Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[carbonjam72]

If you think Nadeau, Vogt, and Pisa jumped on the Mignini bandwagon because Ciolino blurted out that Amanda had never laid eyes on Rudy, then you are more unhinged than I thought. The thinking here baffles my mind. I was just reminded why I don't post here often. I was hopeful people here could begin to focus on reform so we could work to prevent wrongful convictions like this one in the future. Then I read this utter nonsense (which will no doubt end up in multiple pages of debate about this tired subject) and I quickly realize this forum discussion is a lost cause.

People here could do a lot of good if they would disconnect themselves from these circular arguments. Use the case as a learning tool. Fight for reform. Fight to hold prosecutors accountable for their actions.

But hey, forget about doing something positive. Vixen just said something ridiculous. It must be responded to right now! Hurry, get in your response before she posts again! And then respond to her next post and the one after that. Rinse and repeat. Vixen loves every second of it. She loves all of you. You give her everything she craves.

Hey, I am not immune to the Phil Connors syndrome. I debated these people for years. We won. That phase is over. Look at the bigger picture now. Learn from all of this. After researching this case, there is no doubt that you know wrongful convictions occur. Many other innocent people continue to suffer in prison. Help someone today. Help someone tomorrow.

Or keep riding the merry-go-round.

https://youtu.be/GZfj2Ir3GgQ

How can we help? What can we do?

 

[christianahannah]

Does anyone have proof that the following is true?

Police claimed Knox and Guede called each other on their cellphones before and after the murder. Guede didn’t have a cellphone with him that night, his lawyer revealed.

What and when is this cite?

My guess is this may be the call(s) days before and after Meredith's murder to and from(?)the guy (Francesco?) who was convicted on drug charges years after the murder. According to sources his (Francesco?) number was on Amanda's cell. Maybe this number was erroneously attributed to Rudy?

Sorry for the question marks but I haven't the name or exact facts to recall at the moment.

 

[Numbers]

If you think Nadeau, Vogt, and Pisa jumped on the Mignini bandwagon because Ciolino blurted out that Amanda had never laid eyes on Rudy, then you are more unhinged than I thought. The thinking here baffles my mind. I was just reminded why I don't post here often. I was hopeful people here could begin to focus on reform so we could work to prevent wrongful convictions like this one in the future. Then I read this utter nonsense (which will no doubt end up in multiple pages of debate about this tired subject) and I quickly realize this forum discussion is a lost cause.

People here could do a lot of good if they would disconnect themselves from these circular arguments. Use the case as a learning tool. Fight for reform. Fight to hold prosecutors accountable for their actions.

But hey, forget about doing something positive. Vixen just said something ridiculous. It must be responded to right now! Hurry, get in your response before she posts again! And then respond to her next post and the one after that. Rinse and repeat. Vixen loves every second of it. She loves all of you. You give her everything she craves.

Hey, I am not immune to the Phil Connors syndrome. I debated these people for years. We won. That phase is over. Look at the bigger picture now. Learn from all of this. After researching this case, there is no doubt that you know wrongful convictions occur. Many other innocent people continue to suffer in prison. Help someone today. Help someone tomorrow.

Or keep riding the merry-go-round.

https://youtu.be/GZfj2Ir3GgQ

Bruce,

Part of the issue with the "Groundhog Day" repetition on this thread is that it is focused on a particular case, rather than a general issue, such as miscarriages of justice and what could be done to prevent them.

Another part of the issue seems to be a kind of knee jerk stimulus-response behavior: Any inane false comment must be answered.

A more productive approach may be to pursue, as RW has done lately, the details of the misconduct of the Italian authorities in this case. Because when this case is viewed objectively in the future, it will be viewed as a classic case of official misconduct, Italian style.

 

[Kauffer]

This is a sad fact of life. We put far too much weight on a person's looks in many aspects. We won't elect a president if they don't look presidential. I don't mean unkempt either. We expect our presidents to be tall, handsome, and physically fit. What we really need is a person who has the intelligence to lead. The president is not the best example because we do want our leader to be in good shape. It gives the impression of a good work ethic. We also don't want the president to die in office. But we take it to far. Never mind policies, democrat, or republican, Joe Lieberman can never be president because he is short. That is a ridiculous reason to eliminate him from contention but it's just the reality of it all.

I know looks played a role in this case but I think the American accused of murder in a foreign country story line was the key to all of it. We had 3 nations involved. That will no doubt cause debate and debate brings attention.

It seems to me that what was particularly significant about the idea of Amanda Knox being wrongfully arrested, charged and provisionally convicted of murder, was that if "they" could do it to her, "they" could do it to anyone. She's not from an ethnic minority, she's not poor, uneducated, dysfunctional or unloved. She has no previous convictions and she learned a language to defend herself and benefitted from an unmatched attention paid to her case, which ultimately allowed her to write a book and pay the huge fees required to survive within a flawed process. The question here, rhetorically, is - if her too, then how many others less fortunate?

If people cannot get beyond her nationality and photo friendly appearance - if that was all that sustained their interest in the case, and now that she's free, they go off and find some other story with an eye candy element, merely for sport and titilation, then they will have failed in their humanity.

 

[Grinder]

What and when is this cite?

My guess is this may be the call(s) days before and after Meredith's murder to and from(?)the guy (Francesco?) who was convicted on drug charges years after the murder. According to sources his (Francesco?) number was on Amanda's cell. Maybe this number was erroneously attributed to Rudy?

Sorry for the question marks but I haven't the name or exact facts to recall at the moment.

Thanks for the reply. The quote comes from May of 2008 and I don't recall the police or Mignini making the claim. I may have forgotten. If anyone wishes to find the original it is simple top put the quote in Google and it will appear like magic.

I wanted to avoid making this a subjective exercise and was hoping for actual information as to whether anyone had a solid source.

I very much doubt Amanda was speaking with any drug dealer known at the time to her as being a drug dealer. Certainly she may a met or even known a guy that was or later dealt drugs. Whether or not Rudi had a phone at that time isn't clear but there is no proof she ever talked with him on the phone.

 

[Matthew Best]

She does suck me in. Admittedly.

The filthy slut.

 

[Methos]

What and when is this cite?

My guess is this may be the call(s) days before and after Meredith's murder to and from(?)the guy (Francesco?) who was convicted on drug charges years after the murder. According to sources his (Francesco?) number was on Amanda's cell. Maybe this number was erroneously attributed to Rudy?

Sorry for the question marks but I haven't the name or exact facts to recall at the moment.

This is from the Independent dated Nov 20, 2007

Investigators say Mr Guede left Perugia on the morning after the murder and went to Milan, where he was stopped by police but not detained. Detectives locked on to his mobile phone signal in Milan as recently as this weekend, but it then went dead. Amanda Knox made at least two calls to his number, one of them at 11am on 2 November, around the time police discovered Kercher's body.

I can't find an Italian source at the moment.
The problem with "the calls before and after the murder" is that they seem to be just another myth. AFAIK no one has been able to identify those mysterious calls in Amanda Knox's Phone Log. The original phone log is attached to the analysis table starting on page 8. At the top there are three numbers listed that were thought to be Guede's but weren't his.

It looks like the number of this "Frederico" was tapped because it was stored on Amanda Knox's phone. The number is blacked out in the two page police report so there is no way to check. (I'll have to come back to the supression of documents we talked about yesterday later but wouldn't it be nice if we had this number?).

 

[Dopre]

The sad truth is that many of these wrongfully convicted cases simply have no sex appeal for the masses. And this case did...in spades.

Much of the attention all of us have focused on this case, whether we wish to acknowledge it or not, stems from our fascination of an image we all succumb to. A pretty young woman, who by all accounts is a good person, and the juxtaposition of the evil seductress she was accused of being. We were riveted, and for many that need to occupy this part of our natural curiosity was stimulating. It truly exemplified the ultimate struggle between good and evil that by human nature we gravitate to. But it is, and feels as though it should be winding down.

I feel horrible that Bruce is here looking for help and all we can do is stand there looking helpless.

There are people less fortunate than Amanda who are withering away in a prison cell falsely accused while we debate and dissect this case to within an inch of its life. And when I read these obvious pleas for reflection and action by Bruce, I find myself feeling ashamed at myself for the frivolity of my continued fascination.

I do question why it is so hard to move on...even for myself. But I know with every ounce of my being that there are people just as deserving as Amanda who need help. I just hope some here can see that too and be willing to maybe try. There are so many here with so much to offer.

Amanda is free and we know she is grateful for her life. She seems to be determined to pay it forward too. Maybe we should consider doing the same?

 

[Ken Dine]

One night when the bar was slow, Patrick decided to close early. I texted Meredith, who said she'd meet me at the fountain by the Duomo, three minutes away. As I made my way through the mass of drunk students in Pizza IV Novembre, I saw two of our downstairs neighbors, Giacomo and Marco. Giacomo handed me a beer and I pushed my way through the crowd to find meredith. When we had rejoined the guys they introduced us to a friend...​

How does that quote change what I originally had posted about Amanda’s casual encounters with Guede?

This is what I originally had posted that you now disagree with:

That would depend on your definition of "MET"?

Amanda & Meredith did both go downstairs to the boys' apartment once while Guede was there, and perhaps one of the boys generally introduced both gals at that time, but there wasn't any evidence that I've seen which stated Amanda was actually introduced to Guede, or that she had ever talked to Guede at that time, or at any other time.

Once walking home from the bars Amanda & Meredith bumped into the boys and walked home with them, and Guede was with the boys, but Amanda & Meredith walked together and never interacted with Guede.

Amanda may have also seen Guede around town, but no one ever saw them speak to each other, and since they didn't share a common language, speaking together would be difficult even if they did want to talk.

Personally, I don't view Amanda's few encounters with Guede as ever having "met him" in the usual sense. To actually "meet" someone usually implies an introduction, perhaps a handshake, and after sharing a few pleasantries, usually a more meaningful exchange between them.

AGAIN, was there ever any meaningful exchange between Amanda & Guede, or did the extent of their pleasantries amount to a simple “CIAO" after Amanda had encountered Guede while he was hanging with the downstairs guys?

Regardless of whether they introduced him as Baron or Rudi, she had met him. They clearly called him by his nickname at times but are you sure it was always and since he didn't like it, he most likely would have let her know his real name.

The ‘Guilters’ claim that Amanda had “MET” and thus subsequently knew Guede well enough to plot a murder with him, and that is what I’m disputing here!

We can all agree that Amanda had bumped into Guede on several occasions prior to the murder, but there’s zero evidence that Amanda had ever talked with Guede during those few encounters.

At the time of the murder Amanda certainly knew of Guede (see my above original quote), but Amanda simply DID NOT KNOW Guede, nor did Amanda know anything personal ABOUT Guede since they had never truly ‘MET’ in the ordinary sense of the meaning!

Amanda was outgoing, so she likely passed by many people on the streets that she had never been formerly introduced to, and surely knew nothing about them, but if Amanda recognized people, then Amanda would likely have said “CIAO” when passing them by.

Merely saying “CIAO” to someone does NOT mean that you know them!

 

[christianahannah]

Thanks for the reply. The quote comes from May of 2008 and I don't recall the police or Mignini making the claim. I may have forgotten. If anyone wishes to find the original it is simple top put the quote in Google and it will appear like magic.

I wanted to avoid making this a subjective exercise and was hoping for actual information as to whether anyone had a solid source.

I very much doubt Amanda was speaking with any drug dealer known at the time to her as being a drug dealer. Certainly she may a met or even known a guy that was or later dealt drugs. Whether or not Rudi had a phone at that time isn't clear but there is no proof she ever talked with him on the phone.

No solid source for cell contact between Amanda and Rudy (I did Google your reference - still no solid source).

I assume nothing either way as to who or what Amanda knew about anyone she had contact with on her cell. Her log records show notes with Rudy's name at the top with brackets including numbers and the word "no" (among other notes and numbers). It is possible a reporter may have had access to these logs and erroneously connected various calls to Rudy and whispered their opinion amongst fellow reporters/people interested in the case.

I don't think anything was known early in the case about the drug guy who was later convicted but I may be wrong.

 

[Dougm]

The sad truth is that many of these wrongfully convicted cases simply have no sex appeal for the masses. And this case did...in spades.

Much of the attention all of us have focused on this case, whether we wish to acknowledge it or not, stems from our fascination of an image we all succumb to. A pretty young woman, who by all accounts is a good person, and the juxtaposition of the evil seductress she was accused of being. We were riveted, and for many that need to occupy this part of our natural curiosity was stimulating. It truly exemplified the ultimate struggle between good and evil that by human nature we gravitate to. But it is, and feels as though it should be winding down.

I feel horrible that Bruce is here looking for help and all we can do is stand there looking helpless.

There are people less fortunate than Amanda who are withering away in a prison cell falsely accused while we debate and dissect this case to within an inch of its life. And when I read these obvious pleas for reflection and action by Bruce, I find myself feeling ashamed at myself for the frivolity of my continued fascination.

I do question why it is so hard to move on...even for myself. But I know with every ounce of my being that there are people just as deserving as Amanda who need help. I just hope some here can see that too and be willing to maybe try. There are so many here with so much to offer.

Amanda is free and we know she is grateful for her life. She seems to be determined to pay it forward too. Maybe we should consider doing the same?

Maybe. Or maybe a few people chatting about a case for a few minutes is really not such a big deal. I support Bruce's idea that people should support other cases, but a handful of people discussing the case here is hardly an impediment to that, IMO.

 

[Bill Williams]

The sad truth is that many of these wrongfully convicted cases simply have no sex appeal for the masses. And this case did...in spades.

Much of the attention all of us have focused on this case, whether we wish to acknowledge it or not, stems from our fascination of an image we all succumb to. A pretty young woman, who by all accounts is a good person, and the juxtaposition of the evil seductress she was accused of being. We were riveted, and for many that need to occupy this part of our natural curiosity was stimulating. It truly exemplified the ultimate struggle between good and evil that by human nature we gravitate to. But it is, and feels as though it should be winding down.

I feel horrible that Bruce is here looking for help and all we can do is stand there looking helpless.

There are people less fortunate than Amanda who are withering away in a prison cell falsely accused while we debate and dissect this case to within an inch of its life. And when I read these obvious pleas for reflection and action by Bruce, I find myself feeling ashamed at myself for the frivolity of my continued fascination.

I do question why it is so hard to move on...even for myself. But I know with every ounce of my being that there are people just as deserving as Amanda who need help. I just hope some here can see that too and be willing to maybe try. There are so many here with so much to offer.

Amanda is free and we know she is grateful for her life. She seems to be determined to pay it forward too. Maybe we should consider doing the same?

Second thing first. Google "Mary Jane Veloso". Get involved with that. If the victimization of a migrant worker does not rile one, then what will? Temporarily spared execution in April in Indonesia, even her Philippine recruiters have turned themselves in to face the music in an attempt to permanently save her.

First thing second. True, it is bizarre that someone of Amanda's background would be confused as someone involved with this horrid thing. Yet that is also true of Raffaele. Where in any of their combined backgrounds are the touchpoints that someone like John Douglas speaks of?

That guilters had to exaggerate beyond all recognition manga comics, and a noise ticket in Seattle virtually proves they never had anything to suspect them to begin with.

But they had sex!! Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, that must explain it. College campuses worldwide must be war-zones.

Cue Vixen for the slut-shaming. Note the complete ignoring of Raffaele.

 

[Mr Fied]

The fact is, Mez was posed by her killers in an exact replication of a manga comic found at Raff's flat. It was her killers who introduced pervy sex into the murder.

It was Amanda herself who focused on her European sex fest. Even the seven-day "fairytale relationship" with Raff had Amanda being unfaithful a few times. It was Amanda who put the photo of the middle-aged drug dealer on the train onto the webpage, MySpace, and appeared to describe Rudy as the "most beautiful black guy I have ever seen".[/QUOTE]

The FACT is there is no proof Meredith's body had been moved.

Which comic was the exact replication in?

What pervy sex?

How many partners whilst in Italy on this European sex fest were on Amanda's list of sexual partners?

Who apart from you and Mach has ever claimed Amanda was describing Guede?

 

[christianahannah]

This is from the Independent dated Nov 20, 2007

I can't find an Italian source at the moment.
The problem with "the calls before and after the murder" is that they seem to be just another myth. AFAIK no one has been able to identify those mysterious calls in Amanda Knox's Phone Log. The original phone log is attached to the analysis table starting on page 8. At the top there are three numbers listed that were thought to be Guede's but weren't his.

It looks like the number of this "Frederico" was tapped because it was stored on Amanda Knox's phone. The number is blacked out in the two page police report so there is no way to check. (I'll have to come back to the supression of documents we talked about yesterday later but wouldn't it be nice if we had this number?).

I saw your comment after submitting mine. Amanda's cell logs were collected/deposited 15/11/07 so your linked report from the Independent - 20/11/07 may intertwine with my comment.

Frederico! Almost like Francesco but not quite. Thanks. And yes. It would be nice to have this number. I will try to source Italian documents to see if I can find early mention of Amanda/Rudy cell contact (which I do not believe happened).

 

[Dopre]

I certainly do not believe a handful of people discussing the case is bad. However, it certainly does feel as though Bruce is asking for help and there does seem to be a sense of resistance to doing so.

Carry on.

 

[Dopre]

Second thing first. Google "Mary Jane Veloso". Get involved with that. If the victimization of a migrant worker does not rile one, then what will? Temporarily spared execution in April in Indonesia, even her Philippine recruiters have turned themselves in to face the music in an attempt to permanently save her.

First thing second. True, it is bizarre that someone of Amanda's background would be confused as someone involved with this horrid thing. Yet that is also true of Raffaele. Where in any of their combined backgrounds are the touchpoints that someone like John Douglas speaks of?

That guilters had to exaggerate beyond all recognition manga comics, and a noise ticket in Seattle virtually proves they never had anything to suspect them to begin with.

But they had sex!! Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, that must explain it. College campuses worldwide must be war-zones.

Cue Vixen for the slut-shaming. Note the complete ignoring of Raffaele.

Agreed!

 

[Methos]

I saw your comment after submitting mine. Amanda's cell logs were collected/deposited 15/11/07 so your linked report from the Independent - 20/11/07 may intertwine with my comment.

Frederico! Almost like Francesco but not quite. Thanks. And yes. It would be nice to have this number. I will try to source Italian documents to see if I can find early mention of Amanda/Rudy cell contact (which I do not believe happened).

Thank you, the best Italian source for those early articles would be the Giornale dell'Umbria's archive. Sadly they have deleted everything case related prior December 2009 (I gave their trial membership a try in late 2012). Most of what the La Repubblica, La Stampa and La Nazione had is still available but I had no luck there so far.
The other thing is "Frederico's" family name. TJMK and PMF say that it is "Martini" and take it as a given, I wonder if there is an independent source for that, too?

 

[Methos]

Amanda herself told Mignini in her interview with him requested by her the blood was not there before the day of the murder.

IIRC (this is your common excuse for not providing a source, so it's just fine for me now) she just told him that the bathroom was clean. I'll stick with that for now...

Of course, ALL the housemates were suspects until eliminated. You can be sure if Filomena's blood was found mixed with Mez, we'd know about it.

Really?
The problem is, that finding "Filomena's blood DNA mixed with Mez", wasn't possible because they weren't able to identify Filomena without a reference sample, if they had one it would should have been listed here.

How come Amanda and Raff were never eliminated as suspects? Please don't say, "police conspiracy".

Tell me.

 

[Grinder]

How does that quote change what I originally had posted about Amanda’s casual encounters with Guede?

You asserted that saying she met Rudi was in question. Your approach was first to argue what "met" means. No one with any reasonableness argues they never met.

AGAIN, was there ever any meaningful exchange between Amanda & Guede, or did the extent of their pleasantries amount to a simple “CIAO" after Amanda had encountered Guede while he was hanging with the downstairs guys?

They went to the boys' flat and smoked and hung out. Did Rudi or Amanda say more than Ciao? I don't know but IIRC they made some small talk. Of course this has nothing to do with the fact that they met. Amanda says they met. The boys say they met. Rudi says they met.

The ‘Guilters’ claim that Amanda had “MET” and thus subsequently knew Guede well enough to plot a murder with him, and that is what I’m disputing here!

I see. You set up a straw man. I said that early claims of supporters was that Amanda and Rudi had never met and when it became clear they had that was not good for Amanda. You deny they met because of some PG claim that I never made. They met, period.

We can all agree that Amanda had bumped into Guede on several occasions prior to the murder, but there’s zero evidence that Amanda had ever talked with Guede during those few encounters.

And there is no evidence that they didn't.

At the time of the murder Amanda certainly knew of Guede (see my above original quote), but Amanda simply DID NOT KNOW Guede, nor did Amanda know anything personal ABOUT Guede since they had never truly ‘MET’ in the ordinary sense of the meaning!

They had "met". Not only did they see each other they were introduced.

Amanda was outgoing, so she likely passed by many people on the streets that she had never been formerly introduced to, and surely knew nothing about them, but if Amanda recognized people, then Amanda would likely have said “CIAO” when passing them by.

Merely saying “CIAO” to someone does NOT mean that you know them!

She was formally introduced and I guess formerly as well.

 

[Grinder]

No solid source for cell contact between Amanda and Rudy (I did Google your reference - still no solid source).

I assume nothing either way as to who or what Amanda knew about anyone she had contact with on her cell. Her log records show notes with Rudy's name at the top with brackets including numbers and the word "no" (among other notes and numbers). It is possible a reporter may have had access to these logs and erroneously connected various calls to Rudy and whispered their opinion amongst fellow reporters/people interested in the case.

I don't think anything was known early in the case about the drug guy who was later convicted but I may be wrong.

To be clear, I don't believe there ever was any electronic connection between Amanda and Rudi. My question is did the PLE ever make that claim? I'm not talking about an unnamed source.

To me if a reporter says the police claim she had cell calls with Rudi that it should be true or at a minimum stated that this a leak or from unnamed sources.