Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[carbonjam72]

There is no 'right of speculation' to besmirch other's good names

I think Vixen thinks it goads us. I personally don't care about AK. She could be the psychopath narcissist Machiavelli swears she is for all it matters, doesn't change the fact that Meredith was self evidently killed and raped by Rudy Guede.

I know you don't mean it, but this is actually one of the things about this case that really stands out for me.

It's just not true. It couldn't be true, and its not true. Get it?

The people at the center of the allegations, Amanda and Raf, are about the nicest people you could ever hope to run into.

The lies told by the prosecutor, and the amoral profiteering of the press in creating an appearance of "doubt" as to their characters, solely to generate fake controversy just to sell their wares, which stuck for many people, is one of the enduring challenges this case leaves behind.

How can the prosecutor and the amoral profit seeking tabloids and all their authors like Vogt, Nadeau and Pisa, and Winterbottom, be deprived of every last cent and/or professional benefit they have engendered through their sustained slanders?

How easy it is to tarnish a person's reputation, and having done so, how easy it is to just walk away after having been proven wrong on every count. Shouldn't society do something about that?

 

[Bill Williams]

LMAO. Excuse me for laughing Ken, but I have had many, many, many similar exchanges over this with Grinder although the argument was focused on if Amanda "knew" Rudy. I have always said that while Amanda "knew of" Rudy she in fact did not "know" Rudy. Even the Bible suggest that "knowing" someone means to have had several with them.

But I've been on that Merry Go Round (Carousel to all you Brits) with Grinder all too many times.

Make no mistake, Grinder is solid innocentisti.

Yet he tries to chart a course seemingly independent of early FOA. Nothing wrong with that, esp. when one considers that all this is over.

Still it leads to rather silly shades of grey over what "meeting" someone means. Grinder is intent on using such things to mark off a distance where he can then say early FOA was broadcasting what amounts to false information.

At this point, so what? Me, I'm gradually caving in to my boss, Bruce Fischer, that there's no real point in keeping this going.

 

[Dougm]

There is no question about that.

But this is a subject that interests me a great deal. Why do some people engage in trying to make women feel ashamed of being interested in sex? Amanda's number of secular partners was not outrageous and who hasn't had a one night stand? So why make a big deal about it in this case?

Frankly, I'm not very interested in arguing the case any more, but the social phenomenon interests me greatly. Why do people come to this forum now that the case is over? What drew them to the case in the first place? Bruce is not wrong about this being a little bizarre

I fully admit that if Amanda hadn't been the pretty girl next door my interest probably would not have been as strong. I also know that the world wide slut shaming drew me in as I think that there is this unhealthy double standard toward male/female interests in sex. Why? And shouldn't that be a relic of the past?

I'm really not interested in Amanda except to hope she has a fulfilling and happy life. I'm afraid that she won't be able to put this behind her. I might suggest that she doesn't try since it might be impossible. That like it or not, this will follow her forever. She is a modern day Hester Prynne. And possibly like Hester, turning her back on it may not be the answer.

I think what is widely misunderstood is that, for most supporters, the "girl next door" piece resonates much more than the "pretty girl" piece. Amanda herself wrote that she was perplexed by the facination with her looks, and I have not met any supporter who is panting over her. But the idea that the authorities, in any country, could make up a case against an ordinary young woman who had done nothing wrong, and charge her with murder, is what pulled many people in, IMO.

The guilters love to make fun of supporters for rushing to the defense of Amanda against anyone that criticizes her, but the truth is, in most of those cases, they are criticizing her using made up facts.

If the authorities can pick out the person they think is acting odd, or who they don't like for some reason, and charge them with a crime, we live in a world I don't want to live in. Of course they can do that, and they do, but this case pointed that out to many people who probably were not aware of that.

 

[Dougm]

This faux "Europe is not like you racist Americans" BS is just that. It was Mignini that made the big deal about Patrick, arresting him in the wee hours with little to no evidence he was involved. He also came up with the theory that Rudy, the poor, helpless black guy, was easily manipulated by Amanda because he could not resist the charms of the tempting white woman.

Do you know that something like 75% of the people in Italian jails are immigrants, many of those people of color? The idea that the Italians are not racist while people in the US are is a joke.

Yes, America has a history of slavery, racial segregation, etc. And you know who the people are behind that? White Europeans.

Rudy is no more or less guilty because of his race or skin color. He is guilty because the evidence says so.

One correction to this post of mine. I said "something like 75% of the people in Italian jails are immigrants", because I knew it was a high number, but did not have time to look up the exact number. It's actually closer to 40%, if we are to believe this story:

http://www1.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/CultureAndMedia/?id=1.0.2114309116

The point remains -- there is this meme that people who support Amanda and Raffaele are all US racists who want to pin the murder on a black person. The truth is, there are racists all over the world, and to present Italy, and especially the Perusian authorities, as bastions of racial fairness is a farce.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Make no mistake, Grinder is solid innocentisti.

Yet he tries to chart a course seemingly independent of early FOA. Nothing wrong with that, esp. when one considers that all this is over.

Still it leads to rather silly shades of grey over what "meeting" someone means. Grinder is intent on using such things to mark off a distance where he can then say early FOA was broadcasting what amounts to false information.

At this point, so what? Me, I'm gradually caving in to my boss, Bruce Fischer, that there's no real point in keeping this going.

It all stems from Paul Ciolino saying that Amanda "never laid eyes on" Guede. Far too much has been made about it online.

I have been in the same room with Grinder. I laid eyes on him. I socialized with people he socialized with. It doesn't mean I have ever met him. It's a very similar senario if you ask me.

 

[Vixen]

Nope, I claimed wrote that the "forensic cops" as you call them, weren't able to identify mixed DNA of Meredith Kercher and the other housemates even if they wanted to. Just because they didn't mind to ask the "other housemates" for a sample... For whatever reason...


Nice try to build up a strawman to knock down. The (still standing and not refuted point) about the mixed DNA is: "Amanda lived there, so of course her DNA and/or blood was mixed with the murder victim('s)".on the night of the murder." Barbie's statement about the mixed blood here is ridiculous. Who claimed that the DNA was mixed on the night of the murder anyway? There is a video showing how some of those traces got mixed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APLa0lBfTLo


See answer to first quote...

No.

Amanda herself told Mignini in her interview with him requested by her the blood was not there before the day of the murder.

Of course, ALL the housemates were suspects until eliminated. You can be sure if Filomena's blood was found mixed with Mez, we'd know about it.

How come Amanda and Raff were never eliminated as suspects? Please don't say, "police conspiracy".

 

[Vixen]

This faux "Europe is not like you racist Americans" BS is just that. It was Mignini that made the big deal about Patrick, arresting him in the wee hours with little to no evidence he was involved. He also came up with the theory that Rudy, the poor, helpless black guy, was easily manipulated by Amanda because he could not resist the charms of the tempting white woman.

Do you know that something like 75% of the people in Italian jails are immigrants, many of those people of color? The idea that the Italians are not racist while people in the US are is a joke.

Yes, America has a history of slavery, racial segregation, etc. And you know who the people are behind that? White Europeans.

Rudy is no more or less guilty because of his race or skin color. He is guilty because the evidence says so.

Mignini and his cops took the crime seriously. That's why they arrested Patrick when Amanda "confessed" she took him to the house and witnessed him raping and killing Mez.

Reality check.

 

[Kauffer]

Mignini and his cops took the crime seriously. That's why they arrested Patrick when Amanda "confessed" she took him to the house and witnessed him raping and killing Mez.

Reality check.

You mean when she told them what they already "knew" to be "true". Then why did they not release Lumumba before the Matteini hearings when DNA evidence proved that he had not raped Kerchers? Why did Mignini withold evidence from the court?

 

[Vixen]

This is the article to which you refer:

Article 3 – Prohibition of torture

"No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
The jurisprudence for this has developed over the years, so we are not here talking about the use of racks and disembowelling. Inhuman and degrading treatment manifests itself in numerous ways.

Being hit by a police officer in a lawyerless interrogation certainly counts, but much more besides.

In the UK, the imposition of whole life sentences for prisoners, without hope of early release or parole, comes under this article.

Did Amanda, Raff and Rudy allow Mez a bathroom break? They didn't just box her ears, they brutally butchered her after prolonged hazing (47 wounds). Amanda pins blame on Patrick and we're all supposed to have bleeding hearts that police slapped a calunnia charge on her. My, my.

 

[Vixen]

You mean when she told them what they already "knew" to be "true". Then why did they not release Lumumba before the Matteini hearings when DNA evidence proved that he had not raped Kerchers? Why did Mignini withold evidence from the court?

Are you quoting from her book? If so = logical fallacy. Full stop. Period.

 

[Bill Williams]

This faux "Europe is not like you racist Americans" BS is just that. It was Mignini that made the big deal about Patrick, arresting him in the wee hours with little to no evidence he was involved. He also came up with the theory that Rudy, the poor, helpless black guy, was easily manipulated by Amanda because he could not resist the charms of the tempting white woman.

Do you know that something like 75% of the people in Italian jails are immigrants, many of those people of color? The idea that the Italians are not racist while people in the US are is a joke.

Yes, America has a history of slavery, racial segregation, etc. And you know who the people are behind that? White Europeans.

Rudy is no more or less guilty because of his race or skin color. He is guilty because the evidence says so.

Mignini and his cops took the crime seriously. That's why they arrested Patrick when Amanda "confessed" she took him to the house and witnessed him raping and killing Mez.

Reality check.

You mean when she told them what they already "knew" to be "true". Then why did they not release Lumumba before the Matteini hearings when DNA evidence proved that he had not raped Kerchers? Why did Mignini withold evidence from the court?

Vixen's reality cheque just bounced.

John Follain in his book, "A Death in Italy," doesn't even bother to hide Mignini's buffoonery. On one page, Mignini is cited as calling Amanda a liar and an actress.

Very next page? Mignini says they had to arrest Lumumba, "because Amanda accused him."

Let's also see if someone can spot the error in Vixen's description of the "confession".

One thing is for sure - Vixen will not address the issue of the appeal to ECHR, using Article 3 as grounds, the issue Vixen completely misrepresented. She'll instead just keep typing out the factoids.

 

[Bill Williams]

Did Amanda, Raff and Rudy allow Mez a bathroom break? They didn't just box her ears, they brutally butchered her after prolonged hazing (47 wounds). Amanda pins blame on Rudy and we're all supposed to have bleeding hearts that police slapped a calunnia charge on her. My, my.

This is a defamatory posting.

 

[Kauffer]

Amanda herself told Mignini in her interview with him requested by her the blood was not there before the day of the murder.

Of course, ALL the housemates were suspects until eliminated. You can be sure if Filomena's blood was found mixed with Mez, we'd know about it.

How come Amanda and Raff were never eliminated as suspects? Please don't say, "police conspiracy".

If Amanda's blood was relevant to the murder - as in that her bleeding was caused by a struggle with Kercher, then she would have bled in the room. No trace of Amanda was found in the room and in particular on Kercher's body.

If Amanda bled as a result of her committing the murder, she would have hardly speculated that her blood was not in the bathroom before the murder took place.

Similarly, what benefit to her accrued from naming Lumumba? It couldn't help her at all. If she were guilty she would have stayed quiet - what else would a cold hearted, sociopathic, manipulating rage killer do? Why would she get herself arrested? According to you, she was not even a suspect, so what's her strategy?

 

[Bill Williams]

Amanda herself told Mignini in her interview with him requested by her the blood was not there before the day of the murder.

Of course, ALL the housemates were suspects until eliminated. You can be sure if Filomena's blood was found mixed with Mez, we'd know about it.

How come Amanda and Raff were never eliminated as suspects? Please don't say, "police conspiracy".

Sigh.

There was no mixed blood of any two people. Why do you continue with these lies?

 

[Kauffer]

Did Amanda, Raff and Rudy allow Mez a bathroom break? They didn't just box her ears, they brutally butchered her after prolonged hazing (47 wounds). Amanda pins blame on Patrick and we're all supposed to have bleeding hearts that police slapped a calunnia charge on her. My, my.

Again....what was her strategy in placing herself at the crime scene and implicating an innocent man, when you say she wasn't even a suspect?

 

[Kauffer]

Are you quoting from her book? If so = logical fallacy. Full stop. Period.

What? I'm not quoting her book. What's the logical fallacy exactly?

 

[Kauffer]

Did Amanda, Raff and Rudy allow Mez a bathroom break? They didn't just box her ears, they brutally butchered her after prolonged hazing (47 wounds). Amanda pins blame on Patrick and we're all supposed to have bleeding hearts that police slapped a calunnia charge on her. My, my.

Amanda and Raffaele have been found not guilty, so your nonsense is a waste of time. The ECHR application however is indefensible by Italy, because the police say they have no record of the interrogation and nor were they investigated for their conduct.

 

[Vixen]

Yes. Yes they will. Italy is going through the motions in some sort of sick face-saving attempt. It is unquestionable that no verdict on these charges will be definitively confirmed by the ISC by the time the SoL expires. So in a judicial sense, this whole thing is a moot farce.

And, incidentally, while I believe that a) in any sort of rational world, there is zero way that these charges against Knox can ever be proven to the standard of conviction; b) Knox is factually innocent of the charges; and c) despite (a) and (b), it's not unlikely that Knox will be found guilty (until the charges expire and she is acquitted under the SoL....

....the question of Knox's guilt/non-guilt/innocence of these charges can be viewed separately from the farcical way in which Italian courts routinely fall foul of the statute of limitations. That's simply no way to administer and apply justice. It's just one more example of how horribly broken the Italian criminal justice system is, and how much it desperately needs root-and-branch reform (including a swathe of new legislation) in order to become in any way fit for purpose. It's a disgrace for a country that would like to think of itself as a major industrialised liberal democracy.

And what's in it for you, LJ? Perhaps one day Amanda will thank you personally and bestow all her charms on you, like you're some kinda Sir Gallahad? NOT_!

 

[Planigale]

Mignini and his cops took the crime seriously. That's why they arrested Patrick when Amanda "confessed" she took him to the house and witnessed him raping and killing Mez.

Reality check.

Not true.

Please find any quotation where Knox ever said she saw Patrick 'raping and killing' Kercher.

You have an unbelievable level of ignorance on which you base your opinion.

I find your complete alienation from reality reassuring, it is not as if you base your opinion on this case on anything other than fantasy. You just jump from one lie to another. If the best case for guilt is serial error you are doing a sterling job of supporting the case for innocence.

 

[Vixen]

Ok, sorry Vixen. I get it. Yes, Bruce Fischer is my leader. It's been a while since anyone used that, so it slipped by.

Yes, you got me on that one.

You guys need a leader, or you are lost. You know, I actually feel sorry for Brucie, when I look at his flock. Uphill struggle. I can feel his despair.