Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Strozzi]

You've actually highlighted one of the most important reasons why Amanda and Raffaele could not have committed the crime: There was no blood at Raffaele's apartment - a complete absence of transfer evidence from Kercher's room.

At the very least, it should have been necessary to find roughly equivalent evidence to the evidence found for Guede. Yet they persuaded courts to convict without it.

Just to be clear - are you suggesting that there was no suppression of evidence related to Guede in an effort to play down the extent of his involvement?

What do you think about the museum ticket? Interesting huh? Guede was a culture junkie? Or perhaps it wasn't his.

Are you suggesting that Rudi may have taken a pair of jeans from the guys' flat downstairs and that the museum ticket was in a pocket of the jeans? Say, didn't one of the guys who live downstairs visit that same museum in Rome a month or two earlier? You don't suppose the museum ticket stub was in his jeans' pocket?

 

[Kauffer]

Are you suggesting that Rudi may have taken a pair of jeans from the guys' flat downstairs and that the museum ticket was in a pocket of the jeans? Say, didn't one of the guys who live downstairs visit that same museum in Rome a month or two earlier? You don't suppose the museum ticket stub was in his jeans' pocket?

This was Diocletus' supposition. He could be right. At the very least it stands out as an oddity. Why has Guede got a museum ticket? Which museum? Where and when? Was Guede somewhere else at the time? Anyone else connected to the case go to that museum at that time? Clearly, this was a very interesting investigation thread.

 

[Diocletus]

Ken I think we can all agree that Amandaknoxcase.com is a PI site. Your source is from that site and I've never read that his blood was found in his own home at a neutral site but perhaps you'll direct me there.

Here's your "proof" that his blood was found in own home:

5. Batch 4: Guede’s Items Finally Tested (One Month Later)

In Batch 4, 13-18 December 2007, the lab finally analyzed the items that had been seized from Guede’s residence on or about November 16 and in a subsequent raid.

The items included numerous bloody items, which ultimately proved to have Guede’s DNA on them:

1 - a towel,
2 - a sink strainer,
3 - a museum ticket,
4 - sink trap, and
5 - a luminol-positive stain on the floor.

Considered together, these exhibits suggest that Guede was wounded and bleeding prior to fleeing to Germany, a fact that would be consistent with (i) photographs showing healing wounds on Guede’s hands at apprehension, and (ii) Guede’s own admissions that he had cut his hands in the course of the Kercher murder. Notably, all extraction and quantification records for the Batch 4 testing of Guede’s items have been suppressed, and it appears that at least five profiles resulting from analysis of these items have been suppressed. The suppressed profiles correspond with: a pair of jeans (“Loose Fit”) brand, possibly a leather jacket and/or sink and structure-related items at Guede’s apartment.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/guede-dna-investigation/

Obviously everything in his place would have his DNA especially considering the ICSI drag technique of gathering samples. The blood could and most likely was all Meredith's in that as a cut expert you know that by the time he arrived at his abode the bleeding would have stopped.

So blood was found. No surprise since he had Meredith's all over him. He washed up and left blood residue on the towels, sink drain, sink trap and one spot on the floor and shockingly his DNA was there as well. Just like Amanda's DNA was found mixed with Meredith's blood, right?

If you're going to criticize this information because it comes from a "PI site," then you'd better come up with something much better than this. No Meredith DNA was reported found in Guede's flat, including in the blood-positive samples, all of which contained only Guede's DNA and therefore could be only Guede's blood.

You do accidentally suggest an interesting issue, though, which is: why wasn't Kercher's DNA found in Rudy's flat after he had committed a bloody murder. Wouldn't he have at least rubbed some off on a towel or something? If you ask me, he washed up and changed somewhere else, i.e., Downstairs.

 

[Kauffer]

If you're going to criticize this information because it comes from a "PI site," then you'd better come up with something much better than this. No Meredith DNA was reported found in Guede's flat, including in the blood-positive samples, all of which contained only Guede's DNA and therefore could be only Guede's blood.

You do accidentally suggest an interesting issue, though, which is: why wasn't Kercher's DNA found in Rudy's flat after he had committed a bloody murder. Wouldn't he have at least rubbed some off on a towel or something? If you ask me, he washed up and changed somewhere else, i.e., Downstairs.

So there's a problem with disclosure anyway. Kercher's blood and or DNA via Guede's transfer must have been findable somewhere - either downstairs or in Guede's apartment or both. Unless he cleaned up meticulously in a stream or river somewhere in Umbria.

 

[Diocletus]

This was Diocletus' supposition. He could be right. At the very least it stands out as an oddity. Why has Guede got a museum ticket? Which museum? Where and when? Was Guede somewhere else at the time? Anyone else connected to the case go to that museum at that time? Clearly, this was a very interesting investigation thread.

It's a ticket to a Chagall exhibit in Rome, April or May 2007 as I recall. The thought was that Guede grabbed a pair of jeans from one of the boys downstairs who had attended the exhibit as a part of a university art class he was taking. Frank Sfarzo, on the other hand, thinks that Rudy went to this exhibit with his "brother", who apparently is an art fan.

I don't think the police adequately investigated, and we'll never know for sure. Sure is strange for somebody the be carrying around a bloody, old museum ticket in his pocket, though.

 

[Numbers]

If you're going to criticize this information because it comes from a "PI site," then you'd better come up with something much better than this. No Meredith DNA was reported found in Guede's flat, including in the blood-positive samples, all of which contained only Guede's DNA and therefore could be only Guede's blood.

You do accidentally suggest an interesting issue, though, which is: why wasn't Kercher's DNA found in Rudy's flat after he had committed a bloody murder. Wouldn't he have at least rubbed some off on a towel or something? If you ask me, he washed up and changed somewhere else, i.e., Downstairs.

1. Some of the profiles from Guede's flat were suppressed, including that from the sink trap. There may have been profiles of Meredith's DNA detected in Guede's flat and suppressed. Or perhaps there is some other reason for the suppression - such as mixtures that could not be attributed to persons in the case.

2. The massive suppression by the police and prosecutors of the DNA results from the downstairs flat suggests to me that indeed Guede went downstairs to washup and change, and left his blood and DNA and Meredith's blood and DNA in the downstairs flat. The police questioning of the boys from downstairs indicates that the downstairs evidence was critically important, but the treatment of that blood and DNA evidence by the police and prosecution as derived from a cat - without any scientific verification - is telling. In fact, the DNA was shown to be human because it replicated under PCR, which is accomplished with a primate-specific enzyme. So potentially exculpatory evidence relevant to the case was suppressed.

 

[RWVBWL]

Was Dr Patrizia Stefanoni lying?

1. Some of the profiles from Guede's flat were suppressed, including that from the sink trap. There may have been profiles of Meredith's DNA detected in Guede's flat and suppressed. Or perhaps there is some other reason for the suppression - such as mixtures that could not be attributed to persons in the case.

2. The massive suppression by the police and prosecutors of the DNA results from the downstairs flat suggests to me that indeed Guede went downstairs to washup and change, and left his blood and DNA and Meredith's blood and DNA in the downstairs flat. The police questioning of the boys from downstairs indicates that the downstairs evidence was critically important, but the treatment of that blood and DNA evidence by the police and prosecution as derived from a cat - without any scientific verification - is telling. In fact, the DNA was shown to be human because it replicated under PCR, which is accomplished with a primate-specific enzyme. So potentially exculpatory evidence relevant to the case was suppressed.

Nov. 2, 2007.
Crime Scene Video
https://mega.co.nz/#!O4Zh3QxY!MLLxQsnTnxYs-zyAwlsjoak4-yw9QIPILsefu8ZDq08


Down Stairs:
16:29:15 - Flyin' Squad officer Zugarini has broken in downstairs,
and as my avatar shows, is walking away from the door,
but video is shut off here,
before entering the residence,
or the entrance scene(s) are lost or deleted.

16:40:31 - The video restarts + shows large bathroom,
but then stops at marijuana nursery at 16:41:26.
Before going into any of the boyz bedrooms or the small bathroom.

Why?

Because they had blood in them?


If there was blood to be seen in Crime Scene video
from that afternoon on Nov. 2nd at around 4:30 to 4:45 pm or so,
then Dr. Stefanoni's testimony here,
from a conversation with Dr. Comodi at The Massei Trial:

Yes, unfortunately it also happened in this case that a cat that drove us mad because initially, during the on-the-spot investigation, the investigation in the house on via della Pergola, thus the house where the body was found, unfortunately we were badly misled, almost made fools of by the fact that a cat - obviously wounded, had got into the let-us-say flat below the victim's flat. Obviously there was glass shards, broken in short, that were produced in entering the flat because the keys couldn't be found I know. And therefore this cat, unfortunately, was hurt and had left blood all over the place, obviously making us carry out an absolutely crazy sampling job because we thought that somebody had clearly ... in short, I don't know, [something] linked to the crime, and therefore had lost blood. But instead, it was actually a cat.(*)

is bull ****.


Did the cat leave all that blood
and supposedly contaminate the downstairs crime scene overnight
before Dr. Stefanoni had a chance, the next day,
to collect evidence down there?

It'd be simple to find out if true:
Where's the missing Crime Scene video clips from downstairs
on the afternoon of Nov. 2nd???

I want to see what the investigators saw when they 1st entered the flat,
went into the kitchen, the small bathroom, Stefano's bedroom, and the other dudes bedrooms too.

Was blood in that small bathroom, and on Bonassi's bed then?
Or was his bed made, with no drops of blood on it
nor a possible bloody knife handle imprint seen?


(*) - Link:
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c...ny_(English)#Patrizia_Stefanoni.27s_Testimony

 

[RWVBWL]

Oppps,
I forgot this bit of discussion with old timer Dan O.

I've wondered why we can not see the full version of the 1st crime scene video from downstairs?

This turns out not to be the fault of ILE. The file was accidentally deleted and we haven't gotten access to another copy. I've known about it for several years. I'm surprised that nobody else had caught it til now.

Hmmmm,
some video clips that would prove if there was or was not
any blood found in the downstairs small bathroom and Stefano's bedroom
on Nov. 2nd got accidentally deleted?

How cool.
I wonder if the cat deleted them?

 

[Bill Williams]

Oppps,
I forgot this bit of discussion with old timer Dan O.

<.......... sinister deletia ............>

Hmmmm,
some video clips that would prove if there was or was not
any blood found in the downstairs small bathroom and Stefano's bedroom
on Nov. 2nd got accidentally deleted?

How cool.
I wonder if the cat deleted them?

I wonder if there are any stats on how the percentage of destroyed evidence in this case compares to other cases? What about evidence that was simply forgotten to be compiled - recording of interrogations, etc.?

What percentage becomes the threshhold before even a hardened guilter goes, "hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm"?

 

[Grinder]

You've actually highlighted one of the most important reasons why Amanda and Raffaele could not have committed the crime: There was no blood at Raffaele's apartment - a complete absence of transfer evidence from Kercher's room.
At the very least, it should have been necessary to find roughly equivalent evidence to the evidence found for Guede. Yet they persuaded courts to convict without it.

Just to be clear - are you suggesting that there was no suppression of evidence related to Guede in an effort to play down the extent of his involvement?

What do you think about the museum ticket? Interesting huh? Guede was a culture junkie? Or perhaps it wasn't his.

I agree that this is one of the most important absence of evidence issues.

As I have admitted many many times I'm not anything close to a DNA expert. If Numbers' reading of the table is correct for me there is new information. Now if Rudi was as careless handy as Ken then the blood could be from an earlier time but I'm for now accepting that he bled that night. I still find it strange he would go out that night.

Perhaps there was suppression but why? The German pictures convinced most everyone (I appear to have been wrong) so why would blood at his place be suppressed?

I have always thought he explained the blood with his hand cuts from his defensive wounds.

Now it would seem even more so that he wouldn't have denied leaving semen behind if it was his. Why wasn't that covered by his fable?

 

[Grinder]

Are you suggesting that Rudi may have taken a pair of jeans from the guys' flat downstairs and that the museum ticket was in a pocket of the jeans? Say, didn't one of the guys who live downstairs visit that same museum in Rome a month or two earlier? You don't suppose the museum ticket stub was in his jeans' pocket?

This was Diocletus' supposition. He could be right. At the very least it stands out as an oddity. Why has Guede got a museum ticket? Which museum? Where and when? Was Guede somewhere else at the time? Anyone else connected to the case go to that museum at that time? Clearly, this was a very interesting investigation thread.

Have either of you read the depositions of the guys that might have been in Rome?

I wouldn't be surprised that he did take their pants but how could that not have come out? Did the PLE tell them to keep quiet? Wouldn't someone have spilled the beans on this for a few bucks? Did they threaten to charge them with pot growing?

 

[Ken Dine]

Let’s go thru some of your Grinder "Devil’s Advocate” claims:

Since the knife Guede had used was never recovered, we have no way of knowing if Guede’s knife had a traditional ‘HILT’, or whether the observed brusing was instead caused by the body of the knife when the penknife was shoved “up to the hilt,” so to speak.

The defense experts said hilt.

The definition for “hilt” is the “handle” of a knife. I suspect you’re confusing “Hilt” with a finger-guard which is found on some knives?

In any event, I word-searched the Massai report and I found zero references for “hilt.” I next word-searched Massei for “Handle” and found that all the experts had claimed the bruising around the puncture holes in Meredith’s neck were likley caused by the pen-knife’s “Handle” being forcibly thrust all the way into her neck (one expert did say the bruising may have been caused by the attacker's fingernail (see Massei, at PAGE 154).

Here is a typical expert explanation for the bruising:

Massei at PAGE 135:

The second stab wound was much smaller, with a path that crossed the larger wound. He noted the presence of a reddish, scraped area, indicative of the fact that "there was an impact on this region of skin by the near part of the handle of the knife, and," he emphasised, "this is the sign that the knife blade penetrated completely" (page 31 of the transcripts). He added that "on the other hand, it makes absolutely no sense during a fatal attack...for the blade to be thrust only partially into the wound as if it were some kind of game. When an attacker strikes in order to kill, he strikes completely and with all the strength he has, and that means that the blade entered completely.” The abrasions were present only around the lower edge of the wound, and this indicated that what caused the abrasions was the impact against the skin of the lower edge of the knife handle, and thus, as described by Dr. Lalli, the path of the wounds must necessarily incline upwards.

I posted my citation, and you certainly reviewed it, but then you went into your 'Devil’s Advocate' role and rejected the evidence since Stefanoni had never confirmed it.

Yes I'm a big Steffy fan. No you never provided a cite for the blood found at Rudi's. Rather than your above response why not just provide the quote and link?

No need to provide the citation since I see that you finally found my link and have now discussed Guede's blood with other posters here (and LOST).

Whether you remembered the African hairs or not, Stefanoni admited they were found, but this crucial info has largely been suppressed.

She admitted they were found but suppressed it

Since you obviously haven't heard about the African hairs that Stefanoni found in Meredith's bedroom, that seems proof enough to me that the found African hairs were largely suppressed, or at least not widely reported.

That the Italian police had found African hairs in Merdith’s bedroom on Day-1 influences everything that followed, particularly the late-night interrogation of Amanda where the police forced her to name Lumumba, which was the only African man the police were then aware that Amanda knew.

And you know this how?

I thought the "hairs" were carpet material and not hair at all.

Your memory appears to be failing you since back on July 7th I posted my citation (a ‘Guilter” site) for the African hairs that Stefanoni had found in Meredith's bedroom here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10752609#post10752609

The next day you discussed the African hairs here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10754476#post10754476

 

[codyjuneau]

I agree that this is one of the most important absence of evidence issues.

As I have admitted many many times I'm not anything close to a DNA expert. If Numbers' reading of the table is correct for me there is new information. Now if Rudi was as careless handy as Ken then the blood could be from an earlier time but I'm for now accepting that he bled that night. I still find it strange he would go out that night.

Perhaps there was suppression but why? The German pictures convinced most everyone (I appear to have been wrong) so why would blood at his place be suppressed?

I have always thought he explained the blood with his hand cuts from his defensive wounds.

Now it would seem even more so that he wouldn't have denied leaving semen behind if it was his. Why wasn't that covered by his fable?

.
That has puzzled me also. Is there some reason he could not have woven it into his story?

Perhaps the answer is in the DNA of the semen stain which the police and courts have adamantly refused to test, or more likely refused to release the results of the test.

Maybe the semen stain DNA results reveal all.

Cody
.

 

[Diocletus]

Now it would seem even more so that he wouldn't have denied leaving semen behind if it was his. Why wasn't that covered by his fable?

Didn't Lalli make some statement early on, to the effect that there was not a rape? Maybe Rudy saw this and figured he was in the clear on the semen (in fact, he was, until the defense got involved), and threw in his denial just to seal the deal.

 

[Diocletus]

I wouldn't be surprised that he did take their pants but how could that not have come out? Did the PLE tell them to keep quiet? Wouldn't someone have spilled the beans on this for a few bucks? Did they threaten to charge them with pot growing?

Although at least one of the downstairs boys was taken for a walk-through, it's not clear to me that the boys all had sufficient access to determine whether a pair of trousers was missing.

 

[Grinder]

No need to provide the citation since I see that you finally found my link and have now discussed Guede's blood with other posters here (and LOST).

Lost? I look for facts and if Numbers' reading of the table is correct then they found blood in Rudi's home and no blood of Meredith which seems impossible.

Since you obviously haven't heard about the African hairs that Stefanoni found in Meredith's bedroom, that seems proof enough to me that the found African hairs were largely suppressed, or at least not widely reported.

Hair found in Meredith's fist may identify killer


Meredith was found with her throat cut on Nov 1
By Malcolm Moore in Perugia11:01AM GMT 13 Nov 2007A few strands of hair found in Meredith Kercher's clenched and bloodied fist may hold the clue to the identity of her killer, it has emerged.
Meredith murder suspect 'caught on CCTV'
Dr Luca Lalli, the pathologist who conducted the autopsy on Miss Kercher, said he had discovered "some hairs, some skin cells and some other fibres" on her body.


www.injusticeinperugia.org/InjusticeInPerugia.html
Dec 4, 2009 - For Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, it was the beginning of a long drawn out nightmare that ... If they were the attackers, who did the African hair belong to

Your memory appears to be failing you since back on July 7th I posted my citation (a ‘Guilter” site) for the African hairs that Stefanoni had found in Meredith's bedroom here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10752609#post10752609

The next day you discussed the African hairs here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10754476#post10754476

The story about African hairs was around early. IIRC it was determined they weren't hairs at all. I looked for my comment on hairs from the next day but couldn't find them. I did find yours.

 

[carbonjam72]

It's a ticket to a Chagall exhibit in Rome, April or May 2007 as I recall. The thought was that Guede grabbed a pair of jeans from one of the boys downstairs who had attended the exhibit as a part of a university art class he was taking. Frank Sfarzo, on the other hand, thinks that Rudy went to this exhibit with his "brother", who apparently is an art fan.

I don't think the police adequately investigated, and we'll never know for sure. Sure is strange for somebody the be carrying around a bloody, old museum ticket in his pocket, though.

Ws the bloody museum ticket ever subjected to DNA analysis?

 

[carbonjam72]

Oppps,
I forgot this bit of discussion with old timer Dan O.

------------
Originally Posted by Dan O.
This turns out not to be the fault of ILE. The file was accidentally deleted and we haven't gotten access to another copy. I've known about it for several years. I'm surprised that nobody else had caught it til now.


-----------


Hmmmm,
some video clips that would prove if there was or was not
any blood found in the downstairs small bathroom and Stefano's bedroom
on Nov. 2nd got accidentally deleted?

How cool.
I wonder if the cat deleted them?

This sounds like the file was accidentally deleted by curators of supporters' web sites, and not by the police.

Maybe a request to defense attorneys, or wherever the originals came from would produce the missing footage? It sounds like DanO had it at one time, so the prosecution couldn't have erased it at least at that time.

I agree this is key footage to review. Obviously if there is blood in the downstairs apartment on Nov 2nd when the police first entered the downstairs after Zugarini kicks in the glass door window, then it obviously wasn't left there by a cat that same night. That would be fairly unambiguous evidence of a deliberate cover up, IUAM.

 

[Grinder]

Didn't Lalli make some statement early on, to the effect that there was not a rape? Maybe Rudy saw this and figured he was in the clear on the semen (in fact, he was, until the defense got involved), and threw in his denial just to seal the deal.

In his Skype conversation it is clear that some reports had "sperm" found and Rudi vehemently denies it is his. I forget which Skype it was but I think it was the one on YouTube. My point is that Rudi was/is good at covering with stories and he had plenty of time for this one.

It is on the YouTube and he says "that it is all crap what they say about finding sperm male sperm..."

He also says they just did oral. Giacomo brings up the "findings" in challenging Rudi to say more.

This line of questioning raises the question: Why ask him this stuff if they were trying to minimize his involvement? This is the 19th of November well after many here think they were minimizing his involvement IIUC.

 

[Diocletus]

Ws the bloody museum ticket ever subjected to DNA analysis?

Yes. Both samples, including the TMB sample, returned Guede profiles.