General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[dudalb]

Nonsense. Holocaust Denial was started as an attempt to whitewash Nazi Germany. That is it's main purpose. It is no coincidence that most of the founders of the movement were active in extreme right wing politics.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I've mentioned this before, but it's my belief that holocaust denial is based mostly off of shear disbelief.

I would like to put forward that this has been exacerbated by holocaust deniers that seek donations for profit. They will list the extreme versions of anecdotes, like baby bonfires and human soap factories, as though these anecdotes are the only "evidence" of the holocaust. The deniers then put on "a show" how easy it is to discredit these anecdotes, on their websites, and then seek donations to fight the holocaust as a whole.

However, these are mere con artists and if they weren't seeking donations to disprove the holocaust, they would be seeking donations to disprove 9/11, the JFK assassination and so on.

In taxation and other financial schemes, its is the same "players" who keep popping up running the different schemes. With holocaust denial "donation raisers" they can expand their feeding pool, using their original holocaust denial scheme, simply by adding off topic lines that 9/11 is also a government conspiracy and JFK was killed by aliens.

My gut feeling is that the "foot soldiers" of holocaust denial, who are most vocal on forums, generally are self justifying to themselves that their earlier donations had merit (behavioural equity theory) or they are simply playing the "I have special knowledge, and you don't, despite you being more educated" game. (Trolling)

Weird Hindu Holocaust Denial
Some things on the planet are simply insane. A very made French woman who became a Hindu, decided that Hitler was Shiva and promoted Holocaust denial in her Hindu books. We recently had a mad person on the Skeptic Society quoting Hindu religious sayings, who suddenly leaped into a claim that Adolf Hitler was a "good bloke" and the holocaust never happened. This same person was unsure if Germany was in Europe, or at war with Europe.

Savitri Devi aka Maximiani Portas (1905 –1982)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savitri_Devi

The Last Man Against Time by Savitri Devi (Bizarre pro Nazi Hindu essay)
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/litsun_4.htm

 

[rommelrommel]

Not so simple after all, I think. I've mentioned this before, but it's my belief that holocaust denial is based mostly off of shear disbelief. Sure, the history of mankind is full wars, conquests, and crusades, but what the Nazis did was unthinkable to such a degree as to be unbelievable. And I'm not just talking about just the number of people they killed but the way in which they did it. If it started back up again, today, would you believe it?

Also while it's also hard someone would make up such horrendous crimes, it's not exactly unheard of. Once again, in that vein, I have to point out that the Jews have made up crimes almost as bad (see Exodus for example) and maintained that as true since antiquity in face of evidence saying it never happened. So while I know the holocaust happened I also wouldn't put it past the Jews to make it up completely or greatly exaggerate it.

No, I think skeptichaggis had it just right. Some casual uneducated deniers may truly find it hard to believe or conceive of I guess, but any reasonably intelligent person who spends a bit of time on the subject would be convinced that it did happen, and that the scale is correct.

I find it laughable that you use a biblical story that few take literally anymore to libel "the Jews" as liars.

 

[uke2se]

Not so simple after all, I think. I've mentioned this before, but it's my belief that holocaust denial is based mostly off of shear disbelief. Sure, the history of mankind is full wars, conquests, and crusades, but what the Nazis did was unthinkable to such a degree as to be unbelievable. And I'm not just talking about just the number of people they killed but the way in which they did it. If it started back up again, today, would you believe it?

Also while it's also hard someone would make up such horrendous crimes, it's not exactly unheard of. Once again, in that vein, I have to point out that the Jews have made up crimes almost as bad (see Exodus for example) and maintained that as true since antiquity in face of evidence saying it never happened. So while I know the holocaust happened I also wouldn't put it past the Jews to make it up completely or greatly exaggerate it.

That the holocaust is unthinkable is what makes holocaust denial resonate with a lot of people, but it is based squarely on antisemitism. You should read "Denying the Holocaust" by Deborah Lipstadt. She goes through the history of holocaust denial and how it's rooted in antisemitism.

 

[trustbutverify]

That was enough to give me cause to pause. This is the same people that have been lying since antiquity about their history, even in face of facts that contradict those lies.

The "Jews", including (supposedly) your mother, have been lyiers since antiquity, so how can they be trusted about the Holocaust? Is that your "question"?

 

[Mudcat]

Nonsense. Holocaust Denial was started as an attempt to whitewash Nazi Germany. That is it's main purpose. It is no coincidence that most of the founders of the movement were active in extreme right wing politics.

So what you're saying is that it's not possible for someone to come to the belief that the holocaust didn't happen or was greatly exaggerated if they're not antisemitic?

Nonsense indeed.

I find it laughable that you use a biblical story that few take literally anymore to libel "the Jews" as liars.

You mean the same bible story that untold numbers of people took as the literal truth for thousands of years and the Jews defended as true even when it was beginning to be exposed as untrue and some continue to do so even face of everything that says that it is untrue?

Yes, how laughable for me to call a group of people known to lie as liars. What was I thinking?

 

[ddt]

I put that forth and the response was that they had kept meticulous records of the executions.

Me: Yeah, but how do we know that the Nazis were completely honest about how many they had killed and weren't exaggerating in any way to demoralize the Jews at the time?

Mom: It was because the Jews were the ones that were force to keep those records.

I never heard of the Jews themselves forced to keep records. They were, of course, forced to register themselves as Jews in the civic registries.

In addition to what others already said, there are also the transport lists from the other end: the transit camps. You can find (and download) the complete lists of the 19 transports from Dutch transit camp Westerbork to Sobibor at the National Archives. And at the Digital Monument for the Jewish Community in the Netherlands, you can find details on all of the ca. 105,000 Jews with Dutch residency who were massacred in the Holocaust. The information there is all based on the civic registries and transport lists and the like, and contains very few gaps.

Of course, there is no such wealth of paperwork available in all countries where the Holocaust took place, especially not in Russia where the main way was mass shootings by the Einsatzgruppen. There are no meticulous name-by-name lists of those.

 

[Pacal]

So what you're saying is that it's not possible for someone to come to the belief that the holocaust didn't happen or was greatly exaggerated if they're not antisemitic?

Nonsense indeed.

Sadly the vast majority of Holocaust deniers are in fact anti-Semitic loons who came to their belief in the Holocaust hoax out of anti-Semitic animus. The number who are not is miniscule.

You mean the same bible story that untold numbers of people took as the literal truth for thousands of years and the Jews defended as true even when it was beginning to be exposed as untrue and some continue to do so even face of everything that says that it is untrue?

Yes, how laughable for me to call a group of people known to lie as liars. What was I thinking?

You do of course realize that for thousands of years the Exodus story was accepted as real history by Christians, Muslims and Jews. So the people uttering it weren't lying. They genuinely thought it happened.

This once again is the familiar and dull trope of the Jews as liars. I wonder is it genetic? (snark) It is a dull old bromide. (Why do you use the phrase "the Jews"?) You do realize that some actual scholars do in fact think the Exodus in some form actually happened.

As for people repeating stories that turn out to be untrue. You do realize that historical folklore can be full of error and nonsense. Let us look at a few examples.

The Persian book called The Book of Kings. Accepted has history by Persians and it is largely complete fiction. The Iliad and Odyssey accepted has describing real events for more than 2000 years and again both are almost entirely fiction. Much of Herodotus is likewise.

I could also mention the fictional early history of Japan and China, again accepted as describing real events for centuries.

So there is absolutely nothing unusual for a folkloric event to be accepted as actually happening for centuries and then it turning out to be dubious.

And actually what are you thinking? Repeating the crap about "the Jews" being "liars", when nonsensical folkloric early history is in fact a rather common feature of cultures and the early histories of religion. (Christianity and Islam anyone.)

 

[Nick Terry]

So what you're saying is that it's not possible for someone to come to the belief that the holocaust didn't happen or was greatly exaggerated if they're not antisemitic?

Nonsense indeed.

From long experience, about 5% of Holocaust deniers glom onto the idea without having prior antisemitic or pro-Nazi biases. In essence, the conspiracy theory looney tunes crowd.

You mean the same bible story that untold numbers of people took as the literal truth for thousands of years and the Jews defended as true even when it was beginning to be exposed as untrue and some continue to do so even face of everything that says that it is untrue?

Yes, how laughable for me to call a group of people known to lie as liars. What was I thinking?

I honestly cannot believe I am reading such garbage. You're generalising from ancient religious texts written, it is believed, in the 6th to 5th Century BCE to the possibility of a people "lying" about current events in the 1940s.

WTF? By your apparent reasoning, nothing said by any Indian, European or indeed anyone with any cultural connection to an ancient or medieval religion, founding myth or invented tradition can be taken seriously since "they" might be "lying". This is racism pure and simple, however inadvertently you stumbled into it.

 

[Nick Terry]

How do we know that the common estimate of executed Jews is completely accurate?

The same way we know any other common estimate of a historical statistic is accurate, by
a) reading the literature
b) checking the sources

Since those sources come from Nazi, Jewish and non-Nazi/non-Jewish provenances, and can be cross-checked against each other, there is a very high degree of confidence in the figures for each country and each action. This confidence is increased because the figures can be broken down by region and locality and then added up again, providing several methods to cross-check them.

Estimates generally range between 5 and 6 million. The lower end of the estimate range is more realistic.

By comparison to many other statistics for atrocities or war death tolls, this figure is very robust. The margin of error for historical mortality statistics is terrifyingly large.

 

[Mudcat]

The "Jews", including (supposedly) your mother, have been lyiers since antiquity, so how can they be trusted about the Holocaust? Is that your "question"?

No, my question is "How was this specific information verified?"

And don't forget that my first thought was that the Nazis, not the Jews, were lying or greatly over exaggerating about the numbers. It seems like a reasonable doubt to have about the whole affair.

I just figured that attempts to verify that they really executed that many were made.

 

[Loss Leader]

This thread has been removed from moderated status. Please be aware that the Membership Agreement is still in full force and effect. All posts should remain within the confines of the Agreement. We thank you for keeping the debate at its current exemplary level.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Loss Leader

 

[trustbutverify]

So what you're saying is that it's not possible for someone to come to the belief that the holocaust didn't happen or was greatly exaggerated if they're not antisemitic?

Considering the documented support concerning the holocaust, it is virtually unheard of for a non-racist to consider the holocaust to be a hoax. I have never encountered, nor heard of, a holohoax type who wasn't a racist scumbag. I doubt any exist.

You mean the same bible story that untold numbers of people took as the literal truth for thousands of years and the Jews defended as true even when it was beginning to be exposed as untrue and some continue to do so even face of everything that says that it is untrue?

Jews are no more or less dishonest than any other ethnic /religious group. Some people disagree with this statement because they have racist agendas.

 

[trustbutverify]

No, my question is "How was this specific information verified?"

And don't forget that my first thought was that the Nazis, not the Jews, were lying or greatly over exaggerating about the numbers. It seems like a reasonable doubt to have about the whole affair.

I just figured that attempts to verify that they really executed that many were made.

Every serious attempt to undermine the historical accuracy of the Shoah has been academically demolished. I'm not aware of any such attempt that wasn't the result of racist motivation.

 

[Nessie]

I usually post at RODOH. It is certainly my experience that the denier/revisionists there are either rabidly and openly anti-Semitic, they deny being anti-Semitic but their words say they are lying or they are general CTers who also think 9/11 was a government plot and HIV/AIDS is a conspiracy.

On the other side, of those who argue on forums that the Holocaust did happen come over as being rabidly pro-Jew/Zionism/Israel or anti all CTs as a matter of principle.

 

[trustbutverify]

I usually post at RODOH. It is certainly my experience that the denier/revisionists there are either rabidly and openly anti-Semitic, they deny being anti-Semitic but their words say they are lying or they are general CTers who also think 9/11 was a government plot and HIV/AIDS is a conspiracy.

On the other side, of those who argue on forums that the Holocaust did happen come over as being rabidly pro-Jew/Zionism/Israel or anti all CTs as a matter of principle.

I've encountered many non-holocaust deniers who hated both Zionism and Israel, and were not particularly "pro-Jew". I've never encountered a holocaust denier/"revisionist" who wasn't a racist.

 

[Mudcat]

Jews are no more or less dishonest than any other ethnic /religious group.

Please recall that my first thought was that the Nazis had lied about or over exaggerated the number they had killed. Not that five million executed is any more acceptable than six, but still... Where would the Nazis fit on your honesty scale?

And yeah, I would consider Jews to be less honest than most because they created this whole story where they accused a people of committing crimes, for which they were innocent of, that were in some ways worse than the real crimes that the Nazis committed. And they promoted it as truth since ancient times and continue to defend it as truth even now in face of mounting evidence that it's not truth.

Where does that fit on your honesty scale?

 

[trustbutverify]

Where does that fit on your honesty scale?

Exactly the same as every other group of people concerning their religious myths. Jews, as a group, are no less or more dishonest than any other ethnic group.

Now, as far as where you fit in on my racism scale...

 

[Mudcat]

Now, as far as where you fit in on my racism scale...

Probably nowhere as Jews aren't a race any more than Christians, Mormons, Scientologists, Catholics, Muslims, or any other religious organization is/are in my view.

Now, about them Nazis. Where would they be on the honesty scale? Is it conceivable to you that they might over exaggerate or outright lie about how many they actually killed? If not, why not?

 

[trustbutverify]

Probably nowhere as Jews aren't a race any more than Christians, Mormons, Scientologists, Catholics, Muslims, or any other religious organization is/are in my view.

Guess again. Racism also applies to ethnic groups, so you fully qualify.