Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Well, just to start, basically in both the Narducci investigations lead by Mignini.
Because you know there were two Narducci investigation files: the first was for the murder of Narducci, it was started after the unburial of Narducci's body. The second was on the side trackings, the corpses exchange.

The first investigation was the most complex one, ended as Mignini asked for the archiviation without indicting anyone. He slated some formal suspects (Calamandrei, Spezi, others) and asked the preliminary judge to not indict anyone because elements were not sufficient to indict specific people. However, that research made great findings about the truth, there were sufficient elements to conclude that the body picked at the lake was not Narducci's, that F.Narducci was killed, and also that Narducci was involved with the MoF murders.
Mignini submitted a 64-page document with the summary of such investigation.
The preliminary judge De Roberti accepted wholly Mignini's conclusions, and she issued a 12-page motivations order of archiviation which is now judicial truth. Calamandrei and Spezi appealed at the Supreme Court to have this document annulled, but the SC rejected their appeal.

Subsequently, in the second investigation Mignini asked to indict 20 people. Micheli rejected the requests and dropped all charges. Mignini appealed at the Supreme Court. This time the SC accepted Mignini's appeal, and annulled almost all of Micheli's dropping of charges; it only accepted the dropping of "criminal association" (mafia) charge, but re-instated all the other 21 charges. The "criminal association" charge was dismissed in point of law, because it's a charge with very peculiar legal elements, while the charges about the single crimes committed by the conspirators were all re-instated. Several of those charges however meanwhile had expired, the Cassazione noted recent expiration for some of them (thanks to Micheli's 1-year delay before depositing the motivations), other expired shortly afterwards.
The last of Spezi's charge was dropped on request of prosecutor Duchini as it expired as well. Brizioli's charge instead still stands, and now he is under trial.
The poin it SC anyway accepted Mignini's investigation was valuable and correct, although, being a Cassazione rulling, it did not get so much into the merits of body swaps and evidence assessment as the De Roberti ruling did.

Another trial which confirmed Mignini's theory was the Ticchioni case, which was a defamation case where the judge found out that a testimony by a fisherman who witnessed the body "placing" was authentic.

There was another case in Milan, this one a calunnia case against Spezi, that ended with the court of Milan acknowledging that Mignini's investigation was correct and the body swap actually occurred and called that a "fact".



See above.



The investigation on the "masterminds" is now opened and focused on deceased Reinecke, a resident of Villa La Sfacciata, he is the man who found the two young men in the van. Mario Vanni before dying also accused a black man, an American citizen and a homosexual, who used to live together with Reinecke, naming him as the man who physically shot some victims. The man has also died of AIDS meanwhile.
Reinecke owned a motor boat at the Trasimeno lake and he was caught with a series of illegally detained firearms. He used to be a fanatic of exhoterism, used to dress in black and wear gold medallions portraying the devile, his second wife claimed she detected the minivan murders thanks to her paranormal powers.



Indeed everything talked about a "political" verdict, but the Porta a Porta show included Roberta Bruzzone who pointed out that Knox was certainly guilty. And was not about "sympathy" for Amanda, it was instead about the "separation of evidence" between Sollecito and Knox.



Roberta Bruzzone is a criminologist and a criminal profiler, not a forensic expert. I have no clue whether she is a fraud. Anyway defence experts are all liars, they get paid for that.

Isn't this one charge that ISC dropped here, the charge of criminal association, the central charge against the Florence 20? Isn't that charge the aspect of the case that involves Mignini and Giuttari's claim that they are the masterminds of the satanic/masonic sect responsible for the MOF murders?

When the case came up on appeal for the balance of the charges, IIRC, Giuttari said nothing would be accomplished in court but he went to show an interest in justice. In other words, the outcome of the charges would be they would lapse due to statue of limitations.

Only Brizzioli refused, insisting on the opportunity to clear his name, isn't that right?
 
Rudi's semen wouldn't been a problem for them. An unknown or not RS,RG or GS would have been a big problem. Just imagine it was some other guy, how would they fit that into the room scenario. What makes you think it wasn't tested? Steffi's or Comodi's word?

Don't forget that the Kerchers legal representative objected to the testing, I assume because of this reason.
 
Let's recall once again that the defence remained silent about the semen stain through almost the whole Massei trial.
We may question why the defence knew about it but didn't want to mention such evidence and didn't request to test it, over a long early stage, while the evidence was about to be discussed.
But I do not really "question" the defence: instead, I recognize an authority of the defence. They are the ones who can say whether a piece of evidence can be of defensive value or not, they have a responsability about this, and the long silence of Vinci tells us they assessed it was not exculpatory evidence, they had their reasons for not requesting to test it.

Not the prosecutors, but the judges refused to test the semen stain. And not only the judges who ruled for guilt, but also those who ruled favourably to the defendants made the choice of not testing the semen stain (a choice inconsstent with their conclusion in favour of defendants).

It really shouldn't matter what the defense wanted. I imagine in a great deal of cases the defense would prefer if nothing whatsoever was tested. But nothing gets around the fact that a probable semen stain found under the victim at a sex murder was left untested. That is just absolutely insane and inexcusable to anyone on the planet and really speaks to the underlying nature of this entire case, which is a case built on lies, corruption, and total incompetence. You are never going to win a single person over to the side of lunacy you are defending because it is all self evidently absurd.
 
In His Own Words

Gosh AC,
I seem to recall that Miss Knox went out alllll alone on Halloween night.
Her new boyfriend of a week wanted to work on his thesis,
for as I seem to recall, as he was due to graduate from College in a coupla weeks.

Odd how Rudy Guede did not try and hook up immediately with Foxy Knoxy,
who was flying solo that night, or make an appointment later that same night as Harry Potter studied. Nor did Rudy try and make an appointment with Amanda for the next night.
At least Amanda would have been ready for she, not Rudy, had condoms.

Rudy was interested in Meredith though.
Heck I've posted the passages here before, read all of the sweet gushings of Meredith's beauty that Rudy Guede uses as he describes Mez in his German Prison Diary, written before PM Mignini got his hands on The Guede.


Odd how Rudy called Carlos to go and hang out with ALL the Spanish kids on Halloween.

But not a text or a phone call to Foxy Knoxy,
which Rudy,
(what with Machiavelli claiming them to be soooo tight after smoking 1 spinello),
must have knew was her nickname, + had her phone # too.
Pffft.
:rolleyes:


Thoughts about Amanda,
in Rudy Guede's own words from his German Prison Diary:
she was a pretty girl.
I don’t remember exactly what I said about her,
but to go to bed with her, yes,

I saw Amanda and Meredith
around town. We said "hi" and that was it.
From there, like all the times, I met Amanda at the court
With Amanda, it was by chance on the street, and it was always “hi” and “bye.”
I never got tight with her, and vice versa.



Thought's about Meredith
in Rudy Guede's own words from his German Prison Diary:
I found her to be a beautiful girl, charming and Sweet,
I flirted.

It was Meredith. She came in, she looked at me, and I looked at her.
Damn, she was Beautiful.

she was Very Beautiful.
I flirted with her and stole a kiss,
She didn't want to die,
She told me not to leave her alone.
I see that sweet face covered with blood.
a sweet and scented flower like Meredith has been broken,
She will be a new star, a lost angel called Meredith.
I tried to save that sweet Angel.
a Divinely Sweet Being...
 
Let's recall once again that the defence remained silent about the semen stain through almost the whole Massei trial.
Let's recall once again that unless the prosecution brings it as evidence, then the defence has no reason to say anything at all. All the need to do is make answer to evidence presented. Like they did when Stfanoni said there was no contamination, and Bongiorno forced Stefanoni to admit that she could neither confirm nor deny touching the bra-hasp with obviously dirty gloves.

To repeat - why on earth would it be suspicious or even telling that he defence would ignore something the prosecution also ignored? You are making a very transparent attempt to shift responsibility away from a failed prosecution on something so obvious......
We may question why the defence knew about it but didn't want to mention such evidence and didn't request to test it, over a long early stage, while the evidence was about to be discussed.
**You** may do that, but to do it you would be engaging in a transparent attempt.... never mind, I'm repeating myself.
But I do not really "question" the defence: instead, I recognize an authority of the defence. They are the ones who can say whether a piece of evidence can be of defensive value or not, they have a responsability about this, and the long silence of Vinci tells us they assessed it was not exculpatory evidence, they had their reasons for not requesting to test it.
And IIUC the court is obliged not to judge that reason as being either exculpatory or damning. Why you see this as even relevant shows the poverty of your analysis of the evidence.
Not the prosecutors, but the judges refused to test the semen stain. And not only the judges who ruled for guilt, but also those who ruled favourably to the defendants made the choice of not testing the semen stain (a choice inconsstent with their conclusion in favour of defendants).
So? This is perhaps the lamest argument associated with this.

The only lamer argument was the one put forward by an English-language guilter, who said something akin that the defence did not object on Nov 2 to he stain not being tested.

Let's let the logic of that bit of analysis seep in. You should really be advancing this line of argument in Italy, in the Italian language where it might do some good. Given that you believe a huge miscarriage of justice was done on March 27, it is puzzling why you only talk this way here and not there.
 
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Let's recall once again that the defence remained silent about the semen stain through almost the whole Massei trial.
We may question why the defence knew about it but didn't want to mention such evidence and didn't request to test it, over a long early stage, while the evidence was about to be discussed.
But I do not really "question" the defence: instead, I recognize an authority of the defence. They are the ones who can say whether a piece of evidence can be of defensive value or not, they have a responsability about this, and the long silence of Vinci tells us they assessed it was not exculpatory evidence, they had their reasons for not requesting to test it.

Not the prosecutors, but the judges refused to test the semen stain. And not only the judges who ruled for guilt, but also those who ruled favourably to the defendants made the choice of not testing the semen stain (a choice inconsstent with their conclusion in favour of defendants).

So, I'm confused. Should the stain have been tested and the results made available in discovery, according to you?
 
Yes, I’m inclined to tell lies

Hey Grinder,
We know that "poor Rudy" tells lies right?
Heck he even, in his own hand writing, writes this in his German Prison Diary:
Yes, I’m inclined to tell lies,...


What do you think of this passage that he wrote in his GPD?
We tried to go to “Domus.” But Alex couldn’t get in,
since he’d fought with one of the club bouncers, so
then everyone returned to the town center, then each
one of us went home.

* * *

Rudy tells lies.
Might Rudy be talking about himself instead of his friend Alex?
Like making mention that he could not get into the Domus nightclub 1 time
because of the break-in err fight with neighbor Christian T. inside own nearby pad one night?

Rudy Guede wrote this while on the run in Germany,
well before Christian T. came forward to say,
after seeing his mug in the news, that it was Rudy he found in his flat
that night as he and his girl slept in their loft.
Why would Rudy mention it?

Ya know, blame it on his friend,
or the rape and murder on someone else,
it wasn't me!

Rudy tells lies.
Might it have been Kokomani's dark colored car that he saw in Meredith's driveway when he arrived for his appointment ,
instead of a drug dealers white car as he wrote of?

Didn't Koko's cell phone in the area of Meredith flat that night?
Wasn't this soon after the time that Rudy had said he left his flat to arrive early at Meredith's cottage
for that appointment he had with her?
 
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It really shouldn't matter what the defense wanted. I imagine in a great deal of cases the defense would prefer if nothing whatsoever was tested. But nothing gets around the fact that a probable semen stain found under the victim at a sex murder was left untested. That is just absolutely insane and inexcusable to anyone on the planet and really speaks to the underlying nature of this entire case, which is a case built on lies, corruption, and total incompetence. You are never going to win a single person over to the side of lunacy you are defending because it is all self evidently absurd.


Exactly. Unless potential tests would be actively exculpatory to the defendant, there's zero reason why the defence would or should be requesting any tests. It's entirely up to the prosecution to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt, and for the courts to be satisfied that guilt has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

Take a more obvious couple of examples to illustrate the point: firstly, suppose a man walked into a crowded bar and shot another man dead. Imagine if the police neglected to obtain and analyse the high-quality CCTV footage which covered the entrance and interior of the bar. If the defendant knew he were innocent, his defence team ought to be urging the acquisition and analysis of this evidence, since it more than likely would be able to provide very strong evidence that somebody other then the defendant had committed the crime.

But for a second example, suppose a man was on trial accused of participating in a gang knife attack on a man, where it was believed that several attackers had all held knives and had all stabbed the victim. Suppose that the police found two knives at the scene, and tested one for fingerprints (where they found prints but not those of the man on trial) but not the other. Would/should the defendant's lawyers be demanding that the second knife be tested? Of course not. Even if the defendant were factually innocent, the absence of the defendant's prints on the second knife would be of virtually no help to the defence: there were more - unrecovered - knives used, plus the prosecution could argue that the defendant might have been wearing gloved or wiped the knife of prints after the attack, plus it's not always possible to lift prints from every item anyhow.

In virtually every criminal investigation, the police and prosecutors have total control over the physical evidence - its collection, its testing, and its analysis (the only area where defence teams have more of a level playing field is in the case of a second autopsy on a murder victim). And of course this is precisely why it's absolutely fundamentally important to fair justice that the police and prosecutors are scrupulously fair and non-partisan in the way they treat the physical evidence: they must collect, test and analyse everything that might reasonably be of probative value (provided that it is reasonable to do so), and they must unconditionally share all their work with the defence (without needing to be asked to do so, of course....).
 
Well said.
Did Mach really say that Vecchiotti is part of the mafia????
Because Vecchiotti is critical of LE laboratories? Imagine that!!!!!!!!!

Why does Mach consistently defend the most corrupt and stupid participants in this whole pathetic fiasco by spewing utterly ridiculous criticisms and bizarre conspiracies in an attempt to smear the Italian persons who have exhibited commendable fairness and intelligence.

Mach acts as if he is an apologist for ONLY the corrupt morons of Italy.

Why? A personal connection to someone involved and desire to protect him of her.
 
I would think providing false documentation to the court about tests carried out on the most critical piece of evidence in the trial, and repeating that falsehood in verbal testimony to the court, would be sufficient justification to think that she was either dishonest or incompetent.

I'm not sure there is false information reported in the RTGF report. We are only talking about item 36 B/C DNA quantification, the docuemnt doesn't report anything about it. DNA quantification of item 36 is left blank in the report template. At least in my photocopy.

This could be combined with the failure to keep contemporaneous records of the processing of the evidence (vacuum extraction protocol). Then this could be combined with the false testimony with regards to the TMB testing of Luminol positive stains. This could be combined with the incompetent handling when collecting the bra fastener. This could be combined with the false claim that she followed international standards when analysing the mixed DNA from the bra fastener.

No, it cannot be combined with anything.
I accept that there is a failure to document the use of Qbit fluorimeter. This can be defined as a documentation shortcoming. However this appears petty to me.
The other allegations are pointless or false. They don't exist. Let's see the claims.

Failure to keep full record of evidence processing, such is a criticism with a too wide spectrum, could be applied to any item on the same principle. The level of documentation was the same for every item and sample: there are no samples for which such details are specified.
This is something important to point out since at the same time, such criticism would be pointless if it is carried on by the defence party, because nothing prevented prof. Potenza or other experts - representatives from that party - from requesting a better documentation or from documenting themselves the process, through videos or written observation. They had the opportunity to rise the documentation standard if they wanted to.

Then, second allegation, that is that Stefanoni presented a false testimony about TMB, is just false.
It is a false claim. Plain false.
This is pure pro-Knox propaganda myth.
In fact, Stefanoni's team only did not point out in the report that TMB tests had been performed on the luminol stains; but Stefanoni did not present any false information in court. She never denied TMB test was performed. But not only that: in her 2008 testimony she stated that "several other tests" were done on the luminol stains, and also she said they came out negative for blood (or at least she implied the negative result, depending if you interpret her words as explicit or implicit).
She did not state specifically the TMB test, as far as I recall, but she said they have done "multiple kinds" of chemical tests on the luminol stains. IIRC she said that herself, just describing what they did without answering any particular question.

So she did not lie about this, and she did not hide a result neither (the defences could have asked her what kind of tests they did beyond luminol).
Not only that, but also, there is another thing one should note: if someone notes Stefanoni failed to specify that the luminol prints were TMB negative, they ought to also note that Stefanoni also failed to mention that Knox's mop was TMB positive.
She didn't withold just purported "exculpatory" evidence, but also potential "incriminating" evidence of the same kind.

Final point: there is a pro-Knox myth that uses a specific misquote from Stefanoni. There was a moment in a court hearing when Maori asked Stefanoni what substance was laid down on the floor by forensics on a specific point. He was using a laser pen and he wanted to know about a very specific point on the threshold of Meredith's room. Stefanoni said "we laid only luminol there". She was meaning only one particular point where Maori was searching something particular (Sollecito's DNA allegedly "falling from the door").
The pro-Knox propagandists misquote the statement and try to manufacture "evidence " about this.

The alleged incompetent handling of the bra fastener appears to me as something very objectionable, since the item was obviously picked from a dirty floor, and not contaminated from outside the room, but at the same time it is correct to point out that Stefanoni did not change her gloves for every item. The Scientific police simply objected saying "we don't have enough gloves stock", which is credible. Judge Micheli found that objectionable.
I don't think it's something that could be "used" to discredit Stefanoni as a witness.

Same goes for international standards. Those standards are "guidelines" but some of such guidelines are manifestly contrary to Italian law. The interpretation of a peak as stutter rather than allele, for example, as for Italian jurispridence cannot be carried on independently and in isolation from other pieces of information (see Chieffi's legal point). That is for example you may not interpret the X-profile independently from the Y-profile which you found together. One partial finding is supposed to have an influence the interpretation of another piece.

There are multiple episodes of documented false statements by Stefanoni and errors of procedure.

No, there is none.

This would seem to provide justification for a detailed examination of everything else. I cannot say whether Steffanoni is dishonest or careless (I suspect the latter). I suspect that she was poorly resourced, unsupported, and had had insufficient training in the particular issues related to forensic laboratory work and lacked mentoring. In contrast to others I do not think she was a bad person. I think she was working in a bad system.

I can see a contradiction in this final assessment.
To say Stefanoni was not a bad person but only worked within a "bad system", is equivalent of saying she acted well, in good faith, and that she cannot be discredited as a witness.
Or at least, the area of discredit would be very limited, only to her assessments in the fields where one would assume she had insufficient competence. But one could not assume she would be making up a testimony.
If she cannot be discredited as a witness, this implies that no judge could assume she is lying and the burden to prove she is not sincere is entirely on the party who claims so.
 
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The possibility that those people are not corrupt at all does not cross your mind?

Ever heard of Hanlon's razor?
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

Edit: It is not that I think that the courts got it wrong by exonerating Amanda and Raff but assuming that they did, it would be far more likely just a mistake.
 
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So, I'm confused. Should the stain have been tested and the results made available in discovery, according to you?

There is no "should" nor "shouldn't" on my part.

I have a personal preference to know more and prefer have more evidence tested, so I would have preferred the semen stain to be tested after all, but that's my preference alone, it's entirely personal. It's not a demand nor a need.

I try to explain that maybe I see a trial very differently from you. I note defence actions, for example, as representative choices. I don't take it upon myself to decide that something is a potential defensive evidence: I deduce it from the tactical moves of the defence party, from how parties move when opportunities open.

Davefoc made an interesting example about the alcohol test rules on a case of drunk drinking.
 
What can be explained by stupidity?
And what cannot?

You are on a skeptics board and it might be a good idea to understand some of the basic premises involved in skepticism. Most of us laugh when suggestions of Free Masonry or Satanism are brought forward.
 
Let's recall once again that unless the prosecution brings it as evidence, then the defence has no reason to say anything at all.

If the defence - or whoever - think they have no reason to say anything, then ok. But then these same people shall also be consistent, and just maintain that there is no reason to say anything at all.

Instead, what I see is that - despite the the defence took the position that they had no reason to tak about it - the advocates are trying to "use" it as a pretext to try to shift the focus of the trial and the discourse away from the suspect. No, that won't go.

If the position is all they need to do is make answer to evidence presented, and don't talk about else, then they are not in a fair position for attemtping to build a trial against someone else in order to try to push it away from the suspect.
 
You are on a skeptics board and it might be a good idea to understand some of the basic premises involved in skepticism. Most of us laugh when suggestions of Free Masonry or Satanism are brought forward.

My idea is that participants of this forum are staunch believers, not skeptics.
They don't laugh when oster state conspiracy theories involving Stefanoni or tell stories about other false narratives, despite no proof and no factual support exists in reality.

See my post with answers about Stefanoni above, to have a look at what facts look like.
 
My idea is that participants of this forum are staunch believers, not skeptics.
They don't laugh when oster state conspiracy theories involving Stefanoni or tell stories about other false narratives, despite no proof and no factual support exists in reality.

See my post with answers about Stefanoni above, to have a look at what facts look like.

I have discussed this issue with you in the past and you admitted that you never even considered the idea that they might be innocent. A skeptic would start with the position that they do not know although it is always the person making the claim to support their position.
 
It really shouldn't matter what the defense wanted. I imagine in a great deal of cases the defense would prefer if nothing whatsoever was tested. But nothing gets around the fact that a probable semen stain found under the victim at a sex murder was left untested. That is just absolutely insane and inexcusable to anyone on the planet and really speaks to the underlying nature of this entire case, which is a case built on lies, corruption, and total incompetence. You are never going to win a single person over to the side of lunacy you are defending because it is all self evidently absurd.

Aside from suspects, you don't have a shred of proof of "corruption" or lie whatsoever.
Except for Vechiotti, where you have manifest evidence, and Hellmann/Zanetti and Marasca/Bruno where we have some circumstantial evidence of various degree.
 
I have discussed this issue with you in the past and you admitted that you never even considered the idea that they might be innocent. A skeptic would start with the position that they do not know although it is always the person making the claim to support their position.

I think you are mistaken. This was not my position from the start.
From a certain point on, I became sure in a solid and irreversible way. But it wasn't my starting assumption.
 
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