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Jeremy Corbyn might actually win?

Craig B said:
You're now defining the left-right spectrum in terms of voters. Weighted for numbers supporting each party?
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"Now"? I always have. Each voter has the same weight.

If so, you prevent yourself from being able to say things like "voters are moving to the right and all the main parties are following them" (If such a thing were to happen).
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Yes. On the whole I suspect these declarations are rich in the subjective bias of the declarer. But yes it is a limitation. I don't think "voters are moving right" though. Not that I will be arguing about that (again).
 
GlennB said:
Yes, and a large part of that piece is classic "poisoning the well" by ranting about Trump et al.
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Maybe Donald Trump supporters think it poisons their well too.

But I suspect the support of Corbyn, Sanders, Trump, Le Pen, and Tsipras actually, have common causes. Tsipras is the only one to win power, and so far the only example of how ineffective the populist wave tends to become in power (broadly, it becomes orthodox).
 
Francesca R said:
"Now"? I always have. Each voter has the same weight.

Yes. On the whole I suspect these declarations are rich in the subjective bias of the declarer. But yes it is a limitation. I don't think "voters are moving right" though. Not that I will be arguing about that (again).
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My point is not that such a statement would be true or not; but that your definition of left and right prevents you from observing it, even if it - or a move to the left - were to take place.
 
Andy Burnham has made an unabashed pitch for the leftwing Jeremy Corbyn vote in the Labour leadership contest, saying that the party has been “dancing to the tune of the Tories for too long”.

Link

Yep. Exactly what some of us here have been saying for a while now.

Burnham, somewhat late in the day, appreciates the attraction of the Corbyn movement. Mainly because he can't stand the thought of not being the next Labour leader and will now spout whatever hypocrisy is required to win.
 
Francesca R said:
Sure. But I suspect these "static" assessments fall prey to subjective biases and end up saying more about who is doing the assessment than they do about voters. Hence much less useful.
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In most cases, you are probably right, but I think it's entirely possible to present an unbiased spectrum with a centre line that can be used as a metric.

USA, for instance has two parties to the right of most Commonwealth centre lines.
 
Not that it matters. Labour are finished now, these are just the spasms of a dying movement.
 
Rat said:
That feels a little like an ad hom, but certainly I don't see racism as a necessary or defining aspect of the right wing, and if it is, I think the terms 'left wing' or 'right wing' are even more meaningless. I'm sure there are many who are unflinchingly right wing and not at all racist, and I have known many old-fashioned left-wing union men who are as racist as they come.

The things that Tebbit listed are pretty much defining aspects of the left wing, and they are all things that the BNP have supported, and that the Conservatives (obviously) do not support.
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Consider German conservatives 1932 or so. Right wing, even racist in quite a strong sense. Aristocratic and contemptuous of workers and their organisations. But supporters of parliamentarian parties, or at least willing to tolerate parliamentary systems of government.

Who, by contrast, has this populist flavour that you have noted? The SA. Nonetheless the way in which the SA departed from left wing normality - by being murderous racist boot boys, outweighs any other considerations and defines that organisation as extreme rightist.

Your other points are indeed true. There are racist trade unionists; I have often met such in my days as a trade union activist; but the fact that trade unions and their collective bodies in general are very much opposed to racism indicates the preponderant sentiment in that movement.
 
baron said:
Not that it matters. Labour are finished now, these are just the spasms of a dying movement.
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I think that is most improbable. The movement will continue, and if the party has to reform itself to resume its position as political expression of that movement, it will. It has nearly wrecked itself as a party by becoming not the expression of a movement, but simply a vehicle for securing political power for a leadership clique; but it may well be able to recover its reason for being. Or if not, another party will be formed and will fulfil that function.

In Scotland, the SNP seems to be replacing the LP in that role. But even South of the Border, where there is a political or social movement, there will be some party or other which will represent it.

The present government is very markedly right wing. There is space on the left. It will be occupied by Labour or some other party.
 
Craig B said:
I think that is most improbable. The movement will continue, and if the party has to reform itself to resume its position as political expression of that movement, it will. It has nearly wrecked itself as a party by becoming not the expression of a movement, but simply a vehicle for securing political power for a leadership clique; but it may well be able to recover its reason for being. Or if not, another party will be formed and will fulfil that function.

In Scotland, the SNP seems to be replacing the LP in that role. But even South of the Border, where there is a political or social movement, there will be some party or other which will represent it.

The present government is very markedly right wing. There is space on the left. It will be occupied by Labour or some other party.
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I should have said finished as a political force, i.e. a potential contender for government. I'm sure they'll muddle on in some form or another, scrapping with each other and biting at the heels of government, and maybe there'll even be some offshoot party, but I think the next generation is pretty much sewn up in terms of who's in charge of this country.
 
baron said:
I should have said finished as a political force, i.e. a potential contender for government. I'm sure they'll muddle on in some form or another, scrapping with each other and biting at the heels of government, and maybe there'll even be some offshoot party, but I think the next generation is pretty much sewn up in terms of who's in charge of this country.
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Perhaps. As always, it depends what they do in government. If they go too far in the interests of one particular social group, opposition will quickly form, and take shape as an electoral force.
 
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baron said:
Not that it matters. Labour are finished now, these are just the spasms of a dying movement.
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You might be right, but good comes from change, not from standing around waving one's dick* about how bad Jeremy Corbyn is.

Whether Corbyn succeeds is the entire point. New Labourites have had their go and they're crying now someone else is getting a turn.

If it turns out that Corbyn is The Death of Labour, then it deserved to die. If there's any guts and life left in them, they will evolve into something else and once again become relevant, and in future, the government.

Given the flocking to Corbyn of young people and the continuing astounding success of Bernie Sanders, it just might be a sea-change in thinking between the generations. That would be a bloody good thing, in my opinion.

It might not, too, but it's better than going back to plan A as in my first sentence.



*I'm not accusing you of that, by the way, but it describes what I see from many people.
 
The Atheist said:
You might be right, but good comes from change, not from standing around waving one's dick* about how bad Jeremy Corbyn is.

Whether Corbyn succeeds is the entire point. New Labourites have had their go and they're crying now someone else is getting a turn.


If it turns out that Corbyn is The Death of Labour, then it deserved to die. If there's any guts and life left in them, they will evolve into something else and once again become relevant, and in future, the government.

Given the flocking to Corbyn of young people and the continuing astounding success of Bernie Sanders, it just might be a sea-change in thinking between the generations. That would be a bloody good thing, in my opinion.

It might not, too, but it's better than going back to plan A as in my first sentence.



*I'm not accusing you of that, by the way, but it describes what I see from many people.
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What about the people waving their dicks around about how good Jeremy Corbyn is?
 
I haven't seen anyone doing that so far.

Given he has no track record of leading a political party, saying how good he is would be a little premature, but we can hope he does a good job.
 
The Atheist said:
Substance-free criticism for starters.

Accordingly, substance-free support for Corbyn will qualify.
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If dick wagging consists of substance-free "criticism", surely opposition to Corbyn, and not support for him, should qualify.
 
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