he described.

 

[anglolawyer]

Could have started with a more loose story which became more details as the cops coached her. In addition, they threatened her with being imprisoned for life. Shades of Charles Erickson / Ryan Ferguson with the case. Struck also by the incredible story which Charles Boney told. Granted that in Boney's case, he was at the crime scene but it does not seem to have gone down as he described.

Are you stating this as fact or surmise?

 

[Desert Fox]

Are you stating this as fact or surmise?

Sorry, it is meant as my personal speculation based on other cases.

 

[MikeG]

........Bamber had a problem. He had to account for the time he spent cycling home from the farm..........

I don't suppose anyone ever looked at his bike, did they? No, I thought not. If he had killed 5 people then ridden home, it's hard to see how the bike wouldn't have had some forensic evidence on it.

As for your theory.......hmmm. Dunno. It seems to have a lot to commend it. I am not really sure why JB would need her, though. I can see what might be in it for her, but for him? It's not so clear.

 

[anglolawyer]

I don't suppose anyone ever looked at his bike, did they? No, I thought not. If he had killed 5 people then ridden home, it's hard to see how the bike wouldn't have had some forensic evidence on it.

As for your theory.......hmmm. Dunno. It seems to have a lot to commend it. I am not really sure why JB would need her, though. I can see what might be in it for her, but for him? It's not so clear.

Such as? They did look at the bike but not for a month.

Well, she was handy for taking his call at 3.00 in the morning but it's a good question, I admit. We know they were lovers and partners in crime. Maybe he just trusted her or thought he could control her and had some uses for her.