Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Ken Dine]

That's not what the link says and I've never seen or heard of Rudi's blood being found at the crime scene or his apartment.

In Batch 5 (29 December 2007-early January 2008, not attended by defense observers), the lab isolated two blood-positive samples bearing Guede’s profile. These new samples were from Kercher’s purse and sweatshirt, indicating that Guede had handled, and perhaps bled on these items at the time of the murder.​

According to that citation, it certainly looks like they found Guede's blood on Meredith's purse & jacket to me?

If you want to believe the the police after all of their obvious shenanigans, then that's your right, but I also don't believe that the blood found on Filomena's window was animal blood. The cat-blood supposedly found downstairs is also suspicious.

If the PGP make the same claim about Amanda's blood mixed with Meredith's based on the same findings, it would be rejected here.

The claim that Amanda's blood was found mixed with Meredith's blood in the bathroom was clearly bogus since the police had videotaped themselves improperly taking samples, so not quite the same thing (you're comparing apples to donuts).

I very much doubt he was bleeding or they would have found it at his apartment if no where else. Maybe I forgot about them finding it at his apartment.

They did find Guede's blood at his apartment, in his bathroom sink.

The thing is that I paid attention to this because of the healing cuts found in Germany. I believe they were self inflicted to conform with the "blond Italian" attacker and his fight with him.

Oh, c'mon, that's ridiculous. There's also zero evidence that Guede had purposely cut his hands.

It's actually quite common for a knife attacker to self-inflict cuts on their hands and arms during a knife attack.

The source is hardly neutral on the subject yet even there it is only a "perhaps" as for Rudi bleeding. It certainly isn't surprising that there would be blood on those item, but almost for sure Meredith's.

If Guede had cut his hand during his attack on Meredith (which was highly probable), then it wouldn't be surprising at all to find Guede's blood in her bedroom.

 

[Grinder]

He said he was cut. And there's a picture, curtesy of the German cops, of the cuts. And common sense tells us that this aggressor would likely have suffered such cuts due to the nature if the stabbing. And there are numerous places where he may well have bled, we just can't be sure because the investigators were incompetent. Not sure what else you require, or what you base your opinion on, but investigatory incompetence doesn't negate the other facts.

The same is not true for Amanda because she had no open wounds, didnt say she was cut, and was not at the scene of the crime.

He was picked up almost three weeks after the murder. He said he was cut but didn't bleed. Had he been cut enough to bleed and have cut marks three weeks later it seems doubtful he could have gone out that night and not have people notice.

Once again, the contention was that his DNA was found in abundant amounts in HIS blood on her purse etc. and that is not true.

Amanda said she had been bleeding from her ears and was most certainly at the scene of the crime. They didn't find Amanda's blood mixed with Meredith's and they didn't find Rudi's mixed or unmixed.

 

[Bill Williams]

He was picked up almost three weeks after the murder. He said he was cut but didn't bleed. Had he been cut enough to bleed and have cut marks three weeks later it seems doubtful he could have gone out that night and not have people notice.

Once again, the contention was that his DNA was found in abundant amounts in HIS blood on her purse etc. and that is not true.

Amanda said she had been bleeding from her ears and was most certainly at the scene of the crime. They didn't find Amanda's blood mixed with Meredith's and they didn't find Rudi's mixed or unmixed.

Can you point to a transcript of Rudy's skype call back to Perguia from Germany, the one that the PLE were monitoring? I have a vague memory of the friend saying, "people here are saying you did it."

However, see:

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Alex-Crudo-Statement-8-Dec-2007.pdf

(Australian) Crudo claims to have seen Guede on Nov 2.

Interesting thing about the Crudo deposition is that when this was taken (Dec 8), Crudo cannot remember what he himself did on Nov 1. But the encounter must have been on Nov 2.

Two things of interest Cruso says are:

I don’t remember what I did on the evening of November 1 2007 but I am sure I didn’t go out with Rudy.

Some time ago Rudy told me that he would have liked to find a girlfriend, not for sex but because he felt lonely.​

I'd say he'd better be sure that he did not go out with Rudy on Nov 1!!!! Is he only "pretty sure"? I'm sue someone can think of something conspiratorial about Crudo not being able to remember with certainty if he was with Rudy that night!!!

No mention of cuts.

 

[Grinder]

According to that citation, it certainly looks like they found Guede's blood on Meredith's purse & jacket to me?

In Batch 5 (29 December 2007-early January 2008, not attended by defense observers), the lab isolated two blood-positive samples bearing Guede’s profile. These new samples were from Kercher’s purse and sweatshirt, indicating that Guede had handled, and perhaps bled on these items at the time of the murder.

They found his DNA on the purse and the sweatshirt in Meredith's blood. That's where the blood positive came from and if that wasn't the case they wouldn't say "perhaps". This is exactly the same as the PGP saying the DNA of Amanda found in Filomena's room mixed with Meredith blood was mixed blood from the nose bleed Amanda had when Meredith punched her.

Neither Rudi's nor Amanda's blood (with the exception of the faucet) was found, period.

 

[Diocletus]

He was picked up almost three weeks after the murder. He said he was cut but didn't bleed. Had he been cut enough to bleed and have cut marks three weeks later it seems doubtful he could have gone out that night and not have people notice.

Kindly provide a cite for your contention that he wouldn't be able to go out that night and that he wouldn't have marks 3 weaks later. It so happens that I fell and cut my elbow three weeks ago, went out that night, and still have a scab. Your argument here is just a guess, and not a very persuasive one.

Once again, the contention was that his DNA was found in abundant amounts in HIS blood on her purse etc. and that is not true.

That's an overstatement of the "contention"

Amanda said she had been bleeding from her ears and was most certainly at the scene of the crime. They didn't find Amanda's blood mixed with Meredith's and they didn't find Rudi's mixed or unmixed.

There was innocent reason for Amanda's blood to be there, and there was reason for the authorities to either cover up or be willfully blind to Rudy cutting himself during the attack.

 

[Diocletus]

Neither Rudi's nor Amanda's blood (with the exception of the faucet) was found, period.

Was Amanda's blood found on the faucet? What proof do you have?

 

[Strozzi]

There are lots of places where Rudy's blood might be found. For starters, the knife handle. Also, the palm print on the pillow. In Kerchers vagina. On the door handle. In the purse.

Luminol was used in guedes apartment, but we don't know the results.

The only reason we can't prove guedes blood is because CSI was incompetent.

Rudi's blood might also have been found in the downstairs flat on surfaces and objects such as towels, clothes, and bedding.

Did Stefanoni conceal it from the defense and judges?

 

[bagels]

That's Mach and the guilters. It all based on their imaginstion. Not on the evidence. I think we can maybe imagine what happened that evening to some degree, but I hate to see us put any stock in suggesting we actually know.

For example, I have always believed that Rudy broke in through Filomena's window and then after looking around he went into the john and then Meredith entered. But you know, it might not have happened anything like that. Maybe Rudy through the rock through the window and waited in the bushes looking to see if anyone was alerted by the breaking glass. And then Meredith came home and he just followed her into the cottage and attacked her.

I guess my point is we really don't know and the evidence only tells us so much. I think it's dangerous to think we can actually fill in the holes.

I wasn't though, I was explaining the most probable reasons for Rudy's specific actions. Why he covered the body, why he locked the door despite the break-in and bloody bathroom making it clear something very criminal happened, etc.

I have actually previously posted up thread that it's impossible to perfectly reconstruct the past unless you have a video recording covering all angles.

 

[Grinder]

Was Amanda's blood found on the faucet? What proof do you have?

The sample taken from the front part of the tap of the sink, however, had revealed human blood and the genetic profile of Knox alone​

.

Hellmann report.

ETA - Chris Halkides said...

There are a few drops of blood on the sink faucet that (to the best of my knowledge) had only Amanda's DNA. Amanda believed that her attempt to pierce her ear(s) caused these droplets. These drops are difficult to see in most photographs, but they do show up under strong light. IIRC there was a bloodstain on Amanda's pillow, but I am not certain whether or not that was tested.

From his blog View from Wilmington

http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot.com/2011/09/questions-and-answers-about-mixed-dna.html

ETA 2 - It was unknown at the time but the drop of blood on the faucet belonged to Amanda. This blood was not mixed with any other DNA. The small amount of blood on the faucet most likely came from an irritated ear piercing. Brocci collected this sample before she collected the other samples on the sink, toilet, wall and bidet.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/mixed-dna/

 

[codyjuneau]

I'm enjoying the debate, folks.


Machiavelli,
if you have a moment,
please have a read here from ol' Nara's testimony while conversing with the presiding judge in The Massei Trial, ok?


GCM:
Excuse me, this prolonged (scream), can you describe it better?

NC:
Well, it wasn't like a scream for help, it didn't sound like “Help!” no, it was a cry .. how can I describe it ... aaahhhh, a long scream.

This link works:
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c...timony_(English)#Nara_Capezzali.27s_Testimony

Yep, it figures. The sound Nara described at trial a year later sounds like squeaky brakes.
I wonder how often Nara is awoken by cars, trucks, or buses making loud noise as they break or accelerate as they pass her building at night.

.
There was a fuzzy photo posted a while ago that showed the mechanic's vehicle that took the broken down car away. It looked to me like it was a flatbed truck, the type where a car is winched right up a ramp and fully onto the bed of the truck. An electric winch and metal wire rope winching a car up onto the deck could make a lot of shrill squeaking and squealing noises.

I still hope that one day someone will ask the mechanic what was wrong with the car, if anything.

BTW, RW, congrats on helping to catch the jerk tormenting your sister and her husband. Kudos to the cops also.

Cody
.

 

[RWVBWL]

CodyJuneau!
You gotta be kiddin' me!!!

This is the last time I checked in to The ISF
before I turned off some old Devo albums like this 1,
Live in Seattle, that I was listenin' to on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n_8M4UBQ44
and then hit the sack,
and you bring this up?

Please find that pic!

It totally makes sense!
No way that ol' Nara heard a scream emanating from another residence,
1 where the windows were not broken and the doors shoulda been closed,
and she then heard the perps runnin' in the dry leaves of Miss Kercher's driveway.
It supposedly had rained that night, or was that the night previously?

Nara heard the squeal of that broken down car bein' pulled up onto that flatbed!

I've heard this same sound before,
when an old 1964+1/2 Ford Mustang I once owned had it's brakes give out and I needed a tow,
there was nooooo way I was gonna let a regular tow truck tow that classic car back to "DogTown",
I wanted it loaded onto a flatbed!!!

I'll check back in the mornin',
I hope you, or someone else can find that flatbed pic of the tow truck!!!
RW



PS- Thanks for the congrats,
our Family is stoked at the moment,
although we think that the alleged perp will do it again.
The Detective says if he does it again, and we get CCTV vid from under the truck again,
he'll be totally f'-ed!


I'm probably gonna do some more all night surveillance once again this week.
The guy is a prick. And I bet that after doin' it 5 times,
he'll try 1 more time, because he's really pissed off now...

 

[Diocletus]

The sample taken from the front part of the tap of the sink, however, had revealed human blood and the genetic profile of Knox alone​

.

Hellmann report.

ETA - Chris Halkides said...

There are a few drops of blood on the sink faucet that (to the best of my knowledge) had only Amanda's DNA. Amanda believed that her attempt to pierce her ear(s) caused these droplets. These drops are difficult to see in most photographs, but they do show up under strong light. IIRC there was a bloodstain on Amanda's pillow, but I am not certain whether or not that was tested.

From his blog View from Wilmington

http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot.com/2011/09/questions-and-answers-about-mixed-dna.html

ETA 2 - It was unknown at the time but the drop of blood on the faucet belonged to Amanda. This blood was not mixed with any other DNA. The small amount of blood on the faucet most likely came from an irritated ear piercing. Brocci collected this sample before she collected the other samples on the sink, toilet, wall and bidet.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/mixed-dna/

Oh, so we have a known blood spot with Amanda dna in it.

We have the same for Rudy, so why would you accept that we have Amanda blood and reject the possibility that we have Rudy's blood?

Still waiting for the proof that his hand should have been less or more healed 3 wks after he knifed kercher.

 

[analemma]

It's a fact.
A *fact*.

Two burglaries occurred at the cottage, one through the corridoor french window, the other from the kitchen window. Both throught the balcony.
*fact*

Please provide documentation for these lies.

 

[analemma]

This is not true, because staging a burglary is something very common on domestic murders.

You keep saying this, but as with so many other statements, you provide no source to support what you say, but then again, we are becoming use to pulling statements out of the air.

 

[analemma]

Why should I make things up?
I thought you had some familiarity with biological testing. Why don't you make your own little research about how forensics test a semen stain on fabric?
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=23321

Mach
You are right about this technique: I checked around myself
Thanks

 

[analemma]

Sorry, in order to be charged with stealing you need to actually take away the object. And the object must have a value that is not minimal. A charge of "attempted theft" doesn't exist in the code. Not even a charge of "thinking about theft".
p.s. under Italian law, theft also requires that the owner of the object files a complaint; theft is a charge that cannot be investigated and prosecuted without a victim's complaint.
No. He was convicted for possessing stolen items.
In fact I am surprised we are argueing about some things. The fact is that they appear self-evident to me.

So they caught him with the knife and other items in his backpack but that is NOT burglary in Italy, and since it is technically not burglary he is NOT a burglar, even though he has in his possession objects from the current place he broke into AND the lawyers office where there was a burglary, but these you do not see how this combination of elements suggests a pattern of behavior that STRONGLY suggested that he is a burglar?
Is that what this whole thing is about?
You are completely ignoring his past behavior as a burglar because there was no "judicial truth" decreed to say he acted like a burglar?
And yet you make up the wildest unsupported theories about AK and RS and attribute crazy motives and schemes to them without ANY proof of motive or background criminal activity whatsoever.
You can look forward to a big career in the Italian Justice System.

 

[Grinder]

Oh, so we have a known blood spot with Amanda dna in it.

We have the same for Rudy, so why would you accept that we have Amanda blood and reject the possibility that we have Rudy's blood?

Still waiting for the proof that his hand should have been less or more healed 3 wks after he knifed kercher.

There was no other DNA in the blood spot but Amanda's.

I never said I could prove it but a cut that takes three weeks to heal should have been deep enough to be noticed on the dance floor, IMO. Whether or not he had bleeding hands at the cottage doesn't change the fact that he was there as Meredith bled.

The fact remains that no blood of Rudi was found in the cottage. Someone said some blood was found in his sink which certainly is possible without bleeding from his cut hands. Amanda's blood was also found in her sink.

It is possible that Rudi bled at the cottage but no trace was found that was identified as his. I don't understand why finding his palm print in blood, his DNA on the purse and on her sweater, his shoe prints in the hall (with the help of the Sollecitos) and had his admission he was there, they needed to cover up his blood being found or for that matter his semen.

 

[Diocletus]

There was no other DNA in the blood spot but Amanda's.

So what? That just means that you can "definitely" identify the contributor of the blood. If there is a mix, then you have two possible contributors.

I never said I could prove it but a cut that takes three weeks to heal should have been deep enough to be noticed on the dance floor, IMO. Whether or not he had bleeding hands at the cottage doesn't change the fact that he was there as Meredith bled.

I never said that you said you could prove it, but you should. Otherwise, you're just parroting the ridiculous Italian judge myth that if Rudy cut his hand, everyone would have noticed and he couldn't have gone out dancing. No idea why you accept this, it's ridiculous on its face.

The fact remains that no blood of Rudi was found in the cottage.

No, the fact is that CSI didn't report any Rudy blood. They may well have "found" it, though, in the sense that we see blood and/or his DNA in places where we would expect to find it if he had cut his hand.

Do you think it's more likely that the DNA on the vaginal swab is some skin cell that rubbed off of Rudy, or could it be . . . blood from his bleeding finger?

Someone said some blood was found in his sink which certainly is possible without bleeding from his cut hands. Amanda's blood was also found in her sink.

Would be nice to have the luminol results, wouldn't it? Too bad they're nowhere to be found. This summarizes the Guede investigation, and provides a chart:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/guede-dna-investigation/

It is possible that Rudi bled at the cottage but no trace was found that was identified as his. I don't understand why finding his palm print in blood, his DNA on the purse and on her sweater, his shoe prints in the hall (with the help of the Sollecitos) and had his admission he was there, they needed to cover up his blood being found or for that matter his semen.

Simple: if he cut his hand while knifing Kercher, then it means that Rep. 36 isn't "the knife" . . . and it's much more likely that there weren't any co-conspirators. It's a devastating fact for the prosecution, and it explains why they poo-pooed the photo that the German cops helpfully sent down.

 

[Bill Williams]

I agree in the main with Grinder on this, and fail to see, really, the wedge issue trying to be promoted. Of course this agreement with Grinder is only rhetorically strategic - encouraging him to get really pissed of next time we disagree....

I never said I could prove it but a cut that takes three weeks to heal should have been deep enough to be noticed on the dance floor, IMO. Whether or not he had bleeding hands at the cottage doesn't change the fact that he was there as Meredith bled.

I never said that you said you could prove it, but you should. Otherwise, you're just parroting the ridiculous Italian judge myth that if Rudy cut his hand, everyone would have noticed and he couldn't have gone out dancing. No idea why you accept this, it's ridiculous on its face.

I posted above the Australian, Crudo's, deposition that Rudy had been to his place and also noticed no cuts. Unless there's the further claim that PLE somehow interfered with his deposition (perhaps because by Dec 8, Crudo could not remember if he'd gone out with Rudy on Nov 1!!!) than this is not a "ridiculous Italian judge myth". Grinder has ever reason to accept this.

The fact remains that no blood of Rudi was found in the cottage.

No, the fact is that CSI didn't report any Rudy blood. They may well have "found" it, though, in the sense that we see blood and/or his DNA in places where we would expect to find it if he had cut his hand.
Do you think it's more likely that the DNA on the vaginal swab is some skin cell that rubbed off of Rudy, or could it be . . . blood from his bleeding finger

You may both be nitpicking. The compelling issue is that Rudy's forensic presence is there. He also admits to being in the cottage that night, although his story is that it was for a date mutually agreed upon by Meredith. What you're both after is a measure of rhetorical overkill, a bad habit on forums like this.

It is possible that Rudi bled at the cottage but no trace was found that was identified as his. I don't understand why finding his palm print in blood, his DNA on the purse and on her sweater, his shoe prints in the hall (with the help of the Sollecitos) and had his admission he was there, they needed to cover up his blood being found or for that matter his semen.

Simple: if he cut his hand while knifing Kercher, then it means that Rep. 36 isn't "the knife" . . . and it's much more likely that there weren't any co-conspirators. It's a devastating fact for the prosecution, and it explains why they poo-pooed the photo that the German cops helpfully sent down.

There are many more compelling reasons to disregard Exhibit 36 as irrelevant, and it sounds a bit like a conclusion-driven mini-argument. Finding all that other stuff as Grinder reports makes it also a little bit of overkill to what to need Rudy's blood there as well.... when people like Crudo are saying, "I noticed no cuts" when he saw Rudy on Nov 2.

 

[Bill Williams]

It's a fact.
A *fact*.

Two burglaries occurred at the cottage, one through the corridoor french window, the other from the kitchen window. Both throught the balcony.
*fact*

Please provide documentation for these lies.

I am not sure that Machiavelli is lying here. He may be misremembering or conflating, but IIRC there was at least one burglary through the balcony.

What's at issue is Machiavelli's claim that the balcony is the most logical entry point, combined with that burglars ALWAYS do the most logical thing. It is Machiavelli's spurious argumentative method which is at issue.

Before Filomena's window was permanently barred - cf. the Channel 5 video demonstration of the ease of the climb - I saw a newspaper report of a break-in subsequent to the Kercher murder at the cottage with the sole accompanying pic showing Filomena's window boarded-up.

What I cannot confirm (because I cannot find it again) is what the text of the piece **specifically said** about entry points. I know one entry point mentioned was the kitchen window.....

..... which pretty much destroys Machiavelli's argument that the balcony is the most logical choice and that burglars always act logically - what with the mandatory pointed-ears and all. But I cannot confirm that the implication of the pic showing what it showed was **specifically** confirmed in the text of even the accompanying article.

The problem is people like Machiavelli trying to make Filomena's window seem radioactive to burglars so that they will rather traverse the maelstrom of Hades before breaking in there. It's Machiavelli's version of "Judicially-generated evidence", although in his case it is "silly-driven evidence."