Heaven Makes No Sense

[PartSkeptic]

anyway the sinners are much more fun

It is temporary. The hangover is long and painful. The deeper the hole one digs, the harder it is to get out.

I don't know how long you have lived, and how many older people you have been in contact with, but the sinners do not have a great life in their old age. There may be the apparent exception but probably only appearances.

Dominique Strauss-Kahn and Phil Specter are two that I would say are not particularly happy.

 

[calebprime]

It is temporary. The hangover is long and painful. The deeper the hole one digs, the harder it is to get out.

I don't know how long you have lived, and how many older people you have been in contact with, but the sinners do not have a great life in their old age. There may be the apparent exception but probably only appearances.

Dominique Strauss-Kahn and Phil Specter are two that I would say are not particularly happy.

This mixes up happiness with morality, which is confusing enough. It also mixes up notions of human justice with notions of an afterlife -- an afterlife where justice is meted out -- which is even more dubious.

None of this stands up to scrutiny.

It assumes there really is a right way to act, and everyone really knows that right way in their heart of hearts, and we'd all get along if we all acted a certain way.

There are, very broadly speaking, consistencies in human nature -- some basic things we all need. Beyond that, different people are different.

Life isn't a coherent story which culminates in a just conclusion of old age -- an old age which is the meaning and fulfillment of all that has gone on before. For one thing, it's a lot more random and unfair than that.

 

[nota]

It is temporary. The hangover is long and painful. The deeper the hole one digs, the harder it is to get out.

I don't know how long you have lived, and how many older people you have been in contact with, but the sinners do not have a great life in their old age. There may be the apparent exception but probably only appearances.

Dominique Strauss-Kahn and Phil Specter are two that I would say are not particularly happy.

yes it sucks to get caught by our justice system
but that has NOTHING TO DO WITH HEAVEN OR HELL

but no sin currently [if you believe what is in the bible]
is NOT punished nor are the righteous rewarded
both are on a long dirt nap

there is no entrance to heaven
or judgement of sin
until the trump [ return of J C ]

sorry but your rule book not my spin

 

[tsig]

It felt like it. It seemed like I was with my late wife who had just passed away at that time.

The strange thing is that I thought it would be boring also, but it was not. Time is not the same anyhow.

Having never had heroin I cannot cannot comment on the comparison.

As for losing ones personality, that is actually what one keeps. The essence of who one is. The rest is just dross that falls away. The memories fade.

And then at some time one is reborn into a new physical embryo to guide its development, and to learn and evolve even more.

You guys don't think that simple molecules can form the incredible complexity of intelligent life without guidance do you? Spirits evolve - basic logic. If Earth had primitive primates then those primitive primates had primitive souls. All designs evolve.

You are not made of molecules?

 

[PartSkeptic]

This mixes up happiness with morality, which is confusing enough. It also mixes up notions of human justice with notions of an afterlife -- an afterlife where justice is meted out -- which is even more dubious.

None of this stands up to scrutiny.

It assumes there really is a right way to act, and everyone really knows that right way in their heart of hearts, and we'd all get along if we all acted a certain way.

There are, very broadly speaking, consistencies in human nature -- some basic things we all need. Beyond that, different people are different.

Life isn't a coherent story which culminates in a just conclusion of old age -- an old age which is the meaning and fulfillment of all that has gone on before. For one thing, it's a lot more random and unfair than that.

There is a right and wrong way, and it needs to be taught. Some learn it and stay with it, and some learn the hard lessons of life and change. There will always be conflict and evil, and people have free will to decide what to do with their time on earth, and maybe what happens in the after-life.

Not all souls get to continue. Some are just extinguished if they have not learned to evolve.

Your sign-off says "Life sucks and then you die".

For some people maybe. I have seen a lot, and there is a pattern. It may not be due any supernatural influence, but from my experience it is there.

Money and power does not buy peace of mind, but many Christians and Muslims do have it because of their beliefs, irrespective of how poor they are. I have seen the extremes at both ends, as well as the average Joe.

In everything there are Bell curves, so the above is a generalization, with exceptions at both ends.

But who am I? Just one person, with one life. Hardly a scientific poll. Talking of scientific polls with margins of error, you should check out some recent landslide elections that were predicted to be "too close to call".

Morality is at a crisis point, and coincidentally (?) so are the social and economic systems. Time for major change, perhaps brought about by a higher power?

 

[PartSkeptic]

You are not made of molecules?

I am.

And do you think that the Big Bang (which I think happened) has all the cosmological constants "just right" (a Goldilocks universe) so that intelligent life can evolve on one unusual planet?

And do you also think that dumb quarks despite their strange colorful upside down charm just happened to be of such complexity as to be able to form intelligent life by chance? Given the gazzilions of events that sprang from one singularity, so that anything that can happen will happen?

Okay, it that is what you believe. Do you believe in free will, or do you think everything was determined at time t=0?

 

[calebprime]

The positive part of my sig line, to which you refer, is that a good friend of mine used to sing it, loudly, and it always cracked me up -- the combination of the soaring, upbeat melody and the words. So it reminds me of him.

 

[arthwollipot]

What makes you think our planet is unusual?

 

[tsig]

I am.

And do you think that the Big Bang (which I think happened) has all the cosmological constants "just right" (a Goldilocks universe) so that intelligent life can evolve on one unusual planet?

And do you also think that dumb quarks despite their strange colorful upside down charm just happened to be of such complexity as to be able to form intelligent life by chance? Given the gazzilions of events that sprang from one singularity, so that anything that can happen will happen?

Okay, it that is what you believe. Do you believe in free will, or do you think everything was determined at time t=0?

Any universe is a Goldilocks universe to those living in it.

If anything that can happen will happen then intelligent life is inevitable.

 

[AdamSK]

You guys don't think that simple molecules can form the incredible complexity of intelligent life without guidance do you?

There is quite a bit of evidence that exactly this, not only can happen, but in fact did happen.

What part of the evolutionary process do you deny?

 

[Myriad]

And then at some time one is reborn into a new physical embryo to guide its development, and to learn and evolve even more.

Heaven AND reincarnation both? That's a rather belt-and-suspenders approach to the afterlife.

It's all moot, though, if you fail to learn your labyrinth patterns, and Temes Savsap eats your soul.

 

[tsig]

Heaven AND reincarnation both? That's a rather belt-and-suspenders approach to the afterlife.

It's all moot, though, if you fail to learn your labyrinth patterns, and Temes Savsap eats your soul.

You are all doomed because you have not been bathed in the blood of The Great Apis Bull.

 

[Z]

I have.

Wait, no, that was something else...

 

[PartSkeptic]

There is quite a bit of evidence that exactly this, not only can happen, but in fact did happen.

What part of the evolutionary process do you deny?

I do not deny the evolutionary process. The evidence is that it did happen.

The key question is why? Why did it happen? Some say dumb luck? Some say it just did, so no need to wonder why? Some simply say "Because!" And others invent theories that are as fanciful as unicorns.

The cosmologists are now coming up with theories that sound like wishful thinking. Do your research and see the myths that are springing up around this "science".

Just because some elegant mathematics hints at some possible physical phenomenon does not mean that the phenomenon exists. Mathematics helps us, but many formula's were plain wrong. The correct ones were proved. How is one going to prove multiverse theories, and some other hypotheses?

 

[PartSkeptic]

Heaven AND reincarnation both? That's a rather belt-and-suspenders approach to the afterlife.

It's all moot, though, if you fail to learn your labyrinth patterns, and Temes Savsap eats your soul.

Reincarnation makes sense on many levels. One is that if physical life is "guided" by a soul, then as physical life evolves it need to be accompanied by an evolving soul.

Another is that if souls are eternal then the afterlife is going to be very crowded with souls who WILL get bored.

And if we are in a computer simulation, then the soul represents a piece of code that is improved with time and use, and a human represents a particular instance of that code being put to use until no longer required.

The supernatural is not chaotic and random. Logic applies.

 

[tsig]

Reincarnation makes sense on many levels. One is that if physical life is "guided" by a soul, then as physical life evolves it need to be accompanied by an evolving soul.

Another is that if souls are eternal then the afterlife is going to be very crowded with souls who WILL get bored.

And if we are in a computer simulation, then the soul represents a piece of code that is improved with time and use, and a human represents a particular instance of that code being put to use until no longer required.

The supernatural is not chaotic and random. Logic applies.

It might not be chaotic but it is full of "if".

 

[surreptitious57]

Remove all notions of physicality from any concept of heaven because that
is superfluous. If heaven is a metaphysical state and it cannot be anything
else by inference then nothing physical can exist within it. Now using logic
to explain this is not easy. As human minds do not automatically have the
capacity to imagine heaven in metaphysical terms because they have zero
experience of metaphysics itself. Therefore no points of reference to guide
them. The nearest anyone shall ever get to heaven is death for that is non
physical or non conscious and eternal and has absolutely no bearing up on
physical reality either. Attributes equally applicable to metaphysical states

 

[Craig B]

Remove all notions of physicality from any concept of heaven because that
is superfluous. If heaven is a metaphysical state and it cannot be anything
else by inference then nothing physical can exist within it. Now using logic
to explain this is not easy. As human minds do not automatically have the
capacity to imagine heaven in metaphysical terms because they have zero
experience of metaphysics itself. Therefore no points of reference to guide
them. The nearest anyone shall ever get to heaven is death for that is non
physical or non conscious and eternal and has absolutely no bearing up on
physical reality either. Attributes equally applicable to metaphysical states

It's not true that all believers, or at least all Christians, believe that nothing physical can exist in Heaven.

The Assumption of the Virgin Mary into Heaven, often shortened to the Assumption, and also known as the Falling Asleep of the Blessed Virgin Mary, according to the beliefs of the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and parts of Anglicanism, was the bodily taking up of the Virgin Mary into Heaven at the end of her earthly life.

The Catholic Church teaches as dogma that the Virgin Mary "having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory". This doctrine was dogmatically defined by Pope Pius XII on November 1, 1950, in the Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus by exercising papal infallibility.​

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...+heaven&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari&&ct=clnk

 

[MCel58]

It's not true that all believers, or at least all Christians, believe that nothing physical can exist in Heaven.

The Assumption of the Virgin Mary into Heaven, often shortened to the Assumption, and also known as the Falling Asleep of the Blessed Virgin Mary, according to the beliefs of the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and parts of Anglicanism, was the bodily taking up of the Virgin Mary into Heaven at the end of her earthly life.

The Catholic Church teaches as dogma that the Virgin Mary "having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory". This doctrine was dogmatically defined by Pope Pius XII on November 1, 1950, in the Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus by exercising papal infallibility.​

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...+heaven&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari&&ct=clnk

Actually, not just the Catholic Church but also according to Wikipedia "The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that three other persons were taken bodily into heaven: Enoch, Elijah (Elias) and the Theotokos (Virgin Mary). Similar to the Western "Assumption" of Mary, the Orthodox celebrate the Dormition of the Theotokos on August 15. Unlike Western uncertainty about Mary's physical death, the Orthodox teach that Mary died a natural death like any other human being, that she was buried by the Apostles (except for Thomas, who was late), and three days later (after Thomas had arrived) was found to be missing from her tomb. The church teaches that the Apostles received a revelation during which the Theotokos appeared to them and told them she had been resurrected by Jesus and taken body and soul into heaven. The Orthodox teach that Mary already enjoys the fullness of heavenly bliss that the other saints will experience only after the Last Judgment" for more on this and how many religions have taken this view see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entering_Heaven_alive

 

[Leumas]

Remove all notions of physicality from any concept of heaven because that
is superfluous. If heaven is a metaphysical state and it cannot be anything
else by inference then nothing physical can exist within it.
...

I once advised a Christian lady who was so distraught about having to get rid of her leg that was amputated and wanted to keep it until she died and then burry it with her body so that God could reassemble her on the day of the resurrection.

I explained to her that if god is capable of resurrecting people who have rotted for millennia and have become dust he could regrow for her another leg upon resurrecting her body.

The above demonstrates that many Christians believe that heaven is occupied by actual physical bodies and not just a spiritual abode.

The NT writers talked about physical bodily resurrection of the dead and not just a spiritual existence.

Revelation talks about a Neojerusalem with thrones of gold and pearls and streets of gold and 12 gates and singing hymnals and genuflecting and people sitting on seats in the throne hall of god etc. etc.

The Quran promises males they will have virgins and little boys serving them wine and food as well as "servicing" their other needs while they recline on cushions and enjoy the murmurs of rivers of honey and wine and milk flowing past their villas.

I am guessing this heaven occupied by ghostly phantasms is not exactly the majority view.

Now using logic
to explain this is not easy illogical. ....

IFTFY