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911myths on Mineta, Cheney and Clarke

Fonebone said:
You're confusing "truther arguments" with the three WTC towers.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=9525376#post9525376
WTC! -WTC2 and WTC7 collapsed into their footprints.
Try to keep up.
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I really don't think I'm the one that's confused.
I made what I thought was at least a moderately amusing quip, one that was based on an assumption that most people here would get the reference. Clearly I assumed wrongly, unless you actually think I am unable to distinguish between a tower and an argument and spend my time shouting at tall buildings.
Is the link to your own post (which some might term self-puffery) supposed to enlighten me in some way?
 
gumboot said:
If you look into it Dick Clarke's timeline is so full of holes it's not funny. He contradicts just about every timeline I can think of.
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Clarke's account was designed to do one thing; deflect any blame from himself. It is amusing that he was the one person to apologize to the family members before his testimony, since in context, he said, "I'm sorry that the people I worked for didn't take me more seriously." Theya culpa, in other words.
 
Brainster said:
Clarke's account was designed to do one thing; deflect any blame from himself.
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Similarly, Mineta's account was designed to make it appear as if he was im charge, well informed and taking the important decisions. In fact, he was never quite in the loop until long after all terrorists were dead and didn't help with anything.
 
Bravin Neff said:
Sorry folks, dumb question...

1. This thread is essentially about debunking some LIHOP truther claims.
...
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Actually, no.

paloalto's intentional derail, started August 3rd, is about some LIHOP claims, or the extent of foreknowledge some principals allegedly had prior to 9/11.

The thread is actually about the exact timeline of certain principals on 9/11, specifically what, where and when were Cheney, Clarke and Mineta doing what. Some truthers take Clarke's book and Mineta's Commission testimony as gospel, according to which the Presidential bunker (PEOC) was manned before AA77 crashed, and they conclude that Cheney was aware of both AA77 and UA93 before they crashed, and, alternatively, ordered UA93 shot down successfully, OR ordered a stand-down.
There is, however, plenty of evidence disproving particularly Mineta's testimony, to the effect that no order by VP Cheney could have affected any of the flights.

I already reported paloalto's interjection as a derail of thread.
 
If the event was completely controlled.... CD, Media, government/Nat security state (non) response... it suggest a very huge and complex conspiracy executed with no rehearsals whatsoever by some group which managed to get a vast array of participants throughout gov and the private sector to be coordinated. This defies credulity.

More likely 9/11 happened as a consequence of failed foreign and "intelligence" policies and a national security state which could not or was not capable of dealing with non state actors using low tech approaches. It's clear that the gov has an agenda to ALSO foster the commercial sector and so we have a huge defense and energy sector which seems to "get us into trouble" as much as it makes us more secure. And of course it is clear that individuals are out to cash out by exploiting the "system"... and use power to advance all sorts of personal agendas.

But again it's hard to organize thousands of people to commit this act as most have some "conscience" and would find murder of thousands of innocents a bridge to far.

Could this be undertaken by a small group expecting the system to respond or not respond on "auto pilot". In a sense the non response was what happened when a small group hijacked and flew planes into the towers. Chaos ensued and their objective was likely to score points with their oppressed supporters as opposed to destroy a few buildings.

Conspiracy of anything but the radical Islam one makes no sense.
 
I had the sense that some folks are simultaneously LIHOP and MIHOP members because of the reference to David Ray Griffin, which I interpreted as having made some LIHOP claims.

DRG is clearly in the MIHOP clamp (e.g., his chapter on "Has NIST debunked the theory of CD..." is clearly a MIHOP position), which led me to ask: are some folks (with DRG as the example) in BOTH camps?

I could be misinterpreting some things being said here. My own incredulity is how anyone could possibly be in both camps and find it plausible, since each on their own is so implausible.
 
JSanderO said:
If the event was completely controlled.... CD, Media, government/Nat security state (non) response... it suggest a very huge and complex conspiracy executed with no rehearsals whatsoever by some group which managed to get a vast array of participants throughout gov and the private sector to be coordinated. This defies credulity.
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Great point and well put.

JSanderO said:
More likely 9/11 happened as a consequence of failed foreign and "intelligence" policies and a national security state which could not or was not capable of dealing with non state actors using low tech approaches.
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Stated as well or better than it has ever been stated.

JSanderO said:
It's clear that the gov has an agenda to ALSO foster the commercial sector and so we have a huge defense and energy sector which seems to "get us into trouble" as much as it makes us more secure.
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I repeat my compliments. You're on a roll, man.

JSanderO said:
Conspiracy of anything but the radical Islam one makes no sense.
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This fact is very painful for many to accept, for many reasons which I personally understand. But it remains a fact - an unfortunate one, yes. But a fact nonetheless.
 
Oystein said:
The thread is actually about the exact timeline of certain principals on 9/11, specifically what, where and when were Cheney, Clarke and Mineta doing what.
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I understood all that, but I also believed (until you just made me doubt it! LOL) that the whole point of the timeline, from the truther's point of view, was to establish some type of LIHOP claim - that Cheney ordered a stand down and hence let it happen on purpose. Is that incorrect?
 
Bravin Neff said:
I understood all that, but I also believed (until you just made me doubt it! LOL) that the whole point of the timeline, from the truther's point of view, was to establish some type of LIHOP claim - that Cheney ordered a stand down and hence let it happen on purpose. Is that incorrect?
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I believe the whole point of the OP is to set straight some false claims made by some truthers about the timeline of certain principals on 9/11.

This does not address any specific MIHOP, LIHOP or LIHOOI claims, truthers aren't clear and speaking with one voice what the incorrect timeline would imply if it were correct.

More importantly, the claims that paloalto pushes have nothing to do with that timeline or any alleged order to shoot down or to not shoot down any planes.

All that these incoherent truther claims have in common is a strong believe that the US government is evil and Cheney evil incarnate. Case in point: paloalto's "When you look at the some of the faces ... in particular Cheney, ... they look guilty as hell." He can just SEE it that Cheney is Satan.
 
Bravin Neff said:
I had the sense that some folks are simultaneously LIHOP and MIHOP members because of the reference to David Ray Griffin, which I interpreted as having made some LIHOP claims.
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I've certainly encountered "truthers" who are willing to believe almost anything except the official story, so the contradiction between LIHOP and MIHOP doesn't phase them -- see, that just shows why we need a new investigation. They do, however, have a strict requirement that any valid theory involves some sort of government conspiracy. For some reason, conspiracy theorists are only interested in the schemings of secret government agendas, rogue government agencies, or secret powers-that-be that really rule the world's governments. They insist that the "official story" is also a "conspiracy theory," apparently without appreciating the irony that it doesn't really qualify under the definition that they themselves have created over the decades.
 
Just listened to Kevin Barret interviewed on Guns and Butter. WOW every single terrorist event in the last 20 years was done by the CIA or rogues in it with Israeli cooperation!
 
Just listened to David Icke on the Alex Jones show. WOW all of the world's events are orchestrated by 5th dimensional lizards!
 
JSanderO said:
Just listened to Kevin Barret interviewed on Guns and Butter. WOW every single terrorist event in the last 20 years was done by the CIA or rogues in it with Israeli cooperation!
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Barret has been pushing this crap for some time now.
 
WilliamSeger said:
I've certainly encountered "truthers" who are willing to believe almost anything except the official story, so the contradiction between LIHOP and MIHOP doesn't phase them -- see, that just shows why we need a new investigation. They do, however, have a strict requirement that any valid theory involves some sort of government conspiracy. For some reason, conspiracy theorists are only interested in the schemings of secret government agendas, rogue government agencies, or secret powers-that-be that really rule the world's governments. They insist that the "official story" is also a "conspiracy theory," apparently without appreciating the irony that it doesn't really qualify under the definition that they themselves have created over the decades.
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They honestly think that the U.S. government is all-powerful and all-knowing, and that a bunch of "cave dwellers" from the Middle East aren't capable of coordinating and carrying out a catastrophic attack. They also believe that the majority of the public is too stupid or brainwashed to question the "official story", while simultaneously, they fancy themselves as brave, heroic dissidents who are actually articulating a coherent critique of the U.S. government. They are cult-like in their dogmatic views and behavior, and they don't tolerate actual skepticism or critical thinking.
 
Last edited:
The derail regarding whether anybody had foreknowledge of the attacks has been split to here.
Posted By: Agatha
 
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