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Heaven Makes No Sense

Remove all notions of physicality from any concept of heaven because that is superfluous. If heaven is a metaphysical state and it cannot be anything else by inference then nothing physical can exist within it. Now using logic to explain this is not easy. As human minds do not automatically have the capacity to imagine heaven in metaphysical terms because they have zero experience of metaphysics itself. Therefore no points of reference to guide them. The nearest anyone shall ever get to heaven is death for that is non physical or non conscious and eternal and has absolutely no bearing up on physical reality either. Attributes equally applicable to metaphysical states


I do not agree. I had an experience. It may have been simply my imagination. But why are you so certain that my soul did not somehow connect for a while, and leave me with the memory? The science of mind has a long way to go to prove it could not happen.

If we have souls, it is logical that do more than just go along for the ride. It also seems logical that they assist in ethical and intellectual guidance (and maybe some tweaks to our DNA and growth). If so, they might be able to influence thought. Thus they can have inspiration that gives them insight into the metaphysical. A metaphysical God could let free will take it's course unless it led to extinction. In which case, some subtle tweaking would be required.

There are many examples of scientific and religious inspiration that have been great leaps for mankind. Before modern science, religion was the guiding authority. Wrong and corrupt on occasion, yes. But the direction of mankind was ultimately positive.

We are due for a great correction to avoid the sixth great extinction that might include us.
 
The above demonstrates that many Christians believe that heaven is occupied by actual physical bodies and not just a spiritual abode.

The NT writers talked about physical bodily resurrection of the dead and not just a spiritual existence.

(snip)

The Quran promises males they will have virgins and little boys serving them wine and food as well as "servicing" their other needs while they recline on cushions and enjoy the murmurs of rivers of honey and wine and milk flowing past their villas.

I am guessing this heaven occupied by ghostly phantasms is not exactly the majority view.


Let us say that God wants his message to be spread, but not proved.

Being technical does not work. The masses need something more substantive. It may not be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but it serves the purpose.

Note: Christianity is fading in some countries. Let us take Sweden as an example. What is the latest message from God? It is the teachings of Mohammad based on the New and Old Testaments. (The splinter religions are irrelevant for the most part.)

So what happens? The wars and destruction in the Middle East are forcing many Muslims to migrate. Sweden and Germany are favorite destinations, and they are taking in huge numbers. Voila. God works in mysterious ways, but it is the result that counts, is it not?
 
One does not put faith in scientific theories one just accepts them. Do you
put faith in gravity for example since it might be true ? Or do you accept it
from a knowledge perspective and know it is true ? And you cannot choose
what to accept and not accept either. Your interpretation of physical reality
does not make that so. It is what it is regardless of what you think about it

Having an experience does not equate to having a soul. Things that are non
physical by definition cannot be proven. But in no way does that make them
real. Since the Universe is nothing but physical then anything that is not can
be disregarded. And invoking God Of The Gaps is committing a logical fallacy
 
The above demonstrates that many Christians believe that heaven is occupied by actual physical bodies and not just a spiritual abode.
Actually the above just demonstrates that about one Christian.
 
Let us say that God wants his message to be spread, but not proved.
...


Yup... God is a deadbeat sky daddy... he wants his children to call him daddy but he is never around to be seen and does not even help with the upkeep.

What a pathetic vile fool this God is!!

Or more correctly said... what a pathetic vile benighted delusion this imaginary sky daddy is!!!
 
How many variations of "I can't, personally, conceive how life could have arisen spontaneously, therefore the only explanation is that God had to do it" have to continuously keep manifesting over the course of life, and continue to ignore/deny the baggage of information that actually explains this question? At what point does mankind, as a whole, grow the hell up out of this GodDaddy mentality?
 
Religion is an extremely persistent meme. It offers comfort in times of trouble, simple explanations of complicated situations, and justification for all of your deep-seated prejudices. And you're surprised that it's still popular?
 
How many variations of "I can't, personally, conceive how life could have arisen spontaneously, therefore the only explanation is that God had to do it" have to continuously keep manifesting over the course of life, and continue to ignore/deny the baggage of information that actually explains this question? At what point does mankind, as a whole, grow the hell up out of this GodDaddy mentality?


It will not happen during this evolutionary stage of Homo Sapiens.

The Sky Daddies delusion is the product of a hyperactive child-like imagination and wishful thinking and child-like fear of the unknown and child-like need for love and support and comforting and child-like wish for vengeance and "justice" and protection against the meanies.

The real core of the problem is that people are willing to delude themselves and let others dupe them because mentally they are frightened pathetic wretched children. They are trembling lumps of insignificant debris floating on the waves of space-time trying to construe by any self-delusion a significance for their fleeting moment of existence punctuated by terror, and inexorable calamities.

Impotent to exact justice or to stem the currents and waves of time, they raise their arms up like children begging in supplication to an imagined sky daddy to lift them up and give them a comforting hug and to beat up the neighboring children.

The major tragedy of course is that this infantile psychological condition was and is viciously and cynically and predatorily exploited by clever brigands and wily poltroons to huckster and bamboozle the quivering shivering sheep. Much like all the other shams, scams and hoaxes discovered or invented by numerous hoodwinkers and mountebanks throughout the ages and are still being utilized even today despite all available knowledge.

It is a humongous shame upon humanity that still even in the 21st century people are still willing to fool themselves with sky daddies.

But what is a bigger shame is that people who claim to be not deluded by any sky daddies are willing to defend the sky daddy delusions incessantly and indefatigably and belligerently and acerbically and to label people who demonstrate the preposterousness of it as insane and demented and psychologically damaged ex-altar boys who have a "thing" that prevents them from thinking rationally about the usefulness of the sky daddies they claim not to believe in.

In a Midrash there is a story about Abraham destroying some of the Idols his Father worshiped and then made it appear as if one of the unharmed idols did it. When the people questioned him while accusing him...he said that if they don't believe that the idols were able to do it or defend themselves then why do they worship them?

In the OT (1 Kings 18:22-40) there is a story about Elijah challenging the priests of Baal to a show of force between YHWH and BAAL.... obviously YHWH wins and Elijah (not YHWH for a change) massacres all 450 prophets of Baal and that is supposed to prove that Baal is not real.

I propose a similar challenge between all the religions of the world.

Let’s have the United Nations organize a WORLD WIDE invitation to the representatives of ALL the religions that care to participate… any that don’t are acknowledging defeat.

The representative are then allowed a month to pray and worship in the manner they want as prescribed in their scriptures/traditions and so forth.

After the month is out and they have expended all efforts to supplicate or arouse their gods to action they are to ask their respective gods to do the following.

On an appointed date chosen to have a good clear weather and to have a full moon at night… during the day and during the night local time where the UN building is (i.e. New York).

Whatever god is able to perform… if there are multiple gods then they have to either fight it out and the winner ALONE gets to perform… or … They agree to TIME SHARE and decide who gets to go first and then second etc….. or they can elect one of them to do the writing for all of them.

During the day ALL DAY … Must BLINK THE SUN using MORSE CODE … In ENGLISH… to spell out the name of the religion s/he/it endorses… if there are multiple gods that are participating then they have to coordinate and time share the sun so as to Morse code all their respective religions in succession… or they can fight each other and the winner alone does it.

During the night ALL NIGHT … Must BLINK THE MOON using MORSE CODE … In ENGLISH… to spell out the name of the religion s/he/it endorses… if there are multiple gods that are participating then they have to coordinate and time share the moon so as to Morse code their respective religions in succession… or they can fight each other and the winner alone does it.​

ANY and ALL religions whose names are not listed then must concede that their gods are either non-existent or have just lost the competition and thus are lesser god.

If nothing happens then there are no gods or they do not care.

In any case… this will be televised and transmitted all around the world. All news agencies and the religious representatives sent to the UN can have their own satellite feed to wherever they want to transmit.

I think that any other details can be worked out in a preceding UN Conference.

Why doesn’t the world do something like this? We have the technology now to make this visible to ALL humans around the world… every human can see it and verify for himself or herself.

We also should have this event repeat every 25 years just in case this god dies or is subsequently defeated in a later god competition… if they would care to televise the fighting on a reality show called GODLY SURVIVOR that would be nice.
 
Impotent to exact justice or to stem the currents and waves of time, they raise their arms up like children begging in supplication to an imagined sky daddy to lift them up and give them a comforting hug and to beat up the neighboring children.

<snip>

I propose a similar challenge between all the religions of the world.

Let’s have the United Nations organize a WORLD WIDE invitation to the representatives of ALL the religions that care to participate… any that don’t are acknowledging defeat.

The representative are then allowed a month to pray and worship in the manner they want as prescribed in their scriptures/traditions and so forth.

<snip further details>

ANY and ALL religions whose names are not listed then must concede that their gods are either non-existent or have just lost the competition and thus are lesser god.

<snip>


Some people fantasize about deities; others fantasize about sudden spontaneous worldwide fundamental changes in human nature.

:con2:
 
It will not happen during this evolutionary stage of Homo Sapiens.


Of course it won't. But that didn't stop you from writing over a dozen paragraphs describing how it might, if it did.

Some people fantasize about deities; others fantasize about sudden spontaneous worldwide fundamental changes in human nature.


You thought (reasonably enough IMO) that it was appropriate to post in detail about an acknowledged counterfactual, as if it possessed some value. Yet your boldfaced screed a few posts back attacks the propriety of religious non-believers finding any value in religious narratives that are equally counterfactual to them. Hence the :con2:.
 
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Religion is an extremely persistent meme. It offers comfort in times of trouble, simple explanations of complicated situations, and justification for all of your deep-seated prejudices. And you're surprised that it's still popular?

I'm not surprised. I only asked, almost to myself, at what point does mankind evolve out of this mentality.
 
Of course it won't. But that didn't stop you from writing over a dozen paragraphs describing how it might, if it did.


Ah... now I get it ... so when you said

Some people fantasize about deities; others fantasize about sudden spontaneous worldwide fundamental changes in human nature.


You were ridiculing my post... I understand now.

So sarcasm and parody is not something you appreciate... maybe I should have included a laugh track.

Besides my post being a parody on the IRONY of religious beliefs and the HYPOCRISY of their irrationality, I was outlining how we can use something that they can well appreciate as a means of proving the falsity of their god just like they think they have used it to prove the falsity of other people's gods.

I was SPECULATING with TONGUE IN CHEEK how if we use their "reasoning" they might be honest and consistent so as to appreciate how the very same "logic" also proves their gods false.

I think the first sentence along with the following two paragraphs in my post which you clipped out (without any indication that you have done so) when you quoted it in your post should have given you a clue to the SARCASTIC stance I was taking.

It will not happen during this evolutionary stage of Homo Sapiens.

The Sky Daddies delusion is the product of a hyperactive child-like imagination and wishful thinking and child-like fear of the unknown and child-like need for love and support and comforting and child-like wish for vengeance and "justice" and protection against the meanies.

The real core of the problem is that people are willing to delude themselves and let others dupe them because mentally they are frightened pathetic wretched children. They are trembling lumps of insignificant debris floating on the waves of space-time trying to construe by any self-delusion a significance for their fleeting moment of existence punctuated by terror, and inexorable calamities.
....


I think if you have actually read them you might have realized the SARCASM and PARODY I was doing

You thought (reasonably enough IMO) that it was appropriate to post in detail about an acknowledged counterfactual, as if it possessed some value. Yet your boldfaced screed a few posts back attacks the propriety of religious non-believers finding any value in religious narratives that are equally counterfactual to them. Hence the :con2:.


"Counterfactual"... I love the P.C. term.... nice one.

I would have called it claptrap and fables and myths and fairy tales.... but hey... no one has ever accused me of being P.C.

"Screed"... now where is that P.C. attitude you were using for the "counterfactual" claptrap... couldn't you have described my "screed" with anything less insulting?

Here is another paragraph in my "screed" that you failed to appreciate.

...
But what is a bigger shame is that people who claim to be not deluded by any sky daddies are willing to defend the sky daddy delusions incessantly and indefatigably and belligerently and acerbically and to label people who demonstrate the preposterousness of it as insane and demented and psychologically damaged ex-altar boys who have a "thing" that prevents them from thinking rationally about the usefulness of the sky daddies they claim not to believe in.
...
 
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The boldface paragraph that you claim I failed to appreciate was precisely the paragraph I was referring to. My subtle clue was the description "boldface."

"[Religious people] are trembling lumps of insignificant debris floating on the waves of space-time trying to construe by any self-delusion a significance for their fleeting moment of existence punctuated by terror, and inexorable calamities."

"[But how dare anyone] label people who demonstrate the preposterousness of it as insane and demented and psychologically damaged ex-altar boys who have a "thing" that prevents them from thinking rationally about the usefulness of the sky daddies they claim not to believe in."

Still :con2:; don't see much difference between what you're doing in the first quote and what you're objecting to other people doing in the second. Sorry.
 
...

Still :con2:; don't see much difference between what you're doing in the first quote and what you're objecting to other people doing in the second. Sorry.


:confused::boggled::eye-poppi:eek::yikes:

So you cannot see the difference between
people who believe in magic and supernatural claptrap and sky daddies who rape little girls to impregnate them with their children and sky daddies who ask people to snip off the tips of their genitals to ratify fraudulent real estate contracts and people who believe that their sky daddy asks them to kill people,​
and
people who tell them that all the sky daddy stuff is benighted retardation.​

When a doctor tells a person he has syphilis is it then logical for a third person to come along and tell the doctor that he is a demented nasty crazy doctor who is no healthier than the people who have syphilis?

Like I said before
It is a humongous shame upon humanity that still even in the 21st century people are still willing to fool themselves with sky daddies.

But what is a bigger shame is that people who claim to be not deluded by any sky daddies are willing to defend the sky daddy delusions incessantly and indefatigably and belligerently and acerbically and to label people who demonstrate the preposterousness of it as insane and demented and psychologically damaged ex-altar boys who have a "thing" that prevents them from thinking rationally about the usefulness of the sky daddies they claim not to believe in.​
 
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If I'm allowed to chime in late, I don't see how all fantasies are equal. Both being pipe dreams, it seems to me like fantasizing about world peace (how's that for a change in human nature?) is nevertheless not the same as fantasizing about, say, fantasizing about sending the blacks back to Africa. Or it seems to me like, as delusions go, the delusion that all people can be rational is not the same as, say, a delusion that I'm the next emperor of Xanadu and don't have to worry about raking up a debt.

Unfortunately, delusions are not all benign. E.g., in a study that especially the religious love to cite, superstitious people who were told that a ball was lucky tended to play golf more aggressively. So, see, superstition can be good, right?

Well, yes, if it's something as lacking consequences as playing golf alone. Not so much, if it's about betting the house in Vegas, or paying attention on the highway, and so on.

Which should be no surprise. Believing X means believing X is true. Therefore, you can follow an X => Y.

So even if I'm to accept that "Some people fantasize about deities; others fantasize about sudden spontaneous worldwide fundamental changes in human nature", and even skipping over the fact that we have examples of people changing beliefs, but not so much about the former fantasy ever being true... I still don't see how that's all equal. Exactly what kind of similar problems is the latter going to cause?
 
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