Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Agatha]

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Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Agatha

 

[RWVBWL]

Caught in a Trap

Apologies to the gang,
when I converse with peps in person or online,
I never just have 1 or 2 sentences to speak,
and sometimes, well I can get carried away when conversin',
ya know?

Just like as I do here at the beach
with allll the different folks I converse with at the many surfspots I might stop on by.

The waves are pumping here in L.A. right now, I've already chatted with a cute Luftansa flight stewardess who just arrived, after a straight 12 hour flight from Germany, back in town for a short 1 +1/2 day layover, she too is waitin' for the tide to drop and to surf the waves as they get better. The surf crew is here, there will be over a hundred surfers in the local waters today, sun is out, gonna be a great day. I hope that yours is too!


I feel for ya folks that have to type your posts for The ISF on a phone,
man, I know that most of you guys and girlz have more than 1 or 2 sentences to say, right?

That said,
I really luved Strozzi's recent mention of no bleach getting splatted on Amanda and Raff's clothing or shoes. Ecks, their hands shoulda been gnarled by using all that bleach for the clean-up! And that mop! How did they dry it so fast so as to make it look like it was unused?

With the hairdryer in Filo's bathroom?

Man, whoever had to do that musta hated the stench of "poor Rudy's' fresh feces sliding down the toilet bowl. Odd how Miss Knox and [SIZE="-7"]Raff[/SIZE] didn't leave any biological samples in the small bathroom. Amanda musta gotten pretty good at usin' the scrub brush after all the crap that Mez gave her.

Golly gee,
I might, if I had a Suspicious Mind,
think that [SIZE="-7"]The Raff[/SIZE] and Foxy Knoxy were gonna frame "poor Rudy" for Miss Kercher's rape + murder, right? They weren't gonna be "caught in a trap", ain't no walkin' out, because they luved each other too much baby to turn on another, even when placed in solitary confinement...

But, but, but, I wonder,
what the convo was like with [SIZE="-7"]The Raff[/SIZE]
where it was decided by Amanda To Blame it All on My Boss.
For surely this too shoulda been discussed as they cleaned up their DNA traces...

That way "poor Rudy",
out dancin' instead of helpin' to clean up,
err, or was he already fleein' the country,
can have a decent chance of escapin'...
Run Rudy, run...


As Miss Knox + [SIZE="-7"]Mr. Sollecito[/SIZE] are not sitting in a hot Italian prison anymore, I know that their day is gonna be good.
I hope that "poor Rudy" suffers abit today.
And so do the Guilters.

Heck, what with the recent Italian Supreme Court ruling,
surely you guilters must be questioning how you could be sooo wrong about this case we discuss, right?
Hahaha...
RW

PS - Playin' in my background:
The King beltin' it out!
Some of that "JailHouse Rock",
Yea!

 

[Numbers]

In the Knox - Sollecito case, and to criminal justice, there have been differing "frames of reference" of presumption of innocence v. presumption of guilt adopted by different Italian courts. Only the "presumption of innocence" frame of reference is allowed by the Italian Constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights. The "presumption of guilt" is considered unfair to accused persons.

In the usual common-law system, the accused are presumed to be innocent, meaning that the State has the responsibility of proving them guilty. Thus, any forensic test performed by the State must be shown to be performed and interpreted in a credible manner. For example, the collection, testing, and interpretation must have met accepted scientific standards, and the State must show that contamination or inappropriate methods have not produced false inculpatory results.

In the Italian judicial system, the procedural law requires that a conviction may only be pronounced if the accused's guilt is established by proof beyond a reasonable doubt (CPP Art. 533, para. 1), and that the existence of a fact cannot be inferred from circumstantial evidence unless such evidence is "serious, precise and consistent" (CPP Art. 192, para. 2). However, in the Knox - Sollecito case, some of the judges, such as Massei, Chieffi, and Nencini reversed the presumption of innocence into a presumption of guilt, for example, by requiring that contamination be proven by the defendant, rather than freedom from contamination be established by the State. Furthermore, the State was allowed to present forensic DNA data without establishing its essentially validity or credibility. Thus, the "frame of reference" (presumption of which side must establish proof) was reversed by those courts.

There is a problem with using the "presumption of guilt" frame of reference, because it is the State which makes the accusations and has policing power and authority and also has disproportionately large resources and facilities compared to the accused. Thus, the State can, for example, by intentional fraud or by mistake in forensic tests, give the accused an appearance of guilt, while the accused does not have access to samples of the evidence or forensic technology, unless provided for by court order.

 

[Numbers]

I am not debating how long the trial should be before it breaches human rights, but ECHR has frequently criticised Italy on the length of time to complete a trial (as we see here). This is not a particularly complex case. Nor do I know enough about the Italian law to know whether or not this was a usual or unusual or illegal action by cassation. But they obviously had a choice to prolong the case by returning the case to yet another second level trial with yet another review by cassation, or stop the case, they decided on the latter. I just wonder whether the need to achieve completion will be part of their justification for not doing what would seem to be the more routine option of redirecting to yet another second level court.

Planigale,

Thanks for the additional explanation. I see your point now.

It is indeed possible that the Marasca CSC panel saw that the evidence did not at all support a finding of guilt, or raise any question of the involvement of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in the crime. Therefore, they exercised their authority to annul the Nencini court verdict and acquit.

The Marasca CSC panel may have considered that the trial had gone on long enough and should no continue under the circumstances of there being no reliable evidence against Knox and Sollecito. And certainly they should have considered ECHR case-law on the length of trials.

I believe that an objective observer would find that there was no valid reason for any arrest or trials of Knox or Sollecito, in accordance with Italian law or ECHR case-law.

 

[Ken Dine]

I am not debating how long the trial should be before it breaches human rights, but ECHR has frequently criticised Italy on the length of time to complete a trial (as we see here). This is not a particularly complex case. Nor do I know enough about the Italian law to know whether or not this was a usual or unusual or illegal action by cassation. But they obviously had a choice to prolong the case by returning the case to yet another second level trial with yet another review by cassation, or stop the case, they decided on the latter. I just wonder whether the need to achieve completion will be part of their justification for not doing what would seem to be the more routine option of redirecting to yet another second level court.

When Marasca announced their exoneration back on March 27th, he said back then that the reason they were ending the case instead of sending the case back down for further review was since there was zero credible evidence pointing at their guilt, there was simply nothing further left for a lower court to review.

 

[Ken Dine]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oTTNHveadw

This **** is too funny!

Since she should know by now that Amanda is innocent and wasn't involved in Meredith's murder, rapper Misty deserves to get sued for both slander and libel, but I doubt if Amanda will do it.

The comments below that video are filled with the ravings of Harry Rag and Corpus Vile, two of the biggest "Guilter' losers around.

Seriously, those two guys must spend every waking hour posting their tripe, and even though their side has lost, it doesn't seem to have slowed down their HATE postings at all.

 

[Numbers]

Since she should know by now that Amanda is innocent and wasn't involved in Meredith's murder, rapper Misty deserves to get sued for both slander and libel, but I doubt if Amanda will do it.

The comments below that video are filled with the ravings of Harry Rag and Corpus Vile, two of the biggest "Guilter' losers around.

Seriously, those two guys must spend every waking hour posting their tripe, and even though their side has lost, it doesn't seem to have slowed down their HATE postings at all.

Someone who is actually guilty - of a violation of ethics and of human rights, and possibly of abuse of office - in this case is Patrizia Stefanoni. Her 30 September 2008 letter to Judge Micheli refusing to turn over copies of the raw DNA data (electronic data files) is available in the original Italian, and with English translation, on:

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/case-files-reports/

In the letter, she refuses to turn over the raw data because that would only be required if "one hypothesizes falsification of the data presented."

And of course, that concern, and concerns about contamination levels, and about potential alternative interpretations of the data, is precisely why turning over the DNA test raw data files is a standard procedure in the US and internationally.

 

[Vixen]

Are you trying to flip this discussion and avoid the fact that you don't like Amanda because she was a healthy young woman exploring her sexuality?

That somehow that makes her guilty of a heinous crime? You can't even point to a phone call or a text between Rudy and Amanda/Raffaele, yet your mind is so sick and twisted you think that they would engage in some kind of violent rape murder with this stranger. That's not only sick, it's STUPID.

You have constantly referred to Amanda as dirty, immoral and some kind of degenerate. You with your snide comments based on nonsense. Moronic little remarks about soap.

It all makes me feel very sorry.

Really? You think someone wielding a knife for "extreme experiences" is "a healthy young woman"?

 

[Desert Fox]

Really? You think someone wielding a knife for "extreme experiences" is "a healthy young woman"?

Even if you disagree with us, can't you at least understand that Tesla believes that Amanda was involved in no fashion with the murder of her roommate?

 

[bagels]

Really? You think someone wielding a knife for "extreme experiences" is "a healthy young woman"?

It's good exercise for the joints and teaches hand eye coordination.

 

[Vixen]

Even if you disagree with us, can't you at least understand that Tesla believes that Amanda was involved in no fashion with the murder of her roommate?

Logical fallacy to claim to speak for someone else.

I don't believe acbytesla or anybody here genuinely believes Raff and Amanda are innocent. Acbytesla admitted he fancied Amanda.

 

[Vixen]

Well if you believe that Knox bought bleach that morning, on the way from Sollecito's to her flat, to use it to clean the crime scene, then the bleach would have been used that morning. If you believe the postal police arrived unexpectedly they presumably interrupted cleaning. You previously said you thought Knox was found with a mop in her hand by the postal police. So on this train of thought the bleach would be fresh. Not only would Sollecito / Knox have to make a series of phone calls but also get rid of all the cleaning materials without the police noticing, or subsequently Filomena and friends.

My point is none of this makes sense.

She was witnessed in Quintavalle's shop looking at the hardware stuff. Even if she didn't buy any, she showed an interest in household cleaners.

Read Amanda's email home. She is the one with a convoluted story about the mop, carrying it backwards and forwards at early o'clock by her own account.

 

[Desert Fox]

Logical fallacy to claim to speak for someone else.

I don't believe acbytesla or anybody here genuinely believes Raff and Amanda are innocent. Acbytesla admitted he fancied Amanda.

Tesla has repeatedly state that he believes Amanda is innocent. I am simply repeating what he has posted in many posts.

For the record, I genuinely believe that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are completely innocent of anything to do with the death of Meredeth Kercher. A careful look at the evidence actually precludes them being involved in any manner.

What I don't understand is why any person could not understand that people are of a different opinion. There are plenty of defendants whom I believe are innocent where others believe they are guilty. There is also the reverse where there are defendants whom I believe are guilty while there are others who they believe are innocent. I do not believe they are lying or dishonest, I just believe that they are wrong.

I do however question your personal integrity. Many people have called you out on multiple statements that have been dishonest.

 

[Vixen]

Why do the guilters and her need to misrepresent the facts if they are trying to present the truth? Why do they have to make up lies, like mixed blood, bleach receipts etc.

Vixen continues to cite as evidence newpaper articles. These in her mind represent the most compelling of arguments. When asked why this information was not brought forth in the trial her answer usually amounts to that the prosecutors just chose not to. But that doesn't make the info less valid. This baffles me.

She thinks I have a crush on Amanda. While I think Amanda is attractive, that is not enough to hand her or anyone a free pass to kill. If I actually thought that Amanda was guilty of this crime, I wouldn't care if they put her in prison forever. I want justice to be done. But punishing innocent people is not justice, it's just sick.

Where is the evidence? Vixen's explanation is that the cops and prosecutors and forensic techs thinks there is evidence. Talk about sucking up to authority. I was taught to use my own mind.

Why is it that people like Vixen think that 3 people that altogether knew each other for less than 2 weeks. (IIRC) Two of which didn't know each other at all. Without ever calling texting or emailing each other got together to murder the roommate of one of them? Particularly when one of them was supposed to work that night? And then why would they cover for each other? Oh, I forgot, they could hardly communicate with each other?

Frankly, I think this is not just deranged it is flat out stupid. I'll grant anyone that strange things do happen. But you HAVE TO PROVE THEM!. Which hasn't been close to have done. While the evidence to exonerate them is not perfect, its pretty damn good. And the evidence to convict is not only weak it's suspect as hell. Vixen and Machiavelli defend Mignini and Stefanoni as if the fact that they must be reliable since they have positions of authority.

But this is really dumb as there are people like them all over the world. Nifong for example comes to mind.

There is one reason and one reason only that Amanda and Raffaele were finally declared innocent. And that is they were innocent and the whole world knew it. (Morons excepted)

Your reasoning falls flat, when you consider Rudy barely knew Mez at all.

 

[Vixen]

One kind of sexual immorality is slut-shaming. Review Vixen's posts and do the math.

We are still waiting patiently for a citation showing Amanda was ever called a slut by anybody, apart from Pacelli.

No, there isn't one. It a straw man.

 

[Vixen]

Since A and R were accused of wiping away all traces of their participation in a violent and gory murder, they would have had to use the bleach in thorough cleaning of select areas of the house - Victim's floor, walls, door, baseboards, hallway tiles, doorknobs, etc. Bleach stains (discolors) clothes. If the defendants cleaned so much surface area with bleach they surely got some of it on their clothes.

Why were their clothes in good, unstained, unsplashed condition? Why were the police or forensic police so lax in not collecting Amanda's blue jacket or other clothes for weeks after the crime when the prosecutor claimed that the defendants selectively cleaned the crime scene of their prints while leaving Rudi's?

Strozzi, we are all still waiting patiently for an explanation of what happened to the bag Amanda and Raff says she took round for clothes?

 

[Bill Williams]

We are still waiting patiently for a citation showing Amanda was ever called a slut by anybody, apart from Pacelli.

No, there isn't one. It a straw man.

Vixen, your posts here are (in the main) slut-shaming. I'm unsure why you would want to deny it. No one is saying you've called anyone a slut, but the concept is quite clear. (So speaking of strawman arguments! Way to go in claiming you knew what it was about.... when apparently you did not.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slut-shaming

 

[bagels]

Logical fallacy to claim to speak for someone else.

I don't believe acbytesla or anybody here genuinely believes Raff and Amanda are innocent. Acbytesla admitted he fancied Amanda.

It actually makes sense to me that a mind impenetrable to Amanda's obvious innocence would think nobody else could truly believe her innocent as well. I would think this view is common in most guilters in some form or another.

 

[Vixen]

Tesla has repeatedly state that he believes Amanda is innocent. I am simply repeating what he has posted in many posts.

For the record, I genuinely believe that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are completely innocent of anything to do with the death of Meredeth Kercher. A careful look at the evidence actually precludes them being involved in any manner.

What I don't understand is why any person could not understand that people are of a different opinion. There are plenty of defendants whom I believe are innocent where others believe they are guilty. There is also the reverse where there are defendants whom I believe are guilty while there are others who they believe are innocent. I do not believe they are lying or dishonest, I just believe that they are wrong.

I do however question your personal integrity. Many people have called you out on multiple statements that have been dishonest.

When all else fails, resort to logical fallacy #15: ad hominem.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, your posts here are (in the main) slut-shaming. I'm unsure why you would want to deny it. No one is saying you've called anyone a slut, but the concept is quite clear. (So speaking of strawman arguments! Way to go in claiming you knew what it was about.... when apparently you did not.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slut-shaming

Rubbish. It is sexist nonsense on yours and acbytesla's part. You slam homophobia yet hypocritically advocate sexism. I am supposed to need a good lay according to acbytesla. Shocking!!!