Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Numbers]

Primate-specific enzyme, eh? Well, I've got to ask so as to leave no stone unturned and make sure Stefanoni doesn't come up with a "look, squirrel" explanation. Did any of the guys downstairs own a monkey?

A technical correction of my error:
It is the primer that is primate-specific, and not the polymerase enzyme.

The primer is the bit of synthetic DNA that binds to the single-stranded DNA. The polymerase acts on the combined primer DNA - target locus STR DNA double strand to produce copies of that STR locus.

Thanks to Chris H. for the correction.

 

[Strozzi]

In his Skype conversation it is clear that some reports had "sperm" found and Rudi vehemently denies it is his. I forget which Skype it was but I think it was the one on YouTube. My point is that Rudi was/is good at covering with stories and he had plenty of time for this one.

It is on the YouTube and he says "that it is all crap what they say about finding sperm male sperm..."

He also says they just did oral. Giacomo brings up the "findings" in challenging Rudi to say more.

This line of questioning raises the question: Why ask him this stuff if they were trying to minimize his involvement? This is the 19th of November well after many here think they were minimizing his involvement IIUC.

To answer your question, one would need to know which police officers were sitting with Giacomo when Rudi or Giacomo started discussing the semen issue and also how well they controlled Giacomo during the Skype conversations. Perhaps the police officers present were not themselves trying to minimize Rudi's involvement. That may have been more of a prosecutor strategy to emphasize how evil and culpable Amanda and Raffaele are by minimizing Rudi's involvement and also to avoid presenting evidence that might give the defense opportunities to say that Amanda and Raffaele were not there.

If Stefanoni had in fact tested the semen and matched it to Rudi, would the prosecution want the court to know what Rudi did over a dying Meredith and that he is indeed a foul man? Would you want the court to know that if you are trying to claim that Amanda and Raffaele were with him or that Amanda, indeed, led him?

 

[Desert Fox]

It could just be that Stefanoni is a moron and lost the sample. Think about the blood sample of "Mr Bojangles" with the West Memphis Three.

 

[Diocletus]

Here's what I'm thinking on the semen vs. hand cut issues in the Skype conversations. Nothing really new here, but this is how it ties together for me.

1) Rudy knew that he had cut his hand and bled, and that this would be found out by any competent CSI, so he makes up and volunteers an innocent story to cover up: some other guy cut me when I was doing good things.

2) Rudy has read a newspaper article, and knows that CSI is looking at semen. Unbeknownst to Rudy, what the cops are actually looking at are the results of a rape kit, which in fact are negative for semen (as far as we know, not having the full results). Rudy, however, assumes that CSI would have found and are examining the big stain that he left on the pillowcase, right between the dead/dying victim's legs, a stain, which under the circumstances, is impossible to innocently explain. So, prompted for an answer about semen, he has only two choices: 1) admit that the stain was his, an admission that, given the circumstances, is immediately incriminating, or 2) deny that the stain is his, a denial that is self-serving short term and long-term can't really hurt him if subsequently disproved because at that point he's already caught. Turns out for Rudy, that his denial never was disproved, because CSI not only didn't discover the stain that Rudy was worried about, but when it was discovered, CSI peculiarly refused to test it.

So, for me, the difference between the two issues is that the blood is susceptible to a believable (by those among us who are credulous of such things) cover story, whereas there is no innocent explanation for the semen, because it was impossible to concoct a story to establish the innocent presence of semen between the legs of the dead/dying victim. Rudy had nothing to lose by his denial, and short term, maybe felt that he was deflecting.

 

[carbonjam72]

Here's what I'm thinking on the semen vs. hand cut issues in the Skype conversations. Nothing really new here, but this is how it ties together for me.

1) Rudy knew that he had cut his hand and bled, and that this would be found out by any competent CSI, so he makes up and volunteers an innocent story to cover up: some other guy cut me when I was doing good things.

2) Rudy has read a newspaper article, and knows that CSI is looking at semen. Unbeknownst to Rudy, what the cops are actually looking at are the results of a rape kit, which in fact are negative for semen (as far as we know, not having the full results). Rudy, however, assumes that CSI would have found and are examining the big stain that he left on the pillowcase, right between the dead/dying victim's legs, a stain, which under the circumstances, is impossible to innocently explain. So, prompted for an answer about semen, he has only two choices: 1) admit that the stain was his, an admission that, given the circumstances, is immediately incriminating, or 2) deny that the stain is his, a denial that is self-serving short term and long-term can't really hurt him if subsequently disproved because at that point he's already caught. Turns out for Rudy, that his denial never was disproved, because CSI not only didn't discover the stain that Rudy was worried about, but when it was discovered, CSI peculiarly refused to test it.

So, for me, the difference between the two issues is that the blood is susceptible to a believable (by those among us who are credulous of such things) cover story, whereas there is no innocent explanation for the semen, because it was impossible to concoct a story to establish the innocent presence of semen between the legs of the dead/dying victim. Rudy had nothing to lose by his denial, and short term, maybe felt that he was deflecting.

I don't have the text of any article or report Rudy might have seen, or the language used during the skype call, but if Rudy believed the question of semen only related to what was found inside Meredith's body, then he knew his claim that "it wasn't mine" would be true.

Rudy admitted to having intimate contact with Meredith, he claims consensually, but seems not terribly aware of the fact that such contact would leave his DNA behind.

I think Rudy's attention wasn't directed to the semen stain outside the body, and that he was only responding to what he believed would be any semen found inside Meredith, which he knew would not be his.

The problem here, is that there are several versions of what was found, by whom, when, and what was done with it.

A "presumed semen stain" was found by Stefanoni and discussed in the Nov 3 crime scene video, and apparently reported in the press a few days later. Yet the results of any such tests, if performed, were never disclosed to the defense. And the existence of the stain was again "re-discovered" by the defense, yet never allowed to be formally tested as part of the trial.

Which version Rudy was responding to seems tied to the former. There's no reason Rudy's statement must be interpreted as him having the stain outside the body in mind when he denied the semen was his.

 

[Diocletus]

There's no reason Rudy's statement must be interpreted as him having the stain outside the body in mind when he denied the semen was his.

Yes there is. He knew that he didn't leave one inside, but did leave one outside. Therefore, if he knew that the police were examining semen, he had to assume that it was the outside stain. Otherwise, you have him disregarding the large stain outside, in favor of an inside trace that as far as he knew wasn't even there.

Now, I'll admit that if he thought they were examining the inside trace, then it was easy for him to deny because he knew he didn't leave one there. That said, it's not explainable why he would assume that they were referring to an inside trace when he knew there was a big stain right outside.

 

[Grinder]

But then, Guede's killing and raping Meredith really made no sense either.

Yes but his stories covered his acts. Blond Italian is probably the equivalent of black man with an Afro.

 

[Grinder]

I don't think there was a story about semen for him to have read.

And then, we saw each other at Meredith's house and we started talking...we started talking, and I, well, I tried, I mean I made a pass at her and she was willing [ci stava]. But in the end we didn't do anything because...she didn't have any condoms and neither did I.
GB:
Like...in the newspapers it says that...well, you must have done something with her if...
RG:
Yes but in fact, I'm telling you we did just ...oral stuff. Nothing, no penetration, because I didn't have a condom, we didn't do anything. And so it's all crap according to me that they said they found my...sperm...male sperm. Then I, that... it's not mine because we didn't do anything.
RG:
When we got there, I don't know what happened, but she said "damn".

​

 

[Grinder]

Based on the table provided in your cite, blood was reported on the particular items you list (which are detailed in the table).

Once again we have a stretch. The AKC page doesn't say these items tested positive for blood.

2. Undisclosed Testing (Post Batch 2)

quantification report p47
Quantification Report p47 – Reference profiles quantified Nov 6, 2007
On November 16, the police, on a tip, broke into Rudy Guede’s apartment and seized 5 items bearing Field Nos. A, B, C, D and E, most of which had apparent blood on them. Of these items, Field No. B (a green toothbrush) has been designated as Rep. 58, which corresponds with an analysis date immediately following the completion of Batch 2 on November 14.

Blood on the toothbrush?

 

[Diocletus]

And then, we saw each other at Meredith's house and we started talking...we started talking, and I, well, I tried, I mean I made a pass at her and she was willing [ci stava]. But in the end we didn't do anything because...she didn't have any condoms and neither did I.
GB:
Like...in the newspapers it says that...well, you must have done something with her if...
RG:
Yes but in fact, I'm telling you we did just ...oral stuff. Nothing, no penetration, because I didn't have a condom, we didn't do anything. And so it's all crap according to me that they said they found my...sperm...male sperm. Then I, that... it's not mine because we didn't do anything.
RG:
When we got there, I don't know what happened, but she said "damn".

​

Well, yeah, but in the meantime, Methos identified the article (la republicca, 6 Nov. 2007) yesterday.

 

[Grinder]

Well, yeah, but in the meantime, Methos identified the article (la republicca, 6 Nov. 2007) yesterday.

yeah saw after I posted but the interchange makes clear that semen was in the media by then.

ETA - Many stories have disappeared by now.

 

[carbonjam72]

Yes there is. He knew that he didn't leave one inside, but did leave one outside. Therefore, if he knew that the police were examining semen, he had to assume that it was the outside stain. Otherwise, you have him disregarding the large stain outside, in favor of an inside trace that as far as he knew wasn't even there.

Now, I'll admit that if he thought they were examining the inside trace, then it was easy for him to deny because he knew he didn't leave one there. That said, it's not explainable why he would assume that they were referring to an inside trace when he knew there was a big stain right outside.

Well yeah, I'm trying to imagine what Rudy could have been thinking by denying he left semen at the scene, when it's obvious he did.

But how could he explain the semen stain he did leave, where he left it, as a result of consensual activity? Rudy only admitted this fact to his prison friends, if you believe their accounts.

 

[Diocletus]

Well yeah, I'm trying to imagine what Rudy could have been thinking by denying he left semen at the scene, when it's obvious he did.

But how could he explain the semen stain he did leave, where he left it, as a result of consensual activity? Rudy only admitted this fact to his prison friends, if you believe their accounts.

His actual semen stain is not explainable as an innocent act.

It's as if he left his knife sticking out of Kercher's throat. He's never going to say "yeah, that's my knife." He's going to say "nope, never seen that knife before," and put the prosecution to the test of proving him wrong. That's what he did with the semen, because he knew very well that what he had left cannot be explained away as an innocent act.

 

[Grinder]

His actual semen stain is not explainable as an innocent act.

It's as if he left his knife sticking out of Kercher's throat. He's never going to say "yeah, that's my knife." He's going to say "nope, never seen that knife before," and put the prosecution to the test of proving him wrong. That's what he did with the semen, because he knew very well that what he had left cannot be explained away as an innocent act.

Why couldn't he have said that they were fooling around and Meredith was touching him and he became aroused. She went to look for one of Amanda's condoms and he had an ejaculation while she was gone while lying on the bed or if he knew it was the pillow say the pillow.

Semen isn't a murder weapon.

 

[Ken Dine]

His actual semen stain is not explainable as an innocent act.

It's as if he left his knife sticking out of Kercher's throat. He's never going to say "yeah, that's my knife." He's going to say "nope, never seen that knife before," and put the prosecution to the test of proving him wrong. That's what he did with the semen, because he knew very well that what he had left cannot be explained away as an innocent act.

Even though it would have been an obviously lame attempt, if Guede's semen stain on Meredith's pillow came out as evidence against him, then surely Guede would have been forced to TRY and explain it away as an innocent result of their consensual sexual relations.

Indeed, didn't Massei rule in denying the defense request to test the stain that the semen stain could have been innocently left on her pillow by her boyfriend?

Guede's Fast-Track trial was essentially a plea bargain, which allowed Guede to avoid dealing with a lot of the evidence against him.

It was probably made clear to Guede's lawyer that should Guede go to a full trial on the matter, that the prosecution would then use that semen stained pillow against Guede to prove that he had raped Meredith after stabbing her.

Based upon Guede's DNA on Meredith's purse, the prosecution likely also threatened Guede with theft, which would have likely enhanced Guede's punishment.

Guede's Fast-Track trial allowed both Guede and the prosecution to avoid a lot of incriminating evidence which would have proved that Guede was the main (or ONLY) antagonist in Meredith's murder, thus allowing both Guede's lawyer and the prosecution to paint Guede as a minor bit player in Meredith's murder, with Amanda assuming the role as the main antagonist.

Guede would have been a fool to turn down the Fast Track trial that had been arranged for him.

 

[Numbers]

Once again we have a stretch. The AKC page doesn't say these items tested positive for blood.

2. Undisclosed Testing (Post Batch 2)

quantification report p47
Quantification Report p47 – Reference profiles quantified Nov 6, 2007
On November 16, the police, on a tip, broke into Rudy Guede’s apartment and seized 5 items bearing Field Nos. A, B, C, D and E, most of which had apparent blood on them. Of these items, Field No. B (a green toothbrush) has been designated as Rep. 58, which corresponds with an analysis date immediately following the completion of Batch 2 on November 14.

Blood on the toothbrush?

Grinder,

Please examine the site:

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/guede-dna-investigation/

There is a table of DNA and other forensic results, summarized from what Stefanoni disclosed, located after the text of the site, titled: The Guede Investigation.

One column of that table is labeled "Blood". If blood was reported for an item by Stefanoni, a plus sign and red color is present in that row. In one case, the result is shown as a question mark and red color, because of uncertainty. There are no red colors or plus signs for the toothbrush tests in the "Blood" column. If one looks toward the end of the table, at Rep 222, there is an item in that row called "Adidas Socks" which also has a plus sign and red color in the "Blood" column.

I hope the above information is helpful.

ETA: Guede's belt, Rep 205 in the table, also showed blood. DNA profile results for the belt and for the Adidas socks were not reported, so it is unknown whose blood was present. It could be Kercher's, because Stefanoni and the prosecution were clearly suppressing evidence implicating Guede in the attack on Meredith Kercher apparently in order to maintain the false case against Knox and Sollecito.

 

[Strozzi]

Well yeah, I'm trying to imagine what Rudy could have been thinking by denying he left semen at the scene, when it's obvious he did.

But how could he explain the semen stain he did leave, where he left it, as a result of consensual activity? Rudy only admitted this fact to his prison friends, if you believe their accounts.

Rudi may not have remembered in his violent attack what he did moment by moment. He may not have remembered a week later that he left semen and might have to account for it. He certainly did not remember at the time that he left his sample in the toilet, or he would have flushed before leaving the cottage. People engaging in grotesque crimes may not be completely aware of what they did in the frenzy of the moment.

 

[Kauffer]

Why couldn't he have said that they were fooling around and Meredith was touching him and he became aroused. She went to look for one of Amanda's condoms and he had an ejaculation while she was gone while lying on the bed or if he knew it was the pillow say the pillow.

Semen isn't a murder weapon.

Rudi may not have remembered in his violent attack what he did moment by moment. He may not remember that he left semen. He certainly did not remember at the time that he left his sample in the toilet, or he would have flushed before leaving the cottage. People engaging in grotesque crimes may not be completely aware of what they are doing in the frenzy, moment by moment.

Strozzi may well be right about this. Guede might not have remembered much at all, though his story about the condoms is clearly false - we know that Kercher knew where Amanda's condoms were. He may even have convinced himself of the truth of his own story - invented a fantasy which he genuinely believed. I doubt that Guede is a calculating genius. Certainly the act of masturbating over a bleeding, dying girl he's just brutally stabbed is the product of an extraordinary perversity and there is no guarantee that he retained an awareness of it. Alternatively, it is not a stretch to imagine that Guede would instinctively recoil in any case from admitting he ejaculated, whether he remembered it or not. If he did remember it, he would likely have believed it to be incriminating.

 

[davefoc]

Even though it would have been an obviously lame attempt, if Guede's semen stain on Meredith's pillow came out as evidence against him, then surely Guede would have been forced to TRY and explain it away as an innocent result of their consensual sexual relations.

Indeed, didn't Massei rule in denying the defense request to test the stain that the semen stain could have been innocently left on her pillow by her boyfriend?

Guede's Fast-Track trial was essentially a plea bargain, which allowed Guede to avoid dealing with a lot of the evidence against him.

It was probably made clear to Guede's lawyer that should Guede go to a full trial on the matter, that the prosecution would then use that semen stained pillow against Guede to prove that he had raped Meredith after stabbing her.

Based upon Guede's DNA on Meredith's purse, the prosecution likely also threatened Guede with theft, which would have likely enhanced Guede's punishment.

Guede's Fast-Track trial allowed both Guede and the prosecution to avoid a lot of incriminating evidence which would have proved that Guede was the main (or ONLY) antagonist in Meredith's murder, thus allowing both Guede's lawyer and the prosecution to paint Guede as a minor bit player in Meredith's murder, with Amanda assuming the role as the main antagonist.

Guede would have been a fool to turn down the Fast Track trial that had been arranged for him.

For me, this is the probable situation and a possible explanation for the miscellaneous suppression of evidence against Guede. Mignini didn't want additional evidence against Guede for various reasons.
1. It could be used to suggest that the prosecution of Guede was poorly done and if the facts were known, it would look like Mignini gave a horrible killer of the most despicable kind a better deal than he deserved.
2. There may have been something of a quid pro quo between Mignini and Guede's lawyer to limit further incriminating evidence against Guede in return for Guede's cooperation against AK/RS.

I am not so sure that there isn't an innocent explanation for the semen. Guede might have claimed that he ejaculated after oral sex. I don't know how this would play into the theorizing above. Mostly I think people have gone about as far as possible with the available facts. In the end, what went on here is unknowable to the general public. It is greatly against the interest of everybody involved to reveal the truth about what went on and they are the only people that know. I think this is a conspiracy that could be limited to Mignini, Comodi, Stefanoni and a few judges and perhaps some police officials that went along with it.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder,

Please examine the site:

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/guede-dna-investigation/

There is a table of DNA and other forensic results, summarized from what Stefanoni disclosed, located after the text of the site, titled: The Guede Investigation.

One column of that table is labeled "Blood". If blood was reported for an item by Stefanoni, a plus sign and red color is present in that row. In one case, the result is shown as a question mark and red color, because of uncertainty. There are no red colors or plus signs for the toothbrush tests in the "Blood" column. If one looks toward the end of the table, at Rep 222, there is an item in that row called "Adidas Socks" which also has a plus sign and red color in the "Blood" column.

I hope the above information is helpful.

Why would they describe it as "apparent blood" if it had been tested for blood and came back positive?

Do you have an idea how the blood got on his socks?

If the theory here is that the blood at Rudi's was suppressed doesn't this presentation prove otherwise? When was this PP made public?