Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Diocletus]

Can you prove that once the DNA on 36 was found it was the one and only knife? Give me a cite as good as the Lalli one.

Was Rudy charged with transporting a weapon?

 

[Diocletus]

I don't believe that the ILE would figure out that Rudi's blood they found early on would spoil their case against Amanda.

Yeah, they probably didn't figure it out until the German cops gave them a big glossy picture of Rudy's hand with knife-attacked wounds on it. So, say, mid/late-November 2007 (post-dating the simultaneous discovery and announcement of 36b by a week or two). Before that, we have only incompetence. Afterwards, we have deceit.

 

[Desert Fox]

Here's another gem, fresh from twitter:

-------------------------
Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 2h2 hours ago
Nearly a dozen witnesses to testify in Sept #amandaknox calumny trial: interpreters, Aussie-Italian English-speaking cop & others.
--------------------------
(courtesy demarcation line to keep Bill from falling out of his chair again).

Looks like a party of the prosecutor, who's bringing the party hats?

I suspect that the judges involved will drag their feet as much as possible so that they can get the ISC motivation report to know what the feel is from above.

 

[Kauffer]

I take it you haven't read Massei.

A motive, therefore, of an erotic, sexually violent nature which, arising from the choice of evil made by Rudy, found active collaboration from Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito​

Does read like Amanda was a Svengali? Sounds like Massei had Rudi leading the pack of drugged up sex fiends.

That's not what Mignini argued. The prosecution makes a case, the defence counters and the judge jiggles it a third way - in Italy only. But still with Massei, Amanda stabs Kercher, but only because of the knife. For the prosecution, Amanda is Svengali. They built their case on it in each trial.

Nothing is sustained without the knife. Waving it about in the room to be scary wasn't going to cut it - if you'll pardon the pun.

 

[Diocletus]

Was Rudy charged with transporting a weapon?

Nope, appears not.

Rudy didn't transport a weapon; only Knox and Sollecito. According to the prosecution.

 

[Planigale]

I am half in love with Grinder. This discussion would not be so good without his grounding in fact. I made the mistake of visiting other web sites and I thought 'why are they afraid of being challenged?' If they had real trust in their beliefs they would be here. Jackie from PMF seems capable of making a rational argument (and some ad hominems) I would like to see him having the courage to post in a neutrally modded environment. Cali Deeva? (my personal bete noire) clearly is scared of having to face the facts as she bans anyone who has a dissenting opinion. Would she post in a neutrally mediated site? I guess no.

FWIW I think that Guede announcing that he had a hand wound at Knox's then showing up with a hand wound means he had a hand wound inflicted at the time of the murder. He was trying to pre-empt the discovery of any of his blood.

 

[Strozzi]

This Aussie/Italian cop, as I understand it, was the source of numerous off the record inaccurate briefings to the media in the whole case - aka leaks. Is Donnino going to show up? The whole list of these "witnesses" should be analysed in order to better understand the circumstances of the last interrogation - the nature of the extraordinary planning involved to routinely question the not-a-suspect, Amanda Knox.

I hope Donnino shows up and is called to testify. One question I would like to see put to her is when she arrived at the Questura at 12:45 or so in the morning did she go directly to the interrogation room or did she go somewhere to be briefed on the situation before joining Napoleoni, Ficcara, and others in the interrogation. It seems logical that as she got out of her car she would not just walk into any interrogation room. She would have to talk to someone to learn which room to go to.

Did she report to the people in the control room? Who was there besides Giobbi? Was the chief there then? What was she told was going on? Was audio running? Could she hear Amanda screaming from down the hall? Did Napoleoni come out of the interrogation to brief Donnino before Donnino entered the interrogation room? Did Donnino bring the tea?

Was Donnino told anything about Amanda's boyfriend? Did she know that he was also in the building? That he was being interrogated? That he had said anything compromising?

 

[carbonjam72]

Allright, well, maybe he would have had a crazy-ass case. But not a real one.

This was a crazy ass case, and not a real one.

 

[Kauffer]

I hope Donnino shows up and is called to testify. One question I would like to see put to her is when she arrived at the Questura at 12:45 or so in the morning did she go directly to the interrogation room or did she go somewhere to be briefed on the situation before joining Napoleoni, Ficcara, and others in the interrogation. It seems logical that as she got out of her car she would not just walk into any interrogation room. She would have to talk to someone to learn which room to go to.

Did she report to the people in the control room? Who was there besides Giobbi? Was the chief there then? What was she told was going on? Was audio running? Could she hear Amanda screaming from down the hall? Did Napoleoni come out of the interrogation to brief Donnino before Donnino entered the interrogation room? Did Donnino bring the tea?

Was Donnino told anything about Amanda's boyfriend? Did she know that he was also in the building? That he was being interrogated? That he had said anything compromising?

Is dalla vedova the counsel in this trial? The defence questioning is important, which is what you are getting at. Bearing in mind that this trial is going nowhere and there's nothing to worry about, it's an opportunity to bolster the ECHR case from the original callunia trial.

 

[Numbers]

I hope Donnino shows up and is called to testify. One question I would like to see put to her is when she arrived at the Questura at 12:45 or so in the morning did she go directly to the interrogation room or did she go somewhere to be briefed on the situation before joining Napoleoni, Ficcara, and others in the interrogation. It seems logical that as she got out of her car she would not just walk into any interrogation room. She would have to talk to someone to learn which room to go to.

Did she report to the people in the control room? Who was there besides Giobbi? Was the chief there then? What was she told was going on? Was audio running? Could she hear Amanda screaming from down the hall? Did Napoleoni come out of the interrogation to brief Donnino before Donnino entered the interrogation room? Did Donnino bring the tea?

Was Donnino told anything about Amanda's boyfriend? Did she know that he was also in the building? That he was being interrogated? That he had said anything compromising?

I suspect that despite all the questions we would want asked of the police, the only action at the next hearing will be merely to continue the case.

 

[Grinder]

Working with your hands is good, but many men in my experience have little experience doing it. Other than a recent "box cutter” injury, your experience bleeding is mainly from your “school years”, so how long ago was that?

In any event, your claimed experience with cut hands certainly doesn’t match my experience.

Fine you have cut your hands more often Perhaps I'm a little more handy and manage to get the job done without cutting myself as often.

Did I say “Abundance?” Clearly, most of the blood found at the crime scene was Meredith’s blood, but logic tells me that Guede had inadvertently cut his fingers during his knife attack on Meredith, which surely left some of Guede’s blood there.

To be clear, Guede's DNA on Meredith's purse was NOT touch DNA, but rather, Guede's DNA on both Meredith's purse and sweatshirt were extracted from samples of Guede's blood found on those items.

Yes what you said means abundant. Even if he bled at the cottage your assertion has nothing to back it but pure speculation.

True, I only mentioned it because when I went to the market the first time after donating, I took off the large obvious bandage, and then walking around the market my arm started dripping, which was embarrassing. After that, I started using a small bandaid, which has always worked to stem the blood after only 20 minutes.

But Rudi would be confident about going out without a bandage after slashing his hands. A little more than a needle hole and way more than embarrassing.

Whether a needle puncture or a boo-boo on my hands (of which there have been plenty), I usually stop bleeding within an hour.

I don't believe I said or implied his hands would still have been bleeding, through my extensive cut experience (did I mention I was Rocky Marciano's cut man? ) I know that a scab can be knocked off and the bleeding is double what it was at the time of injury.

That the police had claimed they had found bleach reciepts in Raffale’s apartment was widely circulated in the Italian and UK media. This ‘bleach’ claim was totally bogus, just as much of the reporting in the Italian & UK media was bogus.

Did you really miss the point that your source made that claim in 2011 in a video well after the meme had been shown to be pure bull?

Since the knife Guede had used was never recovered, we have no way of knowing if Guede’s knife had a traditional ‘HILT’, or whether the observed brusing was instead caused by the body of the knife when the penknife was shoved “up to the hilt,” so to speak.

The defense experts said hilt.

I posted my citation, and you certainly reviewed it, but then you went into your 'Devil’s Advocate' role and rejected the evidence since Stefanoni had never confirmed it.

Yes I'm a big Steffy fan. No you never provided a cite for the blood found at Rudi's. Rather than your above response why not just provide the quote and link?

Did you also remember that Stefanoni had also found five (5) African hairs consistent with Guede in Meredith bedroom?

Cite please.

Whether you remembered the African hairs or not, Stefanoni admited they were found, but this crucial info has largely been suppressed.

She admitted they were found but suppressed it

That the Italian police had found African hairs in Merdith’s bedroom on Day-1 influences everything that followed, particularly the late-night interrogation of Amanda where the police forced her to name Lumumba, which was the only African man the police were then aware that Amanda knew.

And you know this how?

I thought the "hairs" were carpet material and not hair at all.




I bow to your superior deductive logic!

Even though Guede obviously had cut his fingers while attacking Meredith, according to your logic Guede didn’t shed any blood from those cuts, as proved by the fact that Stefanoni and her team never admited to finding any male blood stains in Meredith’s bedroom.

Your reliance on Stefanoni to prove your Devil’s Advocate contentions amazes me, but then again, my deductive reasoning is obviously impaired.[/QUOTE]

 

[Bill Williams]

Mignini has no case if he can't put a knife in Knox's hand and then tie it back to Raf's apartment.

So.....

I take it you were not impressed with Judge Massei's assertion that Knox carried that knife for protection. (Indeed, Judge Massei HAD TO invent some reason, because otherwise also decided there was no premeditation; meaning, no reason connected to the murder for Knox to carry it.)

I also take it you were not impressed with Judge Nencini's revisionist theory that the knife in question was part of a generalized kitchen-knife-swap between the two abodes; giving it a similar innocent reason for it being there in the first place. IIRC Nencini was simply muddled on whether or not he was arguing premeditation anyway... perhaps he should have asked Guede.

Guede was available to give new evidence to the Nencini court was he not? Instead of risking cross-examination, Nencini decided to wait for any mention of the "fight over rent money" story Guede once told for his motivations report - shielded from actual trial testimony, leaving it up to the ISC to deal with at final appeal.

Me? I was not impressed with Nencini for leaving it to his motivations report before advancing these claims, as if Nencini himself had been the prosecutor. Crini certainly made no mention of it all.

Why did Nencini even bother with the trial? Why not just write out his theory in a motivations report and save the Italian taxpayer all that trouble?

In short, Mignini DID put a knife in Knox's hand. He just presented no evidence to even remotely support that assertion. Other than that, I do not know why your knickers are in a knot..... just saying.

 

[Numbers]

Yeah, they probably didn't figure it out until the German cops gave them a big glossy picture of Rudy's hand with knife-attacked wounds on it. So, say, mid/late-November 2007 (post-dating the simultaneous discovery and announcement of 36b by a week or two). Before that, we have only incompetence. Afterwards, we have deceit.

While I like the rhetorical feeling of the highlighted sentences, there was deceit in the police and prosecution actions at the Nov. 5/6 interrogations, the subsequent arrests and custody, and the arrest hearings.

I suggest a revision for increased accuracy:

Before mid-November, we have mainly incompetence. Afterwards, we have mainly deceit.

However, this miscarriage of justice case would not have started without the official dishonesty and official misconduct of the Nov. 5/6 interrogations.

 

[Grinder]

Ken I think we can all agree that Amandaknoxcase.com is a PI site. Your source is from that site and I've never read that his blood was found in his own home at a neutral site but perhaps you'll direct me there.

Here's your "proof" that his blood was found in own home:

5. Batch 4: Guede’s Items Finally Tested (One Month Later)

In Batch 4, 13-18 December 2007, the lab finally analyzed the items that had been seized from Guede’s residence on or about November 16 and in a subsequent raid.

The items included numerous bloody items, which ultimately proved to have Guede’s DNA on them:

1 - a towel,
2 - a sink strainer,
3 - a museum ticket,
4 - sink trap, and
5 - a luminol-positive stain on the floor.

Considered together, these exhibits suggest that Guede was wounded and bleeding prior to fleeing to Germany, a fact that would be consistent with (i) photographs showing healing wounds on Guede’s hands at apprehension, and (ii) Guede’s own admissions that he had cut his hands in the course of the Kercher murder. Notably, all extraction and quantification records for the Batch 4 testing of Guede’s items have been suppressed, and it appears that at least five profiles resulting from analysis of these items have been suppressed. The suppressed profiles correspond with: a pair of jeans (“Loose Fit”) brand, possibly a leather jacket and/or sink and structure-related items at Guede’s apartment.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/guede-dna-investigation/

Obviously everything in his place would have his DNA especially considering the ICSI drag technique of gathering samples. The blood could and most likely was all Meredith's in that as a cut expert you know that by the time he arrived at his abode the bleeding would have stopped.

So blood was found. No surprise since he had Meredith's all over him. He washed up and left blood residue on the towels, sink drain, sink trap and one spot on the floor and shockingly his DNA was there as well. Just like Amanda's DNA was found mixed with Meredith's blood, right?

 

[Numbers]

Ken I think we can all agree that Amandaknoxcase.com is a PI site. Your source is from that site and I've never read that his blood was found in his own home at a neutral site but perhaps you'll direct me there.

Here's your "proof" that his blood was found in own home:

5. Batch 4: Guede’s Items Finally Tested (One Month Later)

In Batch 4, 13-18 December 2007, the lab finally analyzed the items that had been seized from Guede’s residence on or about November 16 and in a subsequent raid.

The items included numerous bloody items, which ultimately proved to have Guede’s DNA on them:

1 - a towel,
2 - a sink strainer,
3 - a museum ticket,
4 - sink trap, and
5 - a luminol-positive stain on the floor.

Considered together, these exhibits suggest that Guede was wounded and bleeding prior to fleeing to Germany, a fact that would be consistent with (i) photographs showing healing wounds on Guede’s hands at apprehension, and (ii) Guede’s own admissions that he had cut his hands in the course of the Kercher murder. Notably, all extraction and quantification records for the Batch 4 testing of Guede’s items have been suppressed, and it appears that at least five profiles resulting from analysis of these items have been suppressed. The suppressed profiles correspond with: a pair of jeans (“Loose Fit”) brand, possibly a leather jacket and/or sink and structure-related items at Guede’s apartment.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/guede-dna-investigation/

Obviously everything in his place would have his DNA especially considering the ICSI drag technique of gathering samples. The blood could and most likely was all Meredith's in that as a cut expert you know that by the time he arrived at his abode the bleeding would have stopped.

So blood was found. No surprise since he had Meredith's all over him. He washed up and left blood residue on the towels, sink drain, sink trap and one spot on the floor and shockingly his DNA was there as well. Just like Amanda's DNA was found mixed with Meredith's blood, right?

No, the highlighted comparison does not apply. Please examine the table given in your citation: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/guede-dna-investigation/.

Based on the table provided in your cite, blood was reported on the particular items you list (which are detailed in the table). However, your suggestion that the blood belongs to Meredith is not at all supported by the data. The DNA profiles for these items, as listed in the table, all (with one possibly significant exception) are attributed to Guede by Stefanoni. There are no DNA mixtures of Guede and Meredith shown in the table for the towel, sink strainer, ticket, and floor blood stain. The DNA profile for the sink trap was not reported; this could be significant, if Stefanoni did not report it because there was a DNA profile mixture of Guede with Meredith.

In contrast, mixed (?) DNA profiles of Meredith and Guede were reported for Meredith's purse.

While the exact course of Guede's bleeding is unknown, his wounds may have either remained bleeding or reopened when he reached his apartment. On the other hand, some of the Guede blood deposits in his flat may have been due to his washing blood from his hands. The ticket may have been bloodied if it was in a pants pocket and he reached into that pocket while he was bleeding; this could have happened back at the cottage.

 

[codyjuneau]

This Aussie/Italian cop, as I understand it, was the source of numerous off the record inaccurate briefings to the media in the whole case - aka leaks. Is Donnino going to show up? The whole list of these "witnesses" should be analysed in order to better understand the circumstances of the last interrogation - the nature of the extraordinary planning involved to routinely question the not-a-suspect, Amanda Knox.

I hope Donnino shows up and is called to testify. One question I would like to see put to her is when she arrived at the Questura at 12:45 or so in the morning did she go directly to the interrogation room or did she go somewhere to be briefed on the situation before joining Napoleoni, Ficcara, and others in the interrogation. It seems logical that as she got out of her car she would not just walk into any interrogation room. She would have to talk to someone to learn which room to go to.

Did she report to the people in the control room? Who was there besides Giobbi? Was the chief there then? What was she told was going on? Was audio running? Could she hear Amanda screaming from down the hall? Did Napoleoni come out of the interrogation to brief Donnino before Donnino entered the interrogation room? Did Donnino bring the tea?

Was Donnino told anything about Amanda's boyfriend? Did she know that he was also in the building? That he was being interrogated? That he had said anything compromising?

.
I would have thought that the defense could request each and every person involved in the interrogation to be subpoenaed (or whatever you lawyers call it) to testify.

Cody
.

 

[Planigale]

Whilst I would not believe Guede's unsupported word, where there is physical evidence to support him, I would provisionally accept an event. Guede says his hand was injured at the time and place of the murder (probably to pre-emptively expalin any drops of his blood found). Subsequent photos document knife like injuries to his hand. Set against this I do not think that the fact that someone failed to notice or to recall an injury to the palmar surface of the hand excludes this event.

The lack of finding of Guede's blood is attributable to a lack of looking and the dominance of the victim's blood.

 

[Kauffer]

Ken I think we can all agree that Amandaknoxcase.com is a PI site. Your source is from that site and I've never read that his blood was found in his own home at a neutral site but perhaps you'll direct me there.

Here's your "proof" that his blood was found in own home:

5. Batch 4: Guede’s Items Finally Tested (One Month Later)

In Batch 4, 13-18 December 2007, the lab finally analyzed the items that had been seized from Guede’s residence on or about November 16 and in a subsequent raid.

The items included numerous bloody items, which ultimately proved to have Guede’s DNA on them:

1 - a towel,
2 - a sink strainer,
3 - a museum ticket,
4 - sink trap, and
5 - a luminol-positive stain on the floor.

Considered together, these exhibits suggest that Guede was wounded and bleeding prior to fleeing to Germany, a fact that would be consistent with (i) photographs showing healing wounds on Guede’s hands at apprehension, and (ii) Guede’s own admissions that he had cut his hands in the course of the Kercher murder. Notably, all extraction and quantification records for the Batch 4 testing of Guede’s items have been suppressed, and it appears that at least five profiles resulting from analysis of these items have been suppressed. The suppressed profiles correspond with: a pair of jeans (“Loose Fit”) brand, possibly a leather jacket and/or sink and structure-related items at Guede’s apartment.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/guede-dna-investigation/

Obviously everything in his place would have his DNA especially considering the ICSI drag technique of gathering samples. The blood could and most likely was all Meredith's in that as a cut expert you know that by the time he arrived at his abode the bleeding would have stopped.

So blood was found. No surprise since he had Meredith's all over him. He washed up and left blood residue on the towels, sink drain, sink trap and one spot on the floor and shockingly his DNA was there as well. Just like Amanda's DNA was found mixed with Meredith's blood, right?

You've actually highlighted one of the most important reasons why Amanda and Raffaele could not have committed the crime: There was no blood at Raffaele's apartment - a complete absence of transfer evidence from Kercher's room.

At the very least, it should have been necessary to find roughly equivalent evidence to the evidence found for Guede. Yet they persuaded courts to convict without it.

Just to be clear - are you suggesting that there was no suppression of evidence related to Guede in an effort to play down the extent of his involvement?

What do you think about the museum ticket? Interesting huh? Guede was a culture junkie? Or perhaps it wasn't his.

 

[Bill Williams]

The "fourth" guy was Rudy: Knox, Sollecito, Lumumba and (4) Rudy. This is what they tried to say when the realized that Sollecito and Lumumba didn't match the vaginal swab dna. Instead of disclosing the non-match, they just said that there was a fourth guy.

And, as I recall, they didn't come up with multiple knives until later, only after the defense raised colorable challenges to the dna work on "the" knife. So, at the time they were releasing/suppressing lab results, there was only one knife, and it was critical that that knife be Rep. 36 and not some other knife traceable to the hand of Rudy Guede.

It's now frustrating to be unable to find the original poster here who first coined the concept......

But these are example of "judicially generated evidence ". That and improperly generated conclusions.

IIRC, Diocletus' post shows how it was done when the real evidence did not line up the way the PLE Afolk needed it to.

 

[Strozzi]

I suggest you read the reports from police leaks in the first week. They called the murder weapon a penknife. They released forensic evidence about the fourth man before Rudi was arrested.

Nov. 5,2007

Luca Lalli, a pathologist who carried out a post-mortem examination, said Miss Kercher was killed with a penknife.He added: "I can confirm that Miss Kercher may have been sexually active before the death, but it was definitely not a rape."
The killer is also thought to have left through the front door, locking Miss Kercher's body in the bedroom and taking the key.
Detectives think he used a rock to smash the bedroom window to trick investigators into thinking there had been a break-in. "The whole of the inside of the house was a complete mess," said Mr Chiacchiera.​

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...h-student-had-sex-with-killer-say-police.html

Police officer Finzi who seized the large kitchen knife from Raffaele's drawer and his senior colleague Chiacchiera who was with him should have paid attention to what pathologist Lalli said about the murder weapon being a pen knife. Finzi should have seized one of those smaller steak knives that was in Raffaele's kitchen drawer.

Had Finzi seized a steak knife they could have made it fit the wounds without having to claim there was a second knife. Dr. Stefanoni could have found Meredith's DNA on the blade of the steak knife - undoubtedly stuck in a serration that the bleach somehow did not cleanse properly.

Chiacchiera should have known that Lalli was quoted saying the murder knife was a pen knife, as Chiacchiera himself was quoted in the same article. Doesn't Chiacchiera read the stories that he feeds to the media? The article appeared on Nov 5, the day before Finzi and Chiacchiera seized the big knife from Raffaele's kitchen drawer. Mignini probably thinks it just shows how difficult it is to get competent cop help when you fabricate evidence.