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Split Thread Race and European Immigration

Skeptic Tank

Trigger Warning
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
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This thread has been split from here.
Posted By: Agatha


That's the ideal solution to people who hate people of a different religion, a person who hates people of a different skin colour. ETA: in 1972 Mariane Le Pen would have been a bit young, at least she is less of an embarrassment than her father, who lost a defamation case he brought against Le Monde, when it accused him of war crimes.

Muslims already have several nations. Nonwhites already have large areas of the globe under their control.

For the sake of diversity and harmony, France should remain the place where French people are. Europe should remain the place where white European people with their particular history and culture are to be found.

If people with a much higher birth rate and a different genetic makeup are allowed to come in large numbers, Europeans will go extinct over time and their distinctive unique character will be lost.

There's a reason we consider Neanderthals extinct even though their DNA still exists within most of humanity. Being consumed into a larger and more prolific genome = extinction.
 
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Muslims already have several nations. Nonwhites already have large areas of the globe under their control.

For the sake of diversity and harmony, France should remain the place where French people are. Europe should remain the place where white European people with their particular history and culture are to be found.

If people with a much higher birth rate and a different genetic makeup are allowed to come in large numbers, Europeans will go extinct over time and their distinctive unique character will be lost.

There's a reason we consider Neanderthals extinct even though their DNA still exists within most of humanity. Being consumed into a larger and more prolific genome = extinction.

And I suppose the USA should remain the place where native americans are?
 
:D I'll take that as a compliment, and presume you also recognized it as the satire it was meant to be.

I'll just say that I thought it would have been an entry in the spirit of that competition...

OK, not Marines .... early news reports once again were wrong on a few facts ... but so what?

Four good men did a good thing, and all I can say is thanks, well done, and wish I could by them all a series of pints.

Some of the tripe in this thread is a great disappointment.

@miac: thanks for posting, glad you are OK.
Agree with all of this

Muslims already have several nations. Nonwhites already have large areas of the globe under their control.

For the sake of diversity and harmony, France should remain the place where French people are. Europe should remain the place where white European people with their particular history and culture are to be found.

If people with a much higher birth rate and a different genetic makeup are allowed to come in large numbers, Europeans will go extinct over time and their distinctive unique character will be lost.

There's a reason we consider Neanderthals extinct even though their DNA still exists within most of humanity. Being consumed into a larger and more prolific genome = extinction.
And I suppose the USA should remain the place where native americans are?

Someone had to make the obvious point that many of us were thinking - thanks.

I think it is probably hard for a dyed in the wool racist to understand, but seeing people as people means that such hateful feelings can be avoided.

Fear leads to hate, hate leads to making a fool of oneself on the internet.

Of my ten closest colleagues, one is a Korean national, one Taiwanese, one came from Afghanistan, one from Romania, and the rest came from the UK, including a devout Muslim of Pakistani extraction.

Racism would be a really stupid way for me to go.
 
If people with a much higher birth rate and a different genetic makeup are allowed to come in large numbers, Europeans will go extinct over time and their distinctive unique character will be lost.
I recall that racists have been peddling this sort of bollocks for the last 50-60 years, usually claiming it would happen within 10-20 years. Time has proved them wrong.
 
What are people going on about France for?

It's all France to the Conservatives.

The four received the Legion of Honor from the French President today. Well done, France.

Apparently it's all France to the French, as well? Or perhaps I was correct in feeling that, despite not happening within their borders, what took place here is intimately connected to France nonetheless. It is clearly being perceived as an event which happened to France even if it did not happen within France technically.

And I suppose the USA should remain the place where native americans are?

You mean North America? The United States is a white social construct. Prior to whites arriving and making a nation here, the Amerindians had no concept of this continent's dimensions, no sense of cohesion between one another, and existed largely as roving stone age bands of hunter gatherers who routinely committed genocide upon one another.

It was never destined to remain under the control of such people in the modern age, just as Australia was not going to reasonably remain under the control of its aboriginals. These were people that time forgot, and they were going to be pushed aside by someone. The only question was who. I'm very glad it was my group which got control of this continent because well, it's my group and they objectively did some very amazing things here which the natives showed not even the slightest hint of ever being likely to do.

I am open about my use of double standards, by the way. I have allegiance to my group and I want to see the best for my group take place. I consider our civilization to be an upgrade to all but a select few others.

This sort of double standard is utterly commonplace. The same groups who complain about the history of white colonialism are currently colonizing Europe in the ways which they are able to get away with. People will make whatever arguments and engage in whatever mental gymnastics put their group in a more favorable position and gain them more influence, more territory, more power.

Human beings are tribal and biased. I see very little effort on the part of any nonwhites to even attempt to be even handed. That's pretty much a white thing. A suicidal white thing.

It bothers me deeply to see the ancestral lands of my group being filled up with outsiders. It bothers me significantly more to see that than it does to fret about my group displacing others in the past. Even if I were bothered by it, it's done. I can't undo what my ancestors did here or Australia or anywhere else. So because what's happening to my people and their lands is happening now, it is obviously something which will draw my attention more. All of this is so incredibly natural and obvious. I have never made a claim that I strive for objectivity on this sort of thing. Objectivity is a crazy thing to expect on issues of identity and group survival.

I think it is probably hard for a dyed in the wool racist to understand, but seeing people as people means that such hateful feelings can be avoided.

Dyed in the wool is a term which designates someone as ideologically unmovable and tends to indicate someone who is, root and stem, that way and always has been. I was a hard core Marxist progressive and racial egalitarian until a few years ago. I don't think I qualify.

I see people as people. I also see them as biological beings who have variations like any other species does. I also value the preservation of those distinct differences, especially in relation to those of my own group.

More importantly, I understand human nature and history well enough to know that multiracial societies are absolute powder kegs and this is becoming more obvious all the time. Whatever you may wish or dream about humans' capacity to get along, reality merits a great deal of cynicism about this. Is the risk of balkanization, civil war, and blood in the streets worth pursuing what you hope can happen?

Have you ever worried that you might be overly optimistic and that people with your sorts of views are setting a lot of countries up for horrible conflict?

I certainly didn't worry about it when I had your sort of views. I was just convinced of my righteousness and impressed with how tolerant and progressive I was. I was also considerably less informed and worldly then than I am now.

lol

Very good come back to the redneck

Redneck? Not by any definition I've ever seen. I'm an educated, intelligent Yankee and I work (and have worked) in technical fields. Rednecks are typically lifelong conservatives whose views are based in nothing more than ignorance and fear and they are most clearly defined by the work they do and their culture. That work, in order for them to be a redneck, needs to be some sort of outdoor physical labor, typically. That culture tends to include country music, NASCAR and the confederate flag.

If you knew me, you'd be hard pressed to find someone further from that mark. The only qualification I fit is being white.

My views are the result of a great deal of consideration and agonizing. I did not reach them easily, quickly, or lightly. I did not want to end up with the views I now have. I have frequently wished I could go back to thinking what I did before, because it was a great deal more comfortable and I was much less distressed about the state of the world and the look of the future.

I have no use for confederate flags, racial slurs, country music, or NASCAR. In fact, I really loathe all of the above.

I'm merely someone who has been forced to see things a certain way by the use of my logical faculties. If I'm wrong (and I sincerely hope I am, actually) then it is wrongness honestly come by and sincerely arrived at. It is by no means the result of mindless cowardice or knee-jerk fear of change and the unknown. Rest assured of that.

I can also guarantee you that there are a LOT of former progressives who are where I'm at now. I have met so many of them. We're seeing more all the time. You would be amazed, and no doubt frightened. A lot of people find it very comfortable to believe "racism" and nationalism are these dead things which exist only in a few very old people and are on their way out. Passed down only in extremist families. Oh how wrong they are. Brace yourself for a real shock as these kind of views become more and more commonplace. You will note that the converts are coming primarily from the ranks of progressives, not milquetoast conservatives. Just watch.

I recall that racists have been peddling this sort of bollocks for the last 50-60 years, usually claiming it would happen within 10-20 years. Time has proved them wrong.

I can't speak for what anyone in the past was claiming, and I don't care whether they had their time predictions wrong or not. If you have any sort of familiarity with the current birth rates of various groups, and the volume of immigration, then you know there is really no debate about what is happening.

Have you looked at the racial makeup of London primary schools? Or just the racial makeup of London itself? It's majority non-English at this point. That is absurd. Point me to the nonwhite city on the planet which has undergone or is undergoing that sort of complete transformation with the native ethnic group being displaced in that way.

It is openly acknowledged (and celebrated) by people on the other side of this issue, and by the mainstream demographers and governments, that the UK, the U.S, France, Sweden, Germany, etc. are demographically locked into patterns now which will make them majority non-white. Most of these projections say it will hit around 2050 for some of these places. I know that in the U.S. they've revised the time table for this multiple times, always making the projected date SOONER.

There is absolutely unprecedented mass immigration. Almost all European countries have native populations with below replacement birth rates. Governments which should be attempting to solve native birth rates with public information campaigns and tax incentives, are instead just deciding to "solve" the issue by replacing the populace through third world immigration.

Based on what a couple of you have said, am I to believe you think that any person who wants European nations to remain European in their populations, or at least in their majority populations, is a "racist" ? Would this be true of a Japanese person who wanted Japan to stay overwhelmingly Japanese, racially?
 
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You mean North America? The United States is a white social construct. Prior to whites arriving and making a nation here, the Amerindians had no concept of this continent's dimensions, no sense of cohesion between one another, and existed largely as roving stone age bands of hunter gatherers who routinely committed genocide upon one another.

It was never destined to remain under the control of such people in the modern age, just as Australia was not going to reasonably remain under the control of its aboriginals. These were people that time forgot, and they were going to be pushed aside by someone. The only question was who. I'm very glad it was my group which got control of this continent because well, it's my group and they objectively did some very amazing things here which the natives showed not even the slightest hint of ever being likely to do.

I am open about my use of double standards, by the way. I have allegiance to my group and I want to see the best for my group take place. I consider our civilization to be an upgrade to all but a select few others.

arguments and engage in whatever mental gymnastics put their group in a more favorable position and gain them more influence, more territory, more power.

Human beings are tribal and biased. I see very little effort on the part of any nonwhites to even attempt to be even handed. That's pretty much a white thing. A suicidal white thing.

It bothers me deeply to see the ancestral lands of my group being filled up with outsiders. It bothers me significantly more to see that than it does to fret about my group displacing others in the past. Even if I were bothered by it, it's done. I can't undo what my ancestors did here or Australia or anywhere else. So because what's happening to my people and their lands is happening now, it is obviously something which will draw my attention more. All of this is so incredibly natural and obvious. I have never made a claim that I strive for objectivity on this sort of thing. Objectivity is a crazy thing to expect on issues of identity and group survival.
This is a Poe that calls for Godwinning!
 
@ Skeptic Tank

You must be somewhat perturbed when you look at the pigmentation of the Legion of Honour awardees, what with all your White people stuff.

But it gets worse. One of the heroes of the Kosher Supermarket siege following the Charlie Hebdo massacre was a Mali-born Muslim. And the French government rewarded him with nothing less than French citizenship - racial treason, one might call it, if that expression was still current. White suicide.
 
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@ Skeptic Tank

You must be somewhat perturbed when you look at the pigmentation of the Legion of Honour awardees, what with all your White people stuff.

But it gets worse. One of the heroes of the Kosher Supermarket siege following the Charlie Hebdo massacre was a Mali-born Muslim. And the French government rewarded him with nothing less than French citizenship - racial treason, one might call it, if that expression was still current. White suicide.

Nice straw
 
@ Skeptic Tank

You must be somewhat perturbed when you look at the pigmentation of the Legion of Honour awardees, what with all your White people stuff.

But it gets worse. One of the heroes of the Kosher Supermarket siege following the Charlie Hebdo massacre was a Mali-born Muslim. And the French government rewarded him with nothing less than French citizenship - racial treason, one might call it, if that expression was still current. White suicide.

"French" refers to a nationality, not to an ethnicity/race, despite everything the national front idiots and their fans can say.
Due in part to its colonial past, France has almost never been a "pure white" country. Until France let go of its colonies, populations as varied as Maghrebians, sub-saharian Africans, South Eastern Asians, native South Americans, etc. were automatically French nationals, many of whom decided to remain such after their original country became independent, very often for having served France during one of its war or another. Furthermore, France still includes several territories like Tahiti, Nouvelle Calédonie, the French Carribeans, French Guyana, etc. where the population is "non white" in its majority, and this not due to immigration ...

All this makes ST's ranting rather comical.
 
"French" refers to a nationality, not to an ethnicity/race, despite everything the national front idiots and their fans can say.
Due in part to its colonial past, France has almost never been a "pure white" country.
Due to its slave-importing past, the USA has never been a pure white country either. The very author of the Declaration of Independence didn't have a "pure white" family, it is generally now believed.

In 2012, the Smithsonian Institution and the Thomas Jefferson Foundation held a major exhibit at the National Museum of American History: Slavery at Jefferson's Monticello: The Paradox of Liberty; it says that "evidence strongly support the conclusion that [Thomas] Jefferson was the father of Sally Hemings' children."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Hemings#Jefferson.E2.80.93Hemings_controversy
 
You mean North America?

As far as I remember , if it was not for a massive die off due to an epidemic shortly before, the "white" settler would not have found a wide open unoccupied space. And that space was far more cultivated and far less wild than the Amerindian found it, so you can thank them.

if there had not been a massive die off, *maybe* the USA would have been colonized like africa was at a point but by now it would be free and liberated like most colony are.

So just be happy that due to natural incident the continental US was mostly free for the take. Being white had nothing to do with it. Think smaller like yersinia pestis.
 
Alright, well are any of you prepared to simply answer this very basic question honestly and without insults?

Do you believe that the current posture of western nations with regard to third world and Muslim immigration may be setting these nations up for intense internal conflicts between groups which break down on racial, religious and/or cultural lines?

If you're prepared to admit that this is at least a possibility, feel free to attach something about how likely or unlikely you find it to be, how destructive you think it could be, and why.
 
"French" refers to a nationality, not to an ethnicity/race, despite everything the national front idiots and their fans can say.
Due in part to its colonial past, France has almost never been a "pure white" country. Until France let go of its colonies, populations as varied as Maghrebians, sub-saharian Africans, South Eastern Asians, native South Americans, etc. were automatically French nationals, many of whom decided to remain such after their original country became independent, very often for having served France during one of its war or another. Furthermore, France still includes several territories like Tahiti, Nouvelle Calédonie, the French Carribeans, French Guyana, etc. where the population is "non white" in its majority, and this not due to immigration ...
Skeptic Tank is apparently not only bothered by people with another skin color:
It bothers me deeply to see the ancestral lands of my group being filled up with outsiders
So it seems he wants to go back to the times that all French were pure French, no outsiders, like in the times of Charlemagne:
Charlemagne’s exact birthplace is unknown, although historians have suggested Aachen in modern-day Germany, and Liège (Herstal) in present-day Belgium as possible locations
Oops, he was a German or a Belgian. But then his subjects, the Franks, were surely pure French? After all, that's where the name France comes from.
The Franks (Latin: Franci or gens Francorum) are historically first known as a group of Germanic tribes that roamed the land between the Lower and Middle Rhine in the 3rd century AD, and second as the people of Gaul who merged with the Gallo-Roman populations during succeeding centuries,
Oops, more German intruders. Guess we have to go back a bit more in history, to those Gallo-Roman times. E.g., during the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains:
The Battle of the Catalaunian Plains (or Fields), also called the Battle of Châlons or the Battle of Maurica,[4] took place in AD 451 between a coalition led by the Roman general Flavius Aetius and the Visigothic king Theodoric I against the Huns and their allies commanded by their leader Attila.
Those allies included the Burgundians (from the Danish island Bornholm) who went on to settle in the Provence, and Visigoths (from the Swedish island Gotland) who went on to settle in Southwest France (around Toulouse). And some of those Huns remained in France, witness the higher incidence of the "Mongolian spot" in the region around Chalons.

But those Gallo-Romans then at least were pure, original French? Obviously, the "Roman" component came from Italian immigrants. And the Gauls were Celts:
In addition, according to a theory proposed in the 19th century, the first people to adopt cultural characteristics regarded as Celtic were the people of the Iron Age Hallstatt culture in central Europe (c. 800–450 BC), named for the rich grave finds in Hallstatt, Austria.[5][6] Thus this area is sometimes called the 'Celtic homeland'.
Oops, apparently they came from Austria. But the people they replaced then were the pure, original French? No. But let's keep it short and reveal the undoubtedly original inhabitants of France:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Moustier:
Le Moustier is an archeological site consisting of two rock shelters in Saint-Léon-sur-Vézère, Dordogne, France. It is known for a fossilized skull of the species Homo neanderthalensis that was discovered in 1909. The Mousterian tool culture is named after Le Moustier, which was first excavated from 1863 by the Englishman Henry Christy and the Frenchman Édouard Lartet.
And as genetic studies have shown, the Cro Magnon who displaced them didn't just root them out, but first mixed with them; 3% of the genome of people with European ancestry is Neanderthal.

One can make a similar argument for literally any country. No country's population is some "pure" group free of outsiders, all are a mix due to migration, whether we're speaking of individual immigrants or migration of wholesale peoples like in the 5th C. migration period.

Deal with it, bigots.
 
Skeptic Tank is apparently not only bothered by people with another skin color ...

Yes, let's first start off by pretending I've said things I haven't about "purity" (hint: I've said nothing about it)

Next, let's pretend there is absolutely no difference between closely related varieties of Europeans jockeying for position, mixing with one another, etc. over the course of hundreds or thousands of years vs. people from entirely different regions with entirely different cultures, religions, traditions and traits pouring in by the millions over the course of a few decades, with much higher birth rates.

The pace matters, the quantity matters and the particulars of who is coming matter too.

The transformation South Korea would undergo if 15 million Chinese moved in over the course of 10 years would be substantial, and no one could fault South Koreans for objecting to such an influx. Even so, it would not be on the same order as the transformation if 80 million Guatemalans or Congolese came in over the course of 10 years, with an average birth rate of 5 children per woman.

The degree to which this would impact the nation of South Korea would be intimately tied to who was coming, how fast they were coming, and in what quantity. These things matter.

And since you brought up Neanderthals I'll repeat what I said earlier: despite their genetics still existing in much of humanity today, nobody denies that they are extinct as a people. If Europe is flooded with genetic outsiders with high birth rates then eventually Europeans will be reduced to a trace genetic element subsumed into that group's DNA. Europeans will be extinct.
 
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