Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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I wonder if Vixen would dig having her life's freedom
hinge on something supposedly seen here:
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=10003[/qimg]


So strange that this knife was collected by a police officer, packaged,
and then, the packaged knife was reopened and handled at The Questura!

What was it that Machiavelli recently told us?



[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=10004[/qimg]


Y'kno, I'm California dreamin' right now, where the clocks always read 12:30 and for some reason young girls are coming to the canyon. I just wanna sit in Joshua Tree desert with Gram and the guys an' go UFO spotting. All that peyote and horses with no name. Wow! Welcome to the Hotel California.

Fry your brains, and you, too, will think the sky is purple and there's a pig conspiracy against the dudes, you dig? Like lookin' in a mirror an' seein' a police car...man, almost cut my hair. Step outta line, the man come an' take you away. They're lockin' em up today, they're throwin' away the key, I wonder who it'll be tomorrow, you or me? We're all god's childrun and we all want our freedum, freedum. Book of moses, weighted down by the river....

O wow, I've been converted to innoscenti...must have been the mouldy cheese I ate last night. Wow, and all that I knew was a hole in my shoe that was letting in water. I kicked off my shoes and felt the cool earth under my feet...[That's quite enough ~ Ed]
 
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But no, I don't cherry pick absolutely anything, since I don't dismiss anything. I use all information that emerges from the trial, I don't leave anything out.

Now, you just arbitrarily place a label "omission" blaming somebody because of things which are not omissions, they at not actions that you can pin on the party which you want to blame. It's arbitrary.
The raw data story tells you something of how it works: raw data are not available as evidence in the trial, but defences share full responsibility of that, it's the consequence of their tactical choices as well, if they really wanted raw data they would have obtained them, it is a matter of fact that they didn't pursue that.
The defence also admitted of not requesting the testing of the alleged semen stain.
Recording of interrogation and statement: despite what pro-Knox propaganda says, trial documents say that rather than requesting to have recordings of the interrogation into the trial, the Knox defence instead attempted to have the interrogation declared inadmissible, not admitted into the trial in any form, either written or else. The defence pursued the contrary goal: they wanted to have interrogations and statements precisely ruled out, not heard read or investigated at all.
As a matter of fact, I do not cherry pick absolutely anything, I am glad to pick everything, and I pick up all what exists. Video recordings don't exist, I have no evidence they exist, I collect all existing information.

The EDFs exist. The semen stain exists. The feet of Mezzetti and Romanelli and others exist.

Your original comment demands that you say the evidence which was not released should have been released and that which could have been made should have been.

Yet you say only you wish to use what was released. However, you don't use it all. You cherry pick from what there is, but even that you need to manipulate in order to support a guilty interpretation - as if a TMB negative sample could ever be adduced as evidence of blood; as if mixed, undated DNA samples in a shared bathroom belonging to the users of that bathroom could ever be evidence of the commission of a crime.
 
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Like Machiavelli Vixen has failed to answer my questions. I do not expect the prosecution to call C&V incompetent buffons. I was referring to how Machiavelli has constantly described them due to their supposed incompetence and lack of expertise. It is stupid to say only judges decide if witnesses are credible. If expert witnesses are called, the defence/prosecution has a right to question their expertise. For instance, if someone testified on behalf of the prosecution in a case that he was an expert on ballistics when in reality he was not, it would be reasonable for the defence to question the witness on his lack of expertise and raise this is as an issue. Machaivelli has been constantly banging on about the incompetence and lack of expertise of C&V. I find it odd the prosecution never exploited this. I find it odd that despite being supposedly being the keystone cops of DNA science neither Machiavelli or the prosecution have been able to rebutt their report.

By the way the phrases look you and boyo are never actually used in Wales. Yakkyda should be iechyd da. Vixen could have least made an effort to spell the phrase correctly.


The spelling doesn't reflect the mouthful of phlegm. The barrister for the prosecution will cross- examine. They are only allowed to ask non-leading questions. Maybe in the closing submissions they'll sum up the contradictions and evasions. However, ultimately, it's the court that does the judging.

"Bright the beacon light is shining."
 
The post that I am referencing is not about pointing out facts, it's an emotional outburst by a troubled soul who clearly admits his fanatical hatred for numerous people he doesn't even know based solely on their opinion of one case. His comments are disgusting, and that's being polite.

His comments seem perfectly reasonable and restrained.
 
vixen; said:
There's certainly something in the California air. Do you guys still live in communes with free love and wear flowers in your hair? I always loved Jack Nicholson in 'Easy Rider' when he took a swig - to the horror of the potheads and did his three step elbow jerk - of his bottle of bourbon.

Na baby,
We Cali boyz bring condoms with us when we go on new dates with hotties!
We also call or text before hand, just to make sure "the date" is on.
Unlike your boy "poor Rudy"...

vixen said:
Gosh, I lead such a sheltered life!
All that LA pondering, when it seems so straight forward to us Brits.


Golly,
maybe you need to get out more often and smell the fresh air!
For it seems that it seemed kinda straight forward to the Italian Supreme Court too.
Back in March of this year, sweetie, they set Amanda Knox and [SIZE="-7"]Raffaele Sollecito[/SIZE] free,
if I recall correctly!

Or am I mistaken?
:confused:
 
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But no, I don't cherry pick absolutely anything, since I don't dismiss anything. I use all information that emerges from the trial, I don't leave anything out.

Now, you just arbitrarily place a label "omission" blaming somebody because of things which are not omissions, they at not actions that you can pin on the party which you want to blame. It's arbitrary.
The raw data story tells you something of how it works: raw data are not available as evidence in the trial, but defences share full responsibility of that, it's the consequence of their tactical choices as well, if they really wanted raw data they would have obtained them, it is a matter of fact that they didn't pursue that.
The defence also admitted of not requesting the testing of the alleged semen stain.
Recording of interrogation and statement: despite what pro-Knox propaganda says, trial documents say that rather than requesting to have recordings of the interrogation into the trial, the Knox defence instead attempted to have the interrogation declared inadmissible, not admitted into the trial in any form, either written or else. The defence pursued the contrary goal: they wanted to have interrogations and statements precisely ruled out, not heard read or investigated at all.
As a matter of fact, I do not cherry pick absolutely anything, I am glad to pick everything, and I pick up all what exists. Video recordings don't exist, I have no evidence they exist, I collect all existing information.

Positive confirmatory blood tests don't exist either but that doesn't stop you from believing the luminol footprints are blood. "Oh the TMB results were negative? Well surely that means the amount of blood falls between the sensitivity thresholds of luminol and TMB."
 
The EDFs exist. The semen stain exists. The feet of Mezzetti and Romanelli and others exist.

Your original comment demands that you say the evidence which was not released should have been released and that which could have been made should have been.

Yet you say only you wish to use what was released. However, you don't use it all. You cherry pick from what there is, but even that you need to manipulate in order to support a guilty interpretation - as if a TMB negative sample could ever be adduced as evidence of blood; as if mixed, undated DNA samples in a shared bathroom belonging to the users of that bathroom could ever be evidence of the commission of a crime.

Of course a blood stain can yield a TMB negative result. Yes, of course it can. Occurrence of this is recorded in scientific literature and expected (TMB is far less sensitive than luminol) and it is recorded even on this trial (for example, Knox's blood drop on her pillowcase was TMB negative; some "cat's" blood drops were TMb negative).

And going back to what I said, this only confirms the principle: evidence depends on logical alternatives.
A TMB negative result has no logical value, especially on a latent stain, because there is no alternative: there are no substances known, compatible with the known data, that have the the property of reacting with luminol but not with TMB.

I only wish to use "what was released"? I do not "wish", I accept to use what was part of the trial, insofar as I presume the principle that the trial was just, that means, unless proven otherwise, that it was following due procedure. This is quite a key point.

Because when one accepts that the trial was proper in regards to procedure, it also means I can see that the defence were given adequate opportunities to enter new evidence if they wanted to.
Evidence used in a trial is usually (in fact, always) incomplete. It's always possible, theoretically, to "search for more" and more accurate information.
A trial is not a scientific research, it's different from scientific reserach in many aspects, among them in that it serves one main different purpose: it is aimed at taking a decision, which had to be taken necessarily, and almost certainly on incomplete information. Thus a trial is not mainly a "research", it's a decision-taking process.

Both defence and accusation failed to enter some pieces of evidence or refrained from doing that (we don't know if they could be relevant or not, and in which direction). For example, there are no photos of Knox's hands in the trial files. What we know is that the entering of evidence was done following due procedure, and we also know (and that is also my opinion) that evidence was sufficient to lead to a conclusion of guilt beyond reasonable doubt. So Massei and Nencini concluded whn they refused to test the alleged semen stain or other instances.

When I say the entering of evidence followed due procedure and the parties were given opportunities, and thus it was just, I mean it's something I can see through my eyes. I mean I can see that if the raw data are not there, this is because the defence didn't want to pursue them. I can tell you for sure they didn't intend to have this data, they were not interested in them, knowing something about the rules; prof.Potenza not requesting them is obvious, defence not even calling him to testify about the knife testing is something obvious and remarkable too, Pascali backtracking from his letter in court, not talking about raw data and instead requesting other things is something obvious, CdV failure to explain the judge what he wanted is obvious, defence not requesting raw data at the Hellmann trial nor at the Supreme Court is also obvious; and even the court-appointed experts C&V stated expliticly that they were not interested.
On the other hand, I do not require the raw data myself for my own decision, because I accept the principle that they may be required only by those who suspect Stefanoni is dishonest, while instead I trust Stefanoni and see no reason to assume she is cheating.
The same concept of opportunity goes for the alleged semen stain. I can well see this structures in the trial. I can see that information would be more complete if the hypothetical semen stain was tested, but I can also see the defence was given opportunities to request such test, and refrained from doing it. So the knives in Meredith's apartment for example: the defence during the incidente probatorio requested to test the stone that was trhown through the window, their request was promptly fulfilled; but they didn't request to test the knives. They had a clear opportunity to do so, it was a defence choice to only request a test on the rock, and not on the knives.
On my part, I apply principles of trust of witnesses, in the absence of evidence of the contrary I won't consider a witness a liar. I also apply a principle of trust to the words of Mignini and Comodi, whose sincerity and honesty I have absolutely no reason to doubt. Those principles however ar not arbitrary: they are also principles of law, and I know it's the parties burden to prove if a witness is lying.

So the question is not whether I am happy or not with investigation and amount of information collected, or if I think the investigation had shortcomings and they should have collected more. The information collected and presented is obviously "incomplete", compared to the potential of collecting information, and this happens basically on all investigations.
The correct question would be: would I conclude for a "non guilty" verdict based on the motivation that information was incomplete? Would I reject pieces of evidence on this ground, and set the condition that they "must" be complete otherwise I won't accept a guilty verdict?
The answer to this question is: no. I consider the evidence incomplete (as on any other trial) but sufficient to draw a conclusion of guilt beyond reasonable doubt.
If one day the ECHR said, for instance, that the defence must be given raw data, or that the trial lacked fairness because they did not test the semen stain, that would be ok to me and I would say: let them have raw data. But I am not ECHR, and that would have little to do with the point. If instances were found that caused the trial be unfair, I would agree to fix those instances, maybe through jurisprudence adjustment; but such violations would need to be found, first, and the finding of issues itself won't change the trial conclusion.
 
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Positive confirmatory blood tests don't exist either but that doesn't stop you from believing the luminol footprints are blood. "Oh the TMB results were negative? Well surely that means the amount of blood falls between the sensitivity thresholds of luminol and TMB."

With science, things that fall within the "noise" are generally not considered reliable. We are being asked to accept an argument for guilt based on something that is too low to be able to get through a confirmation test and when there are other materials which can trigger a reaction.
 
Ol'Frank took a bit of a shine to Amanda, did he not? Correct me if I am mistaken, but wasn't Frank booted out of the US rather unceremoniously?


Ol' Frank 1st thought AK was a cunning murderer,
but then he saw the light!

You too would have seen the light
if you really are a mensa chick and went to court every sesh
or followed this case in real time back when it happened.

Unless you,
bein' a Brit, only read The Daily Mail
or Barbie Nadeau's book...

As far as FS bein' booted, I could care less if or if it did not happen.
As I could care less if Vixen doesn't pick up the warm doggie poop
when you walk your doggie,
if you do have 1...

I am just very interested in the court room reporting from The Massei Court and all the Appeals.
Aren't you?
 
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O for Pete's sake - the Sollecito team requested this be tested for the Nencini trial. It was denied.

But he was already convicted by then! Nencini is the appeals trial.
Vinci requested to analyze the pillowcase IIRC together with Stefanoni at beginning of April 2009, and reportedly they discovered the alleged semen stain then. But Vinci remained silent about that. He was present at court hearings on several occasion but he and the defence never mentioned the pillowcase for six months.
 
How come none of Rudy's DNA nor Meredith's blood was found in that bathroom, err shower stall?
In fact, he returned to his digs covered in Meredith's blood.

I fixed this for ya,
Vixen!


Police believed it was Raff who had a thorough shower whilst there.


Gosh,
this is news to me Vixen!
Got a link that says that them coppers believed that [SIZE="-7"]Raffaele[/SIZE] showered?


What time do you think that he showered?

Right after the murder?
Or right after the clean-up?
Or in the mornin' after he mighta had some more luvin' with that Foxy Knoxy?
:confused:
 
Machiavelli said:
The defence also admitted of not requesting the testing of the alleged semen stain.

Bill Williams said:
O for Pete's sake - the Sollecito team requested this be tested for the Nencini trial. It was denied.

But he was already convicted by then! Nencini is the appeals trial.
Vinci requested to analyze the pillowcase IIRC together with Stefanoni at beginning of April 2009, and reportedly they discovered the alleged semen stain then. But Vinci remained silent about that. He was present at court hearings on several occasion but he and the defence never mentioned the pillowcase for six months.

Why would they? It's the prosecution's job to present evidence of guilt. The truth of the matter is that the prosecution/police didn't bother to test the stain. It is truly fascinating reading your posts about this, as if there was something wrong with the defence when it was the prosecution who refused to test it and present it as evidence.

What does Sollecito's legal status have to do with anything? You have been caught in yet another lie. First you say the defence, "admitted of not requesting the testing of the alleged semen stain."

Then when it's pointed out to you they did in fact do that you type out a complete non sequitor. "But he was already convicted by then!" LOL!!! The issue was NOT what Nencini did or did not do, the issue is your false-claim that the defence never requested it.

Makes me wonder what lie you'll come up with next. This lie is so unlike your other ones; this one is awkward and obvious.

Machiavelli - please answer this question: why are you typing away in English-language services, instead of carrying this fight within Italy (in Italian) where it might do some good? Can you point to ANY Italian language forums like this one where this case is even discussed.

It seems to have dropped off the Italian radar after March 2015. There now seem to be only two people in Italy who say AK and RS are guilty - you and Rudy Guede.
 
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Why would they? It's the prosecution's job to present evidence of guilt. The truth of the matter is that the prosecution/police didn't bother to test the stain. It is truly fascinating reading your posts about this, as if there was something wrong with the defence when it was the prosecution who refused to test it and present it as evidence.

What does Sollecito's legal status have to do with anything? You have been caught in yet another lie. First you say the defence, "admitted of not requesting the testing of the alleged semen stain."

Then when it's pointed out to you they did in fact do that you type out a complete non sequitor. "But he was already convicted by then!" LOL!!! The issue was NOT what Nencini did or did not do, the issue is your false-claim that the defence never requested it.

Makes me wonder what lie you'll come up with next.

Come on Bill, this is childish. You perfectly understood what I meant, since I recalled the events many times (also today in this page, talking with Kauffer). Attempting to accuse me of lying on this is really quite childish.
 
........................................... but such violations would need to be found, first, and the finding of issues itself won't change the trial conclusion.

And that conclusion was that the two were innocent. What the heck are you trying to argue?
 
Y'kno, I'm California dreamin' right now, where the clocks always read 12:30 and for some reason young girls are coming to the canyon. I just wanna sit in Joshua Tree desert with Gram and the guys an' go UFO spotting. All that peyote and horses with no name. Wow! Welcome to the Hotel California.

Fry your brains, and you, too, will think the sky is purple and there's a pig conspiracy against the dudes, you dig? Like lookin' in a mirror an' seein' a police car...man, almost cut my hair. Step outta line, the man come an' take you away. They're lockin' em up today, they're throwin' away the key, I wonder who it'll be tomorrow, you or me? We're all god's childrun and we all want our freedum, freedum. Book of moses, weighted down by the river....

O wow, I've been converted to innoscenti...must have been the mouldy cheese I ate last night. Wow, and all that I knew was a hole in my shoe that was letting in water. I kicked off my shoes and felt the cool earth under my feet...[That's quite enough ~ Ed]


Nice!
I hope that you get what you dream of,
girl!

If ya ever get to L.A.
drop me a note.
If ya know how to swim, just put on a cute lil' bikini
+ I'll take ya surfin' and push you into some waves here in the waters off Hollywood...

But with that said,
I gotta wonder what was Antonio Curatolo dreamin',
err thinkin' about on the night of Nov. 1st, 2007,
while high on heroin
???

Maybe wishin' he was on the beach,
wearin' board shorts as I do daily + checkin' out the babes
and dreamin' of some of our warm California sunshine
as he spent a cold Fall night outside on a park bench?

Gosh,
I hope the old geezer stayed warm that night.

Heck,
I've read that Vixen,
well you'se be a bettin' kinda woman,
ain't that right?

I'd betcha that ol' Toto,
high on heroin that night,
saw and heard the commotion when the black dude
bumped into Alessandra Formica's guy pal around 10:30pm that night on those nearby steps.

He just did not wanna tell the Massei Court this.

I also betcha that ol' "Toto" heard and saw the tow truck driver workin' on the broken down car around 11:00pm.

He just did not wanna tell the Massei Court this.

And I betcha ol' "Toto" did hear that loud blood curdling' scream that made some ol' lady's skin crawl
from behind the safety of her double paned windows. And he did hear them dry leaves a rustlin' too...

He just did not wanna tell the Massei Court this.

Odd how ol' "Toto" did not apparently hear
whatever it was that caused many normal folks to look towards Meredith's apartment on that chilly November night:
picture.php


I betcha that whatever it was that caused these folks
to look towards Meredith's apartment on a holiday evening
was related to her rape + murder.

Whatdoya think,
Vixen?
 
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Bill Williams said:
Why would they? It's the prosecution's job to present evidence of guilt. The truth of the matter is that the prosecution/police didn't bother to test the stain. It is truly fascinating reading your posts about this, as if there was something wrong with the defence when it was the prosecution who refused to test it and present it as evidence.

What does Sollecito's legal status have to do with anything? You have been caught in yet another lie. First you say the defence, "admitted of not requesting the testing of the alleged semen stain."

Then when it's pointed out to you they did in fact do that you type out a complete non sequitor. "But he was already convicted by then!" LOL!!! The issue was NOT what Nencini did or did not do, the issue is your false-claim that the defence never requested it.

Makes me wonder what lie you'll come up with next.

Come on Bill, this is childish. You perfectly understood what I meant, since I recalled the events many times (also today in this page, talking with Kauffer). Attempting to accuse me of lying on this is really quite childish.

Wise children.

You said the defence never requested the stain to be tested. They petitioned he Nencini court to test it. You said, "But Sollecito was already convicted."

Huh!? I thought your claim was that the defence had never asked for a testing of the stain.

You are either lying, or have had a very uncharacteristic brain-blip. Honestly, track back on the thread. Quit trying to play both sides of an issue.
 
Why would they? It's the prosecution's job to present evidence of guilt. The truth of the matter is that the prosecution/police didn't bother to test the stain. It is truly fascinating reading your posts about this, as if there was something wrong with the defence when it was the prosecution who refused to test it and present it as evidence.

The prosecution did present evidence of guilt.

While it seems here that you are suggesting that a testing of the alleged semen stain would have been a defensive point.

If it was an important defensive instance, why did the defence pull a layer of silence over it for at least six months?

What does Sollecito's legal status have to do with anything? You have been caught in yet another lie. First you say the defence, "admitted of not requesting the testing of the alleged semen stain."

Point out again that this is a very stupid attempt of personal attack. You prove yourself extremely disingenuous.
I stand by my statement: the defence (even Sollecito himself) admitted to not having made the request (this for at least six mohnts, until after the battle was lost).
 
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But no, I don't cherry pick absolutely anything, since I don't dismiss anything. I use all information that emerges from the trial, I don't leave anything out.

Now, you just arbitrarily place a label "omission" blaming somebody because of things which are not omissions, they at not actions that you can pin on the party which you want to blame. It's arbitrary.
The raw data story tells you something of how it works: raw data are not available as evidence in the trial, but defences share full responsibility of that, it's the consequence of their tactical choices as well, if they really wanted raw data they would have obtained them, it is a matter of fact that they didn't pursue that.
The defence also admitted of not requesting the testing of the alleged semen stain.Recording of interrogation and statement: despite what pro-Knox propaganda says, trial documents say that rather than requesting to have recordings of the interrogation into the trial, the Knox defence instead attempted to have the interrogation declared inadmissible, not admitted into the trial in any form, either written or else. The defence pursued the contrary goal: they wanted to have interrogations and statements precisely ruled out, not heard read or investigated at all.
As a matter of fact, I do not cherry pick absolutely anything, I am glad to pick everything, and I pick up all what exists. Video recordings don't exist, I have no evidence they exist, I collect all existing information.

This was your post, Machiavelli - the one where you say you do not cherry-pick evidence.

Apparently you do. You want the defences request to the Nencini court for a testing of the presumed semen-stain to be ignored because, well.... lessee.... ah, er, Sollecito was a convicted person at that time.

Huh!?

Seriously dude - do you argue this in the Italian language on Italian web-services like this one? Are there even ANY Italians who argue anything to do with this case?

My survey (brief I'll admit) of Italian sites shows this case was solved on March 27 2015 and everyone has moved on.

Except for you and Rudy Guede. In Italy at least.
 
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