New Article on Custer's Last Stand

Is there a reliable way to estimate Native American casualties? or the actual number of NA Warriors available for the battle?

There has to be a number where it wouldn't matter what Custer did, if he had executed perfect strategy, they would have gotten overrun. Are we anywhere close to that number, from your best estimate?
 
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It decidedly is not an advantage to fight on horseback against dismounted soldiers. Infantry will beat cavalry all day long for the simple fact that they're on the ground, can take advantage of cover, and can take steady aim. When you're on horseback you're a huge target and cannot fire accurately.

Definitely not true. Comanches fought only on horseback, and the Comanche were deadly fighters. They never dismounted in battle. They could let loose a hail of arrows with deadly accuracy in full gallop, as any history of the Texas Rangers will verify. They were almost impossible to hit while on horseback - they hid to the side of their horse, and often fired from under the front of the horse. If the horse was hit they generally had plentiful remounts.

I know that Comanches did not fight in this battle, and that the Comanche were the only Native Tribe to fight exclusively from horseback, but I find it hard to believe that these skills were not shared to some degree by the other Plains Tribes. I would not discount the possibility that Plains warriors fought quite effectively from horseback in any fight out on the Plains.
 
Is there a reliable way to estimate Native American casualties? or the actual number of NA Warriors available for the battle?

There has to be a number where it wouldn't matter what Custer did, if he had executed perfect strategy, they would have gotten overrun. Are we anywhere close to that number, from your best estimate?
[Pedant]I understand your meaning, so I'm not really criticizing you, but the pedant in me says that such a number does not really exist.

The infliction of casualties on the other side is, in the very strictest sense, only an incidental result of fighting. The real target is the will of the enemy to keep fighting. Charles XII of Sweden didn't get wiped out at Narva simply because the Russians got psychologically whipped. Similarly with Hooker against Lee at Chancellorsville. At almost any time at Chancellorsville, Hooker could simply have issued the orders "Everyone attack what's in front of you" and likely have won the day.

The British colonial wars are rife with such examples.

Even ignoring that, your scenario would require the Native American forces to actually do something. If they had ten million warriors who simply milled around the village as the 7th Cavalry rode around it shooting inwards, they would still have lost.
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But your real meaning, I take it, is that on the assumption the Native Americans merely acted competently and without major blunders and were also willing to take casualties commensurate with a standard force-on-force engagement, then yes, there probably is such a number. It's probably a fair bit higher than the numbers actually involved, but also probably not ridiculously so.
 
Definitely not true. Comanches fought only on horseback, and the Comanche were deadly fighters. They never dismounted in battle. They could let loose a hail of arrows with deadly accuracy in full gallop, as any history of the Texas Rangers will verify. They were almost impossible to hit while on horseback - they hid to the side of their horse, and often fired from under the front of the horse. If the horse was hit they generally had plentiful remounts.

I know that Comanches did not fight in this battle, and that the Comanche were the only Native Tribe to fight exclusively from horseback, but I find it hard to believe that these skills were not shared to some degree by the other Plains Tribes. I would not discount the possibility that Plains warriors fought quite effectively from horseback in any fight out on the Plains.

So Comanches could loose arrows "with deadly accuracy" from full gallop. That must have been a sight to see. I'm sure you can list all the battles where Comanches on horseback defeated infantry? Right?

What I said had nothing to do with Indians in particular. The advantages of infantry are clear: you can take cover and take careful aim. When you're on horseback you're a huge target and cannot fire accurately.

There are many examples in history of cavalry charging infantry and suffering badly for the result. I'm not going to do your reading for you. Cavalry had excellent uses in war: scouting, screening the opponents scouts, gathering supplies, conducting raids etc. They could be used against good infantry only after the infantry was somehow demoralized or already broken.

The plains Indians hated having to fight infantry for just these reasons. This is not some controversial point.
 
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Even before smallpox and cholera decimated Native American populations, the Tribes had a hard time keeping up their numbers. This is why adoption of captured children was such a widespread practice. Well aware of this fact, Native Americans made cowardice a virtue and disengaged from any fight which promised a large loss of life. The Indian Wars were most often hit and run affairs. In this context Little Big Horn was a massive concentration of force.

I don't have a problem with what you say except the misinformed use of "cowardice".
 
Is there a reliable way to estimate Native American casualties? or the actual number of NA Warriors available for the battle?

There has to be a number where it wouldn't matter what Custer did, if he had executed perfect strategy, they would have gotten overrun. Are we anywhere close to that number, from your best estimate?

Like everything else, Indian accounts are all over the place. It was probably in the 30-40 range, maybe a bit more. The disparity in numbers killed is one of the indicators that things weren't quite right (260+ soldiers and scouts killed).

I'm not sure what you mean by "a number where it wouldn't matter what Custer did..." You mean so many Indians that Custer would have been wiped out no matter what?
 
Yes basically, that is what I am referring to.

A number of warriors that even a perfectly executed defense would not have been able to withstand being overrun. If Custer had killed 600 warriors, and still gotten slaughtered, would the mistakes be less focused on?
 
Yes basically, that is what I am referring to.

A number of warriors that even a perfectly executed defense would not have been able to withstand being overrun. If Custer had killed 600 warriors, and still gotten slaughtered, would the mistakes be less focused on?
The concept is interesting in both military history and other areas. I find that some are too quick to crown someone a great or poor strategist or tactician based on one victory or loss and sometimes completely disregard the actions of that leader's opponents.

The most obvious examples actually come in sports when analysts say things like "The Podunk Mediocres had a really bad offense tonight." They totally ignore that the PMs may have been executing brilliantly on all cylinders but were up against a defense that was executed even better.

It's sort of like George Pickett after the American Civil War when asked what went wrong at Gettysburg. His reply was "I've always thought the Yankees had something to do with it."
 
Yes basically, that is what I am referring to.

A number of warriors that even a perfectly executed defense would not have been able to withstand being overrun. If Custer had killed 600 warriors, and still gotten slaughtered, would the mistakes be less focused on?

That's probably true. In many people's eyes, he's already extolled for making a heroic stand against impossible odds. If he'd killed more Indians, it would have made the stand even more heroic.

For example: "Even though overwhelmed by thousands of Indians, Custer's brave men made them pay a terrible price...".

Or: "Even though Custer lost his life, his campaign was a great success as he inflicted so many casualties that the Indians were forced to return to the agencies."
 
That's probably true. In many people's eyes, he's already extolled for making a heroic stand against impossible odds. If he'd killed more Indians, it would have made the stand even more heroic.

For example: "Even though overwhelmed by thousands of Indians, Custer's brave men made them pay a terrible price...".

Or: "Even though Custer lost his life, his campaign was a great success as he inflicted so many casualties that the Indians were forced to return to the agencies."
While that reasoning can and does lead to elevation to hero status, I think it frequently (mostly?) takes a back seat to bravery for bravery's sake as opposed to bravery for outcome's sake. Even Little Bighorn falls into that to some degree; most people have no idea regarding any strategic impact; they just know "Custer and his brave men fought to the last."

Add the Alamo to that along with the Wagon Box Fight and you see it even more.
 
I find it astonishing that there should be any mythologising about this genocidal maniac. Custer was a repellent murderer, perfectly willing to ride in at dawn and shoot defenceless women and children. Let's get back to the battle.
 
I find it astonishing that there should be any mythologising about this genocidal maniac. Custer was a repellent murderer, perfectly willing to ride in at dawn and shoot defenceless women and children. Let's get back to the battle.
The mythologizing was mostly done 140 years ago, and by nobody here. And you're the one talking genocide. IIRC, the rest of us were talking about the battle. Custer's attempt to round up the women and children and use them to force the braves to surrender and meekly return to the rez failed pretty early on.
 
I find it astonishing that there should be any mythologising about this genocidal maniac. Custer was a repellent murderer, perfectly willing to ride in at dawn and shoot defenceless women and children. Let's get back to the battle.

Sure, you can think that. Plenty of people do. I joined this thread partly to add some details to what actually happened as opposed to the usual cartoonish depiction of this battle. Many people's views of Custer were shaped by the movie "Little Big Man." I don't see that changing.

I don't see a lot of genocide being committed by Custer, but to each his own. He took part in precisely two significant Indian fights, and in one of them he did a whole more getting killed than killing.

In the other battle he succeeded in attacking a sleeping village with the result that a significant number of women and children were killed (maybe 75). In doing so, he was following standard army tactics of the time. I guess you could say that makes him a murderer. By that standard, bombers who attack enemy positions near villages would be murderers, too, as would many others taking part in combat with civilians in the way.

I'm not as conversant with the Washita fight but I'm not aware of charges that women and children were specifically targeted. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was "shoot anything that moves" during the initial stages of the fight.

Neither am I aware of any mass killings by Custer, no lining up of innocents and murdering them after the fight. Maybe others can enlighten me on that.

Anyway, as I said, I'm neither a big fan of nor a hater of Custer. I'm more interested in the historical mysteries of the battle itself, so I'm more than happy to focus on that.
 
As a further aside on Custer and genocide, I was at the battlefield in June 1987 or 1988 (can't remember which). The Sioux had announced plans to come onto the battlefield and erect a memorial to the Indians who died there. I was on Battle Ridge when that happened. They dug out a small rectangular pit next to the soldier monument, poured in concrete, and scratched out a message in the wet concrete (I can't remember what it said but I think I have a picture of it somewhere).

Afterwards, Russell Means gave a short speech. I remember thinking that he really knows nothing at all about the details of this battle. His speech included the assertion that Custer was a "mass-murderer".

Idiot that I was, I thought he might enjoy learning that although Custer had a lot of faults, he wasn't a mass-murderer. After he finished, I was able to get his attention as he was walking away. I started by saying something like "Custer really wasn't a mass-murderer...". That was the end of our little talk. Russell angrily swiped his arm through the air, and said "He WAS a mass-murderer". Then he whirled around and stalked away.

By the way, the Crow Indians working in the museum were livid about their historical enemies the Sioux coming on the Crow reservation to set up their own memorial.
 
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Custer's Last Stand during The Battle of the Little Bighorn has been subject to acres and acres of print analysis, archeology and Sunday morning quarterbacking.

Frankly the information we got is still woefully incomplete but here are a couple of things to keep in mind.

1, The Army and Custer was very worried about the Indians running away and dispersing. The idea that the Indians would stand and fight a pitched battle was not something Custer and Gibbon gave a lot of thought to.

Thus Custer's plan of battle was designed to capture the Indians, or as many has possible, before they got away. Hence Custer dividing up his command, basically in order to help close off escape routes.

2. A few days before the Battle of the Little Bighorn. The Indians had attacked Crook at the Battle of the Rosebud. This day long engagement had been tactically indecisive, although the Indians eventually withdrew. Crook was so shaken that he retreated after the battle. Crook had c. 1,000 soldiers and c. 200 Indian scouts and he had narrowly avoided a serious tactical defeat. For years it had been assumed that the Indians ha hugely outnumbered Crook, (2,000 - 4,000 warriors.). This now appears to be wrong. More likely it was the Indians who were outnumbered. (c. 750-1,000). It appears that Indian leadership was very good in this engagement. (Crazy Horse for example).

Basically the Indians were primed for a showdown with the Army. Crazy Horse was angling for the Indians to fight something like set piece battles and Sitting Bull had just gone through the Sun Dance ceremony in which he had had a vision of Soldiers falling in camp and thus a great victory. The Indians were psychologically set up for a battle and victory. Custer and Gibbon had no idea of the temperament of the Indians they were seeking and they were not aware of the military consequences of such a temperament, i.e., the Battle of the Rosebud, which indicated that the Indians would stand and fight and fight hard.

3. Custer's apparent plan makes sense if we accept that from his point of view the problem was getting at the Indians before they got away. If the Indians stood and fought it would in all likelihood become unglued. And Custer was not aware that the Indians would in fact stand and fight.

4. Indian numbers in the battle. There is a very long and interminable debate about the size of the Indian village at the Little Bighorn. It appears that previous figures that give a huge size to the village are dubious and figures of 5,000 warriors are gross exaggerations. In fact I t appears that the upper limit to the number of warriors present is probably 3,000. Although these days figures of 1,500-2,000 are given more frequently and even figures of under 1,000.

5. Regardless of the figures it appears that c. 200 Indian warriors had rifles that were superior to the carbines that Custer's troops had.

6. Reno apparently thought that Custer was going to attack in concert with him. And when Custer for whatever reason apparently did not felt betrayed and left to twist in the wind.

7. If the Indian warrior numbers were anything like 3,000 than Benteen and Reno going to rescue Custer would have been a fools errand. It only makes sense has a practical move if we significantly downgrade Indian numbers. Otherwise it would have been suicide. If such was the case then Benteen's caution was sensible if non heroic.

If Indian numbers were far less than Benteen and Reno's refusal to move en-mass, (I should point out they could not have moved their entire united command, some men, at least 100 would have been left behind.), doomed Custer's command to complete extinction.

8. Custer's command was probably obliterated in a very short period of time probably well under an hour. The odds against them were too great. So the window of opportunity to save some of Custer's men was probably brief.

9. Given Custer's tactics which were based on a misreading of the Indians intentions, temperament and leadership. Given the likely number of actual Indian warriors, (Probably 1,500-2,000), a serious defeat was all too likely. Custer and his associates had committed one of the most serious mistakes a military commander can make. They had misread their opponents and had adopted a strategy based on that misreading that played directly into their enemies hands.

10. The fact that Indian losses were far less than Custer and his command's is proof of the actual odds against Custer. The best available evidence indicates that at most 60 Indians died in the battle or of wounds later on and this includes c. 10 women and children. And it likely that this figure is too high and the actual figure is c. 30-40 warriors. Whereas c. 250 men of the seventh cavalry died. This doesn't include the dead Indian scouts.

11. the siege of Benteen and Reno's troops do not give a good indication of whether or not if they had united with the remnant of Custer's command they would have been able hold the Indians off because it appears that the attacks on Benteen and Reno by the Indians were not serious or in fact meant seriously on the part of the Indians.

It was a pretty one sided victory for the Indians. And it appears that has few has 14 Indians may have died in the actual Custer's Last Stand battle has against c.200 of in the command surrounding Custer that was completely whipped out.

In conclusion I think that the recent suggestion that Custer's plan involved something similar to what he had done at the Washita in 1868, i.e., capture Indian noncombatants and thus prevent the Indians from running away and forcing them to back off, was something like he was planning to do. Sadly for him it didn't work and instead of running away the Indians were determined and closed in on him. It appears that the Indians, Crazy Horse in particular, after repulsing Reno deliberately concentrated against Custer's command and destroyed it. It was not the way Custer et al were expecting the Indians to behave.

As for Reno and Benteen. While it is true that if Indian warrior numbers were c. 3,000 then going to Custer's assistance would have been suicidal, although if Indian numbers were significantly less, had they done so they might have been able to rescue some of Custer's men. But sadly I agree that personal animus played a role in it. Benteen deeply resented the fact Custer had at the Washita in 1868 left a group of c. 35 men behind and all 35 had been killed. Reno also didn't like Custer. All of this probably helped to them to decide to leave Custer to stew in his own juices. And has such significantly damages their professional reputation.

As indicated above it is debatable weather or not Reno and Benteen could have saved Custer's command or much of it at all or if they would have been cut up also. It all depends on Indian numbers. It does seem to be the case that by the time Weir started out Custer's command was almost entirely if not completely destroyed. But of course how long the destruction of Custer's command is subject to conflicting debates. It does appear that most Indian accounts talk about a short battle of less than an hour and some as little has 20 minutes.

As for who was responsible for the disaster at the Little Bighorn. Well I would give credit to Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Gall and the Indians who took full advantage of the "mistakes" of Custer et al to score a signal victory. I would agree that Reno and Benteen likely left Custer in the lurch for less than credible personal reasons. Whether this in the end this had any practical effect is subject to debate.
 
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It does appear that most Indian accounts talk about a short battle of less than an hour and some as little has 20 minutes.
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Your wall of text kind of looks like a post-and-run but I'll proceed on the assumption that you're interested in a legitimate exchange of ideas. It might be helpful to pare down your postings into manageable bites for discussion. Many of things you've posted have been presented and discussed upthread, so you might consider reviewing that then adding your own take on individual points. If your intent is to say "this is what I believe and that's the end of it" then obviously there's no basis for discussion.

I won't try to address your many points but will note that Indian estimates of the length of Custer's battle are nearly worthless. Eyewitness estimates of time passage are notoriously unreliable, and even more so in this case because the Indians were not used to using white men's time.

Timeline analysis is one of the most important tools for understanding this battle. The several moving columns, with messengers and sightings tying them together, allow us to construct a pretty reliable timetable of events. Custer's battle can be timed within a fairly narrow range by relating the sound of gunfire to the timeline established for Reno and Benteen.

We have numerous accounts of when Custer's heavy firing began, when it faded, and when it ended. We also have an excellent end point of the battle set by the downstream move of Weir's Company D and what they were able to see of the battlefield from Weir Point. From that, a timeline can be constructed for the Custer fight without relying on dubious direct estimates like "20 minutes".
 
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The mythologizing was mostly done 140 years ago, and by nobody here. And you're the one talking genocide. IIRC, the rest of us were talking about the battle. Custer's attempt to round up the women and children and use them to force the braves to surrender and meekly return to the rez failed pretty early on.

The two posts above mine were discussing Custer's status as hero. I was simply responding. FYI Hollywood was mythologising Custer well into the last century, casting Errol Flynn, no less. A discussion about the merits of the design of the gas chambers at Auschwitz and the ingenuity and fortitude of the camp commandant would be similar to this one, IMO, not that I am not both fascinated and instructed by it.
 
Getting back to the topic, can I ask about the weaponry on either side? How did the Indians come by their firearms, for instance? How effective were bows and arrows, tomahawks etc? What effect, if any, did the cavalry's lack of sabres have and why were they left behind? Were they considered an impediment of some kind? Did the cavalry have bayonets? I'm guessing not but wonder why.
 
Getting back to the topic, can I ask about the weaponry on either side? How did the Indians come by their firearms, for instance? How effective were bows and arrows, tomahawks etc? What effect, if any, did the cavalry's lack of sabres have and why were they left behind? Were they considered an impediment of some kind? Did the cavalry have bayonets? I'm guessing not but wonder why.

The First Nations, lacking the manufacturing capability to make their own, did what they'd been doing since Sammy Champlain showed up - traded what they had that Europeans wanted for what they wanted. In Canada this generally meant beaver pelts and there was an extensive trade for what the First Nations wanted - generally steel knives and axes, copper kettles, trade blankets and firearms.

By the time of the Battle, very few warriors would have been using bows and arrows - they had long recognized the superiority of firearms for both hunting and war and firearms should be considered the primary weapon. The Henry rifle was very popular, as it was a repeater and could be easily handled due to its size while on horse.

Since US Cavalry was essentially mounted infantry during this time, I would say that the lack of sabres affected the outcome of the battle not a jot. Sabres are only useful if you are running down broken infantry, or fighting other cavalry chest to chest - and then revolvers are more effective. Only the Europeans and the Turks were considering cavalry to be something other than infantry on horseback at this time in history. Cavalry weapons were different from infantry patterns - cavalry carried shorter carbines and could not take a bayonet. Shorter barrelled weapons being easier to handle while mounted, and the weight of a bayonet would throw off the balance of such a weapon while shooting.
 
Custer never committed genocide and to bring up gas chambers is beyond ridiculous and an insult to the memory of those who actually endured such horrors.

I asked for an example of Custer's genocide but was ignored because there are no examples to be given. As you may have guessed, I'm not a big fan of baseless hyperbole. If it gets repeated, I'll repeat my objection and again call for factual evidence to support such claims.

And for those who might be confused by the meanings of words:

"Genocide is the systematic elimination of all or a significant part of a racial, ethnic, religious, cultural or national group."
 
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