General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[ryu238]

Sobibor gas chambers

Came across this:

Previously, it had been claimed that there were three, four, or six “gas chambers” at Sobibór—but the September 2014 ‘discovery’ announced that there were now ‘apparently’ eight ‘gas chambers’—this based purely on the number of rooms unearthed in the foundations.

“Photographs of the 2014 excavation results shows an irregular-shaped building with at least seven differing sized rooms,” Winter wrote.

This layout completely contradicts all previous narratives of the Sobibór ‘gas chambers’, which all claimed that the execution chambers worked with a two-door system and floor extensions on either side of the building. These ‘gas chambers’ were, according to the “old” narrative, all the same size (four meters square). On the one side of the ‘gas chambers,’ the Holocaust Storytellers claim, there was a ramp type affair used by the supposed victims to enter the “gas chambers” and, on the other side were supposedly larger doors through which the bodies were removed. As can be seen, the unearthed foundations bear no resemblance to this narrative,” Winter continied.
http://newobserveronline.com/sobibo...adicts-all-earlier-chamber-claims-researcher/

Now I know only four of those rooms are the gas chambers

Freshly uncovered foundations and remains of the walls can be seen in a clearing, the suspected remnants of four gas chambers. Each measures five by seven meters (16 feet by 23 feet) and served as death cells for 70 to 100 people at a time.
http://m.spiegel.de/international/z...r4DgCQ&usg=AFQjCNEsDeZbTsRyfjIYDlACWM61tGRaPw

So do things fit?

 

[Pacal]

Originally Posted by cultsmasher
Captain Swoop,
I don't know what the plan you speak of is or the reality of it. But the fact is that after WW II, under the "care" of Esienhower, an estimate 1.5 million Greman ex-soldiers died while in the custody of American forces. For Jews in internment camps, war do doubt caused many deaths from disease and starvation. But after the war, American troops weren't lacking for anything. So what was their excuse.

You must make a confusion with the German soldiers who died while in custody of the USSR.

And this figure is still much less than the 3.5 millions of Russian soldiers who died while under the custody of the Wehrmacht. As a matter of fact, 65% of the Soviet PoWs died while Under German custody, 35% of the German PoWs died while under Soviet custody and approximately 1.5% of the German PoW died while under US or British custody.

This 1.5% is clearly not high enough to reach 1.5 millions deaths. You could at least make the effort to get your figures right on that point.

What Cultsmasher is referring to is the work of James Bacque called Other Losses. The book alleges that Eisenhower presided over a regime of terror in the aftermath of World War Ii and systematically starved to death more than a million German POWs. The book has been relentlessly savaged and revealed to be shoddy in terms of scholarship. The book has also been greeted with delight to this day by Neo-Nazis and other Hitler huggers.

 

[ryu238]

Ok is this accurate in any way about the holocaust?

On May 4, 1992, court expert Jagschitz discussed the “considerably large ventilators” (“I found
that clearly in Moscow”, page 19 of court transcript; “these enormous ventilators that vent air out of
the mortuaries”, “rather there were considerably large ventilators at least in crematoria II and III”,
page 34 of court transcript).
These ventilators had engines of 3.5 hp. Given a necessary vacuum capacity of 6 inches watercolumn
and considering the length of the conduit cross-sections, conduit course (numerous rightangle
diversions), interior surfaces of the conduit (undressed brick, wood) and the nature of the vent
openings (coarsely punched metal), this suffices for a maximum of ten exchanges of air in the ‘gas
chamber’ per hour.
Considering the ventilation time of 30 minutes, this means that the concentration of hydrogen
cyanide may then have dropped to a minimum of approximately 1/100 of the initial concentration.
But since the method of alleged introduction of the Zyklon B from above means that the evaporation
of hydrogen cyanide cannot be simply ‘shut off’, as it were (that works only in the American
gas chambers using hydrogen cyanide generators), the evaporation would continue and at a greater
rate than before, since the less than atmospheric pressure created in ventilation (lowering of the
boiling-point) promotes evaporation. This means that until almost right before the end of the evaporation
process – which can take from a few to many hours, depending on the ambient temperature
and humidity – the ventilators with their capacity of only 3.5 hp would have had to perform a Sisyphean
task without succeeding in lowering the concentration below the lethal level.
The question how the ventilators really worked, given a chamber crowded to bursting with dead
bodies and given the air intake and exhaust configuration, is a matter that still needs to be settled by
ventilation experts, for the used air was exhausted from below even though heating and increased
moisture content caused by the presence of the victims would have made it lighter than the incoming
fresh air. Another problem is the fact that the air intake and exhaust openings are located too
close to each other – 6.5 feet apart on the same wall, vs. a distance of 24.5 feet from the opposite
wall of the room blocked by the dead bodies. This means that there would be a ‘short-circuit’ of air
in the chamber.

Given an initial hydrogen cyanide concentration of 5 g/m3, complete ‘shut-off’ of gas production,
five air exchanges per half hour and ideal ventilation conditions, the concentration of hydrogen cyanide
remaining will be only 50 mg/m3 after half an hour and it will be safe to enter the gas chamber
without a gas mask. But since Zyklon B continues to outgas for hours, entering the gas chamber after
30 minutes and without protective clothing as claimed would be fatal. Even gas masks equipped
with a special filter J, guaranteeing safety for 30 minutes, would be inadequate under such conditions.
Furthermore, the location of the air intake and exhaust vents on the roof ridge, approximately
15 feet apart,27 begs the question as to what would happen whenever there was a breeze from the
exhaust vent towards the intake opening. Again, it would be a matter of a ‘short-circuit of air’. No
self-respecting German engineer worth his epaulets would design a ‘gas chamber’ this poorly.
The ventilator for the dissecting room and the rooms for washing up and for laying out the corpses
– all of them situated above-ground and with windows – had a capacity of 1 hp, while that for the
much larger mortuary 1 (‘gas chamber’) had 3.5 hp. As Carlo Mattogno has shown, the performance
of all air extractions systems of the different rooms in crematoria II and III in Birkenau (oven
room, mortuary 1, mortuary 2, dissecting and washing room) was considered to be nearly the same:
11,5 to 16,6 air exchanges per hour.28 And Mattogno provided evidence that this was the standard
power required for morgues according to contemporary German expert literature,29 whereas air extraction
systems for hydrogen cyanide gas chambers (delousing chambers) required at least 72 air
exchanges per hour.30 Thus, mortuary 1 was certainly not suited to exchange the given volume of
air, enriched with 5 g/m3 (according to Pressac,31 it was even 12 g/m3!) and within the space of time
(30 minutes) claimed in Holocaust literature (eyewitness reports), nor was it suited to exchange the
given volume of air a sufficient number of times to allow the ‘gas chamber’ to be entered after this
ventilation process without powerful gas masks and protective clothing. The bottom line of all this
is that the ventilation facilities of crematoria II and III were designed strictly for purposes of normal
ventilation, and not for the removal of highly toxic quantities of gas in a short period of time (20 to
30 minutes).32


26 R. Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, Holmes & Meier, New York 1985, Table 75.
27 J.-C. Pressac, op. cit. (note 8), p. 291.
28 C. Mattogno, “Auschwitz: Das Ende einer Legende”, in H. Verbeke (ed.), Auschwitz: Nackte Fakten, Vrij Historisch
Onderzoek, Berchem 1995, pp. 133ff. (online: vho.org/D/anf/Mattogno.html); Engl: Auschwitz: The End of a Legend,
Granata Publishing, Palos Verdes, CA, 1994 (online: vho.org/GB/Books/anf/Mattogno.html).
29 Ibid., p. 140; cf. W. Heepke, Die Leichenverbrennungsanstalten (die Krematorien), Verlag von Carl Marhold, Halle
a.S. 1905, p. 104.
30 C. Mattogno, op. cit. (note 28), p. 141f.; cf. G. Peters, E. Wüstinger, “Sach-Entlausung in Blausäure-Kammern”,
Zeitschrift für hygienische Zoologie und Schädlingsbekämpfung 10/11 (1940), p. 195; F. Puntigam, H. Breymesser,
E. Bernfus, Blausäuregaskammern zur Fleckfieberabwehr, Sonderveröffentlichung des Reichsarbeitsblattes, Berlin
1943, p. 50.
31 J.-C. Pressac, ibid., pp. 16 and 18.
32 This is also the opinion of J.-C. Pressac, ibid., pp. 224 and 289."

 

[marplots]

Ok is this accurate in any way about the holocaust?

I'm no expert on the holocaust, but "mortuary" is spelled correctly, if that helps.

 

[Joey McGee]

No.

 

[Pacal]

Ok is this accurate in any way about the holocaust?

Quote:

On May 4, 1992, court expert Jagschitz discussed the “considerably large ventilators” (“I found
that clearly in Moscow”, page 19 of court transcript; “these enormous ventilators that vent air out of
the mortuaries”, “rather there were considerably large ventilators at least in crematoria II and III”,
page 34 of court transcript).
These ventilators had engines of 3.5 hp. Given a necessary vacuum capacity of 6 inches watercolumn
and considering the length of the conduit cross-sections, conduit course (numerous rightangle
diversions), interior surfaces of the conduit (undressed brick, wood) and the nature of the vent
openings (coarsely punched metal), this suffices for a maximum of ten exchanges of air in the ‘gas
chamber’ per hour.
Considering the ventilation time of 30 minutes, this means that the concentration of hydrogen
cyanide may then have dropped to a minimum of approximately 1/100 of the initial concentration.
But since the method of alleged introduction of the Zyklon B from above means that the evaporation
of hydrogen cyanide cannot be simply ‘shut off’, as it were (that works only in the American
gas chambers using hydrogen cyanide generators), the evaporation would continue and at a greater
rate than before, since the less than atmospheric pressure created in ventilation (lowering of the
boiling-point) promotes evaporation. This means that until almost right before the end of the evaporation
process – which can take from a few to many hours, depending on the ambient temperature
and humidity – the ventilators with their capacity of only 3.5 hp would have had to perform a Sisyphean
task without succeeding in lowering the concentration below the lethal level.
The question how the ventilators really worked, given a chamber crowded to bursting with dead
bodies and given the air intake and exhaust configuration, is a matter that still needs to be settled by
ventilation experts, for the used air was exhausted from below even though heating and increased
moisture content caused by the presence of the victims would have made it lighter than the incoming
fresh air. Another problem is the fact that the air intake and exhaust openings are located too
close to each other – 6.5 feet apart on the same wall, vs. a distance of 24.5 feet from the opposite
wall of the room blocked by the dead bodies. This means that there would be a ‘short-circuit’ of air
in the chamber.

Given an initial hydrogen cyanide concentration of 5 g/m3, complete ‘shut-off’ of gas production,
five air exchanges per half hour and ideal ventilation conditions, the concentration of hydrogen cyanide
remaining will be only 50 mg/m3 after half an hour and it will be safe to enter the gas chamber
without a gas mask. But since Zyklon B continues to outgas for hours, entering the gas chamber after
30 minutes and without protective clothing as claimed would be fatal. Even gas masks equipped
with a special filter J, guaranteeing safety for 30 minutes, would be inadequate under such conditions.
Furthermore, the location of the air intake and exhaust vents on the roof ridge, approximately
15 feet apart,27 begs the question as to what would happen whenever there was a breeze from the
exhaust vent towards the intake opening. Again, it would be a matter of a ‘short-circuit of air’. No
self-respecting German engineer worth his epaulets would design a ‘gas chamber’ this poorly.
The ventilator for the dissecting room and the rooms for washing up and for laying out the corpses
– all of them situated above-ground and with windows – had a capacity of 1 hp, while that for the
much larger mortuary 1 (‘gas chamber’) had 3.5 hp. As Carlo Mattogno has shown, the performance
of all air extractions systems of the different rooms in crematoria II and III in Birkenau (oven
room, mortuary 1, mortuary 2, dissecting and washing room) was considered to be nearly the same:
11,5 to 16,6 air exchanges per hour.28 And Mattogno provided evidence that this was the standard
power required for morgues according to contemporary German expert literature,29 whereas air extraction
systems for hydrogen cyanide gas chambers (delousing chambers) required at least 72 air
exchanges per hour.30 Thus, mortuary 1 was certainly not suited to exchange the given volume of
air, enriched with 5 g/m3 (according to Pressac,31 it was even 12 g/m3!) and within the space of time
(30 minutes) claimed in Holocaust literature (eyewitness reports), nor was it suited to exchange the
given volume of air a sufficient number of times to allow the ‘gas chamber’ to be entered after this
ventilation process without powerful gas masks and protective clothing. The bottom line of all this
is that the ventilation facilities of crematoria II and III were designed strictly for purposes of normal
ventilation, and not for the removal of highly toxic quantities of gas in a short period of time (20 to
30 minutes).32


26 R. Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, Holmes & Meier, New York 1985, Table 75.
27 J.-C. Pressac, op. cit. (note 8), p. 291.
28 C. Mattogno, “Auschwitz: Das Ende einer Legende”, in H. Verbeke (ed.), Auschwitz: Nackte Fakten, Vrij Historisch
Onderzoek, Berchem 1995, pp. 133ff. (online: vho.org/D/anf/Mattogno.html); Engl: Auschwitz: The End of a Legend,
Granata Publishing, Palos Verdes, CA, 1994 (online: vho.org/GB/Books/anf/Mattogno.html).
29 Ibid., p. 140; cf. W. Heepke, Die Leichenverbrennungsanstalten (die Krematorien), Verlag von Carl Marhold, Halle
a.S. 1905, p. 104.
30 C. Mattogno, op. cit. (note 28), p. 141f.; cf. G. Peters, E. Wüstinger, “Sach-Entlausung in Blausäure-Kammern”,
Zeitschrift für hygienische Zoologie und Schädlingsbekämpfung 10/11 (1940), p. 195; F. Puntigam, H. Breymesser,
E. Bernfus, Blausäuregaskammern zur Fleckfieberabwehr, Sonderveröffentlichung des Reichsarbeitsblattes, Berlin
1943, p. 50.
31 J.-C. Pressac, ibid., pp. 16 and 18.
32 This is also the opinion of J.-C. Pressac, ibid., pp. 224 and 289."

This quote is typical denier bull. Like virtually all such denier bull it's intention is impress the casual reader with a flood of "details" and phony "academic" decoration.

The stuff about the chambers being lethal to come into after 30 minutes after a gassing is crap along with the fact the writers very carefully ignore that the concentration of gas required to kill people is rather low. It is interesting that the quote footnotes Pressac who in great tedium and detail refutes virtually all of this crap. Since the author is distorting Pressac who concluded that the chambers did in fact function has mass homicidal gas chambers has claimed by witnesses we can simply dismiss this person's crap has utter nonsense and lies.

Pressac's work can be found at history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/

The thing is a Holocaust denier must be assumed to be a liar until proven otherwise.

 

[ryu238]

This quote is typical denier bull. Like virtually all such denier bull it's intention is impress the casual reader with a flood of "details" and phony "academic" decoration.

The stuff about the chambers being lethal to come into after 30 minutes after a gassing is crap along with the fact the writers very carefully ignore that the concentration of gas required to kill people is rather low. It is interesting that the quote footnotes Pressac who in great tedium and detail refutes virtually all of this crap. Since the author is distorting Pressac who concluded that the chambers did in fact function has mass homicidal gas chambers has claimed by witnesses we can simply dismiss this person's crap has utter nonsense and lies.

Pressac's work can be found at history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/

The thing is a Holocaust denier must be assumed to be a liar until proven otherwise.

I just realized that he also forgot that the guards were wearing gas masks after the killing.

 

[bruto]

Maybe it depends on the generation you're in, but although I was born after the holocaust itself, I knew many people who were not, including a few who went through it. The documentation for the horror is enormous, the eyewitness accounts horrendous, the carnage undeniable, the literature abundant, the records kept by the Nazis themselves incredible, the losses unforgiveable, and the complicity of the oblivious masses at best regrettable. Why on earth should any sane person spend more than the time it takes to say "shut the **** up," when some apologetic ratbag thinks he's getting anywhere by waxing pedantic about the fans in the crematoria.

 

[spooky24]

The holocaust was probably the best documented crime in history, and most of the documentation was done by the perpetrators.

No-practically the most unknown. In reading some of the shorthand logs of the supreme command you find things like the 800,000 Polish Jews that were shipped to the Black sea are counted in the '6 million Jews killed'

That is part of the problem.

All the numbers are simply guesses-as the records for all the camps were in the resettlement files that went up in flames April 22 1945 in the basement of the Propaganda Ministry first an 800 plane baronage by the British that dropped over 2000 bombs-then incinerated with a new form of bomb containing gelled gasoline the next morning by the Americans.

Nothing is known about the Judenfri in the Polish center region of Lubin. All that is known comes from the integrations of the men in the Police reserve units that were there.

It is impossible to know the validity of what is left over-some of it is fake some of it is not.

Himmler’s chief statistician, Dr. Richard
Korherr, had analysed the fate of the world’s estimated 17,ooo,ooo Jews:
Europe’s ,, had dwindled by  percent since , owing to
emigration, the high natural mortality rate, and the enforced ‘evacuation’
that had begun with the prohibition of emigration late in . To Himmler’s
annoyance, on reading the sixteen-page document on March  he found
that it stated expressis verbis on page  that of the ,, Jews deported
from the eastern provinces ,, had been subjected to ‘special treatment’
at camps in the Generalgouvernement

Basically this says 1,467,000 were listed as resettled-what ever that means.

This long work by David Irving was totally by his book 'The destruction of Dresden'

This was appalling to the world as the American high command had no answer to the burning to death of 40,000 old men, Women and children in a city that had capitulated.

One of the most dreadful war crimes ever committed.

 

[ryu238]

This quote is typical denier bull. Like virtually all such denier bull it's intention is impress the casual reader with a flood of "details" and phony "academic" decoration.

The stuff about the chambers being lethal to come into after 30 minutes after a gassing is crap along with the fact the writers very carefully ignore that the concentration of gas required to kill people is rather low. It is interesting that the quote footnotes Pressac who in great tedium and detail refutes virtually all of this crap. Since the author is distorting Pressac who concluded that the chambers did in fact function has mass homicidal gas chambers has claimed by witnesses we can simply dismiss this person's crap has utter nonsense and lies.

Pressac's work can be found at history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/

The thing is a Holocaust denier must be assumed to be a liar until proven otherwise.

Can someone show that Ruldof's exchange calculations are off?

 

[Pacal]

Can someone show that Ruldof's exchange calculations are off?

Why bother? Ruldof is mouthing denier bull that has been repeated over and over again for decades there is no point in wasting time refuting crap like Ruldof's because once again deniers must be assumed to be liars until proven otherwise. If you refutation of this bilge start with Pressac.

 

[Parsman]

If you are relying on anything David Irving is using, it must be taken with a huge pinch of salt. At the libel trail against Deborah Lipstadt it was shown that he had used a source who had no first hand knowledge of casualties in the bombing raid, and had no access to any documentation concerning casualty figures. This source also mis-identified a witness as the Deputy Chief Medical Examiner of the city, a post which he never held. It also became apparent that Irving had misused his research to paint Nazi Germany in the best light and the Allies in the worst light in most of his published works. Hardly a reliable source on the holocaust.

 

[KDLarsen]

Danish TV has started airing a recent French documentary series called 'Annihilation - The Destruction of Europe's Jews'. Interestingly, a lot of the segments with various experts on Nazi Germany and the Holocaust (Kershaw, Cesarani, Longerich, Klarsfeld, Porat, etc. etc.) are available on YouTube on the series' own channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOqXlXUWjSAdmvAmTEGa4Dg/videos

I doubt it contain much new information to regular thread readers, but I figured some might find it interesting.

 

[Mudcat]

Hello everyone.

Before I get started let me just state that I know that the Holocaust did, in fact, happen. There is too much evidence supporting it for it not have and, sadly, it's not like it's an isolated spot of history where one group of people felt justified in whipping out another for whatever reason.

Let me also beg forgiveness not using the search functions to get the answer settled which may or may not have been asked and answered before. In my defense, there already has been two iterations of this thread encompassing thousands of posts and several years so such a search would produce too many useless results before I could get the one I need so here is this question:

How do we know that the common estimate of executed Jews is completely accurate?

The reason why I ask is because my mom, a Jew, was talking about the Holocaust museum in Israel and that brought up something that I've been wondering for years now but had not put into words until recently. Namely, how was it verified that the Nazi party executed more than seven million people?

I put that forth and the response was that they had kept meticulous records of the executions.

Me: Yeah, but how do we know that the Nazis were completely honest about how many they had killed and weren't exaggerating in any way to demoralize the Jews at the time?

Mom: It was because the Jews were the ones that were force to keep those records.

That was enough to give me cause to pause. This is the same people that have been lying since antiquity about their history, even in face of facts that contradict those lies.

Am I holding the past to them too much and the claims are true? Or am I right in doubting how many died and asking how it was verified?

 

[skeptichaggis]

My uncle was part of the forces that liberated one of those camps. He still can't talk about it without getting teary. I know he's not a liar.

My grandad was one of the liberators of Belsen. He had to clothes peg a sock on his nose to get to sleep. Holocaust denial is possibly the worse,most stupid sort of pseudohistory out there. Its also completely racist.

 

[skeptichaggis]

The point is that the video shows Ernst Zündel and other deniers being rigorously persecuted. Pro Holocausters do not speak up against that unusual practice, which means: they support it. In this case a discussion is not a discussion, science is not science. Thesis without anti thesis cannot lead to sythesis, is unscientific, if not unethical. Everybody being involved in such a pseudo discussion behaves this unethical way - deniers as well as all others. First persecution has to be removed everywhere. Then discussions can be called discussions.

Pro holocauster? That's like being pro oxygen, or pro water drinking. That's simple reality. Holocaust deniers are not persecuted. They are just treated like the stupid lying racist bigots they are.
Read french Maclean's the cruel hunters about the dirlewanger brigade,or "ordinary men" about a battalion of older policemen on the eastern front. The SS,Luftwaffe, Wehrmacht was all involved in the murder of at least 6,000,000 Jews.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

How do we know that the common estimate of executed Jews is completely accurate?

I do not think anyone says the estimates are completely accurate, but rather remain consistent when examined using different methods of calculation. Here is a good simple explanation of the calculation of the estimated figure.

Holocaust Facts: Where Does the Figure of 6 Million Victims Come From?
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/.premium-1.540880

Mom: It was because the Jews were the ones that were force to keep those records.

It's a mixed bag of sources. For Treblinka, the Germans kept good records as can be seen in the Hofle telegram (decrypted only in the last 20 years), yet simultaneously, the Polish Catholic Station master at Treblinka keep a diary of the transport numbers, as he knew a crime was being committed. These figures remain consistent with other secondary evidence like the number of mass graves located in the recent archaeological investigation.

There are a couple of real holocaust historians on the Skeptic Society anti-holocaust denial sub forum, who can answer any detailed questions you may have. ( There are also some deniers, but that what forums are all about)

 

[KDLarsen]

Likewise sources such as the Jäger Report which dealt with victims of one of the Einsatzgruppen, and the Korherr Report, which used statistics to show the decline in the number of jews in Europe.

IIRC the German Railways also kept some fairly detailed accounts of the number of jews transported by them, as they collected ticket money(!) from the SS. So for Treblinka, it's even possible to draw up tables such as this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Treblinka

 

[Mudcat]

That's simple reality. Holocaust deniers are not persecuted. They are just treated like the stupid lying racist bigots they are.

Not so simple after all, I think. I've mentioned this before, but it's my belief that holocaust denial is based mostly off of shear disbelief. Sure, the history of mankind is full wars, conquests, and crusades, but what the Nazis did was unthinkable to such a degree as to be unbelievable. And I'm not just talking about just the number of people they killed but the way in which they did it. If it started back up again, today, would you believe it?

Also while it's also hard someone would make up such horrendous crimes, it's not exactly unheard of. Once again, in that vein, I have to point out that the Jews have made up crimes almost as bad (see Exodus for example) and maintained that as true since antiquity in face of evidence saying it never happened. So while I know the holocaust happened I also wouldn't put it past the Jews to make it up completely or greatly exaggerate it.

 

[bruto]

Last I looked, the folklore of Exodus was shared by Christians, who also believe in the crucifixion and the resurrection and the virgin birth and a few other rather unlikely things. Of course one has to corroborate history, but considering "the Jews" as somehow especially unreliable seems a bit odd.