Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[carbonjam72]

Don't you wonder if any of the detectives involved in this case KNOW that they screwed the pooch? That at least to themselves they KNOW that Raffaele and Amanda had nothing to do with it? That maybe a few of them regret what they did to these young people? That maybe some of them pushed a little for the case to be dropped. Some early on and others over time?

How many are secretly embarrassed? Or are they all like Machiavelli? So invested in their own nonsense that they are willing to explain it through these bizarre and incomprehensible illogical machinations? I have to believe that there are a few.

Some, clearly are like the guy who needs a shower. They can't smell their own odor.
But you have to believe some KNOW they stink.

I think there has to be a spectrum of awarenesses, from those as committed as Mach to the impossible unsupported crazy allegations by mad Mignini, to those who have doubts, to those who know its just wrong.

Not all the police who sued amanda for slander, IIRC, actually showed up in court. That says something I think. If they really felt their "honor" was at stakem, wouldn't these Italian civil servants show up to defend that precious "face"?

Unless we're willing to say all Italians are uniformly sadistic, idiotic, buffoons, like Mignini, then there has to be an "awareness scale", from Mach at ZERO, to those fully aware of what they've done.

The most interesting question of this entire case for me, is where on the spectrum does Mignini fall? Or is he more of a quantum value, here one moment, and there the next, as he shifts back and forth from inventing his lies, and then believing his own baloney.

 

[RWVBWL]

The use of DNA evidence has always frightened me to a degree. It seems to be very persuasive with juries, but you know that for the most part these individuals don't really understand it. What the do understand is the statistical probabilities put before them. Millions to one, etc.

I'm a big believer in science. But I don't accept it as infallible. Too many accepted scientific concepts have been revised over the years.

What bothers me is the potential for abuse by the state. The police found your DNA at a murder scene. They have nothing else but this is enough to put you in prison for life. Something that can't be seen even by the most powerful optical microscope can destroy your life. But they don't seem to need even that. A tech can gin up the results and that's enough.

This is why controls is so important. It's also why I believe that everything needs to be done in a double blind methodology so it can't be influenced unfairly.

I wonder if Vixen would dig having her life's freedom
hinge on something supposedly seen here:

So strange that this knife was collected by a police officer, packaged,
and then, the packaged knife was reopened and handled at The Questura!

What was it that Machiavelli recently told us?

Gubbiotti re-packaged the knife, taking it out from the envelope, for a good reason,
at least for a reason that seemed good and justified in their moment under their praxis.

According to Gubbiotti’s testimony, he took the knife out from the envelope before re-packaging, in order to do the procedure called “repertazione”, which consists in the bureaucratic part of taking record of what is collected: noting a short description like features and size of the knife, possibly taking pictures of it, assign a number and write a note about it to put on the outside of the cardboard box.

 

[acbytesla]

I think there has to be a spectrum of awarenesses, from those as committed as Mach to the impossible unsupported crazy allegations by mad Mignini, to those who have doubts, to those who know its just wrong.

Not all the police who sued amanda for slander, IIRC, actually showed up in court. That says something I think. If they really felt their "honor" was at stakem, wouldn't these Italian civil servants show up to defend that precious "face"?

Unless we're willing to say all Italians are uniformly sadistic, idiotic, buffoons, like Mignini, then there has to be an "awareness scale", from Mach at ZERO, to those fully aware of what they've done.

The most interesting question of this entire case for me, is where on the spectrum does Mignini fall? Or is he more of a quantum value, here one moment, and there the next, as he shifts back and forth from inventing his lies, and then believing his own baloney.

IMO Mignini is in a class all by himself. I say that more because of how he handled the MOF case which I find to be (if possible) more atrocious than his persecution of Knox and Sollecito. The misery and torment that he has brought to so many families makes him particularly despicable. I would think that if there was a God and heaven in hell that he has an eternity of misery in store for him in the afterlife.

One of your paragraphs makes me wonder. What happened to that case and the case against Amanda's parents. It's so weird how so many of these cases have just sort of disappeared.

 

[carbonjam72]

IMO Mignini is in a class all by himself. I say that more because of how he handled the MOF case which I find to be (if possible) more atrocious than his persecution of Knox and Sollecito. The misery and torment that he has brought to so many families makes him particularly despicable. I would think that if there was a God and heaven in hell that he has an eternity of misery in store for him in the afterlife.

One of your paragraphs makes me wonder. What happened to that case and the case against Amanda's parents. It's so weird how so many of these cases have just sort of disappeared.

Others may have more exact dates, but Raf's (and Gumbel) trial over Honor Bound continues I believe in Sept, 2015. And I think Amanda's trial continues around then, but I'm not sure whether its Fall, 2015 as well (I believe her attorney said they weren't worried because the statute of limitations expires in Oct 2016).

I believe the case against Amanda's parents was also supposed to expire, before running its course, so that will also have no practical effect.

Although Mach has insisted that there will be "judicial truths" that are issued, and re-used in further as yet unknown proceedings.

It just never seems to end. But it all gets generated by Mignini and the criminal cops looking to cover their criminal liability.

Hopefully the Marasca motivation report will be unambiguous in giving the Knox's, Sollecito's, journalists and the MOF defendants, absolute immunity against more of this frivolous and malicious litigation.

Italian civil and criminal procedures are long overdue for an overhaul. My suggestion is they start out by using a 5 day work week for trials, like most modern countries, instead of a 2 day work week - with summers off.

 

[Desert Fox]

The "CLEAN-UP" motif, as exemplified by the lamp, bleach receipts, smell of bleach in Raf's apartment, only one of Amanda's fingerprints found in her own house, are all designed to explain away that there is no evidence against Amanda & Raf, but only against Rudy Guede.

The fact that its scientifically impossible to perform a selective clean-up of DNA, a selective clean-up of fingerprints, and a selective clean-up of fottprints and other tacks made in Meredith's wet blood doesn't seem to have given pause to this idiotic "theory".

It shows not only that Mignini and the police are truly imbeciles, but that they are presenting their case to other imbeciles; judges, lay judges, cops, prosecutors, newspapers, and citizens in Italy and around the world dumb enough to believe it.

My guess though, is more likely, people just haven't thought it through. They don't realize how impossible the argument is, they just hear "clean-up" and go no further. A little confidence in the "authorities", a little fascination with a fresh faced young girl slandered in the media, and presto: modern day witch hunt.

What I'm seeing more and more, is how not unique this case truly is.

You know what would be fun:
Invite two classes of forensic students to a party. Let them party for a while and then invite them back the next. One classes is tasked with only cleaning up their DNA and leaving the other classes DNA. The second class then has to collect evidence. I will be that either the party place will be whitewashed with no DNA of anybody or they will fail to be able to get rid of any DNA evidence.

 

[Desert Fox]

This is how 'Guilters' count Amanda's changing stories (at least THREE (3) versions):

1. "I was with Raff all night at his place."

2. After a long interrogation, "I was kind of sort of at the cottage with Patrick."

3. "I was with Raff all night at his place."

It must be the New Math?

I think it has also been repeated so much by the pro guilt side that others just believe it.

 

[Ken Dine]

[ ]

The "uncertainty" of that extradition process, now a distant memory, would have been how much some US Federal attorney would want to, in effect, retry the case inside the USA with the available evidence. Imagine a US attorney demanding the release of the EDFs, and that playing on CNN 24/7!!!!

While I'm glad this case is finally over, if it had gone the other way, then the extradition process for Amanda's return would have been very interesting.

However, the US Attorney's job would be to represent Italy in Federal Ct, thus I doubt he (or she) would have done less than their best job to secure Amanda's extradition.

After the Sec of State had received and reviewed Italy's extradition request, if approved (they can request more documentation at that point), the State Dept would send the extradition request to the Justice Dept and a US Attorney would be assigned the case.

The US Attorney would then need to file the extradition request in the Federal Ct located in Seattle (where Amanda lives), and unlike with most extradition requests, you can bet every federal judge in Seattle is well aware of the Amanda Knox case, so that (if anything) would be what would set this extradition request apart from a normal extradition hearing.

Typically, the federal judge would merely check to see if Italy's request is complete and if they had probable cause that the person they wanted extradited had committed the crime, which is a low bar to meet and usually is easily met with affidavits that officials in Italy believe the person they seek is culpable of the crime, so little actual evidence need be presented to support the extradition request.

The federal judge would also check if the alleged crime is covered by the terms of the treaty.

Of course, this likely wouldn't have been a normal rubber-stamp extradition hearing, so how the federal judge handled the request would have been very interesting.

Once the federal judge approved the extradition request (assuming they would), Amanda's only right to appeal would be a habeas corpus petition. If Amanda lost that, then the extradition request goes back to the Sec of State for a final decision.

Even if the Sec of State approved Amanda's extradition, given that she had been convicted by Nencini 'in absentia', the normal protocol would be to provisionally extradite her under the condition that Amanda be given a fair trial (yet another trial) so that Amanda could actively be involved in her defense (America doesn't like 'in absentia' trials).

In short, this case could have dragged on for many more years if it hadn't been (thankfully) cut short last March 27th.

As mentioned before, Gloria Allred told then-CNN pundit Piers Morgan that she'd once tried to start a business in Italy; but ran smack into their dysfunctional judicial process. She said she and others always feared that relatively minor legal-scrapes always have the potential in Italy to run afoul of some unknown something, drag on for years, and never resolve. So she decided to cancel plans to open up business in Italy. Acquittals become convictions become acquittals become convictions become acquittals. The lawyers end up with a licence to print Euros.

These remarks were made following the 2013 ISC annulment of Hellmann's acquitals. She saw the Knox/Sollecito case as a cautionary tale for anyone wanting to do business there.

Italy recently began to revamp their civil justice system since they are well aware that their creaky legal system has been scaring away foreign investors.

No one likes their dirty laundry aired in public. Regional loonies like Mignini charge everyone in sight with defamation or calunnia at the slightest provocation. Mignini's parasitical prosecutions are case-in-point as to what Allred was talking about.

Italy seriously needs to revamp their calunnia laws!

 

[Dougm]

You still haven't answered my question why Amanda did not report the lamp missing.

Did I miss your answer to the question whether a knife used to murder someone turned up with no blood yet had the victim's DNA on it?

What must be so obvious about the discussion of this case to the casual observer is how the pro-guilt side continually avoids answering questions on the evidence. They act as though no one ever asked the question.

What we have here is a pro-guilt case that would be one of a kind in history. They have to jump through so many hoops to make their case work, which is why it doesn't. In a typical criminal case, the defense looks for a reasonable doubt, even a small one. This case has doubts you can drive a truck through.

 

[carbonjam72]

What must be so obvious about the discussion of this case to the casual observer is how the pro-guilt side continually avoids answering questions on the evidence. They act as though no one ever asked the question.

What we have here is a pro-guilt case that would be one of a kind in history. They have to jump through so many hoops to make their case work, which is why it doesn't. In a typical criminal case, the defense looks for a reasonable doubt, even a small one. This case has doubts you can drive a truck through.

TJMK editor in chief has posted an article discussing the barrister Fred Davies' analysis of the Kercher case, which has been in discussion on these boards fairly recently.

I can't in good conscience recommend anyone add click views to their business model, whatever it is, but I was intrigued by PQ attempting to wrestle with the UK Barrister.

Not withstanding that many here found Davie's analysis somewhat short of the mark on logic, science & evidence, its interesting to see what PQ is bothered by.

It's like an episode of "Bum Fights".

 

[Desert Fox]

What must be so obvious about the discussion of this case to the casual observer is how the pro-guilt side continually avoids answering questions on the evidence. They act as though no one ever asked the question.

What we have here is a pro-guilt case that would be one of a kind in history. They have to jump through so many hoops to make their case work, which is why it doesn't. In a typical criminal case, the defense looks for a reasonable doubt, even a small one. This case has doubts you can drive a truck through.

You still have so many cases where you have doubt that you can drive a truck through and they still get convicted.

 

[Planigale]

I see Vixen and Mach have failed to respond to the empirical evidence that trace / LCN DNA can undergo tertiary/+ transfer, does not require 'wet' body fluids, and one cannot conclude that the presence of DNA means the presence of the person. (And yes that includes Guede).

 

[acbytesla]

I see Vixen and Mach have failed to respond to the empirical evidence that trace / LCN DNA can undergo tertiary/+ transfer, does not require 'wet' body fluids, and one cannot conclude that the presence of DNA means the presence of the person. (And yes that includes Guede).

Did you really expect them to? I've learned one thing during my time exploring this case. That the guilters will either approach the case with obfuscation and intellectual dishonesty or will sidestep the point.

 

[Numbers]

While I'm glad this case is finally over, if it had gone the other way, then the extradition process for Amanda's return would have been very interesting.

However, the US Attorney's job would be to represent Italy in Federal Ct, thus I doubt he (or she) would have done less than their best job to secure Amanda's extradition.

1. After the Sec of State had received and reviewed Italy's extradition request, if approved (they can request more documentation at that point), the State Dept would send the extradition request to the Justice Dept and a US Attorney would be assigned the case.

The US Attorney would then need to file the extradition request in the Federal Ct located in Seattle (where Amanda lives), and unlike with most extradition requests, you can bet every federal judge in Seattle is well aware of the Amanda Knox case, so that (if anything) would be what would set this extradition request apart from a normal extradition hearing.

Typically, the federal judge would merely check to see if Italy's request is complete and if they had probable cause that the person they wanted extradited had committed the crime, which is a low bar to meet and usually is easily met with affidavits that officials in Italy believe the person they seek is culpable of the crime, so little actual evidence need be presented to support the extradition request.

The federal judge would also check if the alleged crime is covered by the terms of the treaty.

Of course, this likely wouldn't have been a normal rubber-stamp extradition hearing, so how the federal judge handled the request would have been very interesting.

Once the federal judge approved the extradition request (assuming they would), 2. Amanda's only right to appeal would be a habeas corpus petition. 3. If Amanda lost that, then the extradition request goes back to the Sec of State for a final decision.

Even if the Sec of State approved Amanda's extradition, 4. given that she had been convicted by Nencini 'in absentia', the normal protocol would be to provisionally extradite her under the condition that Amanda be given a fair trial (yet another trial) so that Amanda could actively be involved in her defense (America doesn't like 'in absentia' trials).

In short, this case could have dragged on for many more years if it hadn't been (thankfully) cut short last March 27th.




Italy recently began to revamp their civil justice system since they are well aware that their creaky legal system has been scaring away foreign investors.




5. Italy seriously needs to revamp their calunnia laws!

On extradition, highlighted points #1 through 3 are the decision points. It is likely that in a "controversial" or clear miscarriage of justice case such as this, the Secretary of State would stall by asking for additional documentation at step #1. Note that the absentia issue (#4, as well as the virtual absentia based upon the Guede trial naming Knox) would by treaty provide that the SoS could ask for documentation beyond that from a non-absentia conviction. The SoS can, of course, decline extradition at that decision point, as well. Of course, all this is now moot, until the next such case.

With respect to #5, it is not simply the calunnia laws, but clarifying that coerced statements (which can ideally be defined as those based on interrogations conducted without contemporaneous video and sound recording) may not be used for conviction, and that civil and criminal trial evidence must not be presented to the same court if the civil trial evidence is not admissible in a criminal trial.

 

[RWVBWL]

The problem in discussion was indeed that according to Tagliabracci the DNA on the bra clasp was not enough to have a reliable test. And Stefanoni suggested Comodi to say that instead it was the perfect quantity, being 1.4 nanograms. An ideal quantity. But that revealed a problem: why nobody else knew that measure?

<snip>

1.4, the quantity of DNA on the bra.
That number wasn't written on any document, Stefanoni just said it in court.

So how big is this amount of DNA,
that Dr. Stefanoni never even wrote down on her lab tests
(or did she, Machiavelli?)
when compared to the other fella's
who "pressed hard" or "perspired"
+ also left their DNA on Miss Kercher's bra clasp?

And how big is this
compared to the DNA of Miss Kercher that was found on [SIZE="-7"]Raffaele[/SIZE]'s kitchen knife?

Heck,
I've looked at lots of pix of The Knife recently,
if you turn The Knife just so,
back + forth, and side to side,
you can even see Mez's DNA!

Almost.
Not.

 

[RWVBWL]

Ya know somethin'?

I'm gonna go blaze a bong-load right now,
maybe even paddle out + ride a few waves at this surfspot right now:
http://swellmagnet.com/surf-cams/sunset-surf-cam-and-report/
on a 7'6" funboard shaped by Scott Anderson,
a dude who graduated from Venice High 2 years after I did back in the '80's.:
http://www.andersonsurfboards.com/

Heck, if ya look closely at the beach video,
ya might even see my truck at the beach,
I'm just to the right of Lifeguard Station #4,
as this is where I am typin' from,
at the moment...

So I gotta wonder,
before I blaze + paddle out,
where are the results of Rudy Guede's drug tests
after he was arrested and extradited back to Italy from Germany?

Esh,
I also wonder, did German police also drug test The Guid-o?

If so,
where are them results?

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong,
but I seem to recall that Foxy Knoxy and [SIZE="-7"]Raffaele[/SIZE],
when arrested and placed in solitary confinement,
with-out havin' even met yet with a lawyer,
(until their 1st visit in front of The Judge)
were indeed drug tested.



Let's see what old Barbie Latza Nadeau had to say about this, ok?
Barbie's book "Angel Face" on pages 161 +162:
"In the days right after the murder, there was talk of a Satanic ritual because of the Halloween paraphernalia found at the girls' villa and Raf's apartment. That hypothesis was soon discounted, however, and replaced with the idea of sex games gone wrong in a fog of drugs and alcohol. Unfortunately, no alcohol or drug testing was done immediately on Amanda, Raf, or Rudy, and Meredith's initial toxicology reports showed that she had had no more than a glass of wine. (Later toxicology reports that she may have been very drunk, but the prosecution wrote those off as bad forensics - they said her body had not been stored properly, so the blood alcohol levels were due to fermentation, not intoxication. As for Amanda and Raf, when they were finally arrested, on Nov. 6, only the slightest unidentifiable trace of narcotics was found thru hair samples - not even enough to identify the substance.)


Anyone got any info on what the results were of "poor Rudy"s drug tests?

Heck, the dude was apparently busted a coupla days after The Milan Nursery School, err Hostel sleep-over,
just a few days before his "date" with Meredith who would have to have been 2-timin' her new boyfriend Giacomo as he spent time with his Family during Holiday. And she was murdered as "poor Rudy" left her defense-less
and went to her landlord's bathroom to listen to some rap music while "droppin' the kids" off...

Gosh,
as I ready a bowl to blaze,
I wonder, where's Rudy's drug test results?

 

[Strozzi]

On extradition, highlighted points #1 through 3 are the decision points. It is likely that in a "controversial" or clear miscarriage of justice case such as this, the Secretary of State would stall by asking for additional documentation at step #1. Note that the absentia issue (#4, as well as the virtual absentia based upon the Guede trial naming Knox) would by treaty provide that the SoS could ask for documentation beyond that from a non-absentia conviction. The SoS can, of course, decline extradition at that decision point, as well. Of course, all this is now moot, until the next such case.

With respect to #5, it is not simply the calunnia laws, but clarifying that coerced statements (which can ideally be defined as those based on interrogations conducted without contemporaneous video and sound recording) may not be used for conviction, and that civil and criminal trial evidence must not be presented to the same court if the civil trial evidence is not admissible in a criminal trial.

The above dscusses extradition and the US Secretary of State. On March 27, just hours before the ISC found the defendants not guilty, I spoke in Washington with a close family member of a US official who closely follows the case against Knox. His work product would have formed the core of information provided to the US Secretary of State. This man's relative told me that this official privately described the prosecution as "stupid beyond belief".

ETA: I also discussed this case a year ago with a close friend who served on the executive staff of the Director of NSA. I wanted to know if NSA could review communications data it had to see if it included communication within Perugia and communication between Perugia and Rome regarding this case. I was thinking of landline, cell phone, text, and email communications between police, the prosecutors, and others - even for example what Napoleoni, Ficcara (aka "Slappy Ficarra"), Donnino, Giobi, et al might have revealed over the phone in Nov 2007 with each other, with other officials, and even with their family members. While my friend would not have known what raw communications data (if any ) from Italy is stored in NSA repositories and did not speak to that, my friend said that a review could be requested by an appropriate official provided the official declared it to be in the national interest. The Secretary of State and possibly the Attorney General could have requested a NSA review of any information the NSA had collected and retained, if they in fact had collected anything. On this matter, it is possible that very senior US officials could already be well informed about what Italian actors were discussing and doing against Knox and Sollecito. Maybe the shoe will drop in the future. Maybe future historians will have access to this 50 years from now. (Where was Snowdon when Knox needed him?)

 

[Machiavelli]

You mean like blood in the TMB negative cottage samples? Or, the availability of all the control samples? Or proof of what Amanda and Raffaele actually said in interrogation and under what circumstances including proof that Mignini asked no questions and merely took dictation?

No, I mean things for which evidence is zero, such like the alleged existence of "suppressed DNA profiles", and which some criminals falsely present as "proven facts".

 

[Machiavelli]

I see Vixen and Mach have failed to respond to the empirical evidence that trace / LCN DNA can undergo tertiary/+ transfer, does not require 'wet' body fluids, and one cannot conclude that the presence of DNA means the presence of the person. (And yes that includes Guede).

I don't know what "evidence" you refer to, but the existence of a theoretical possibility of some event in rerum natura is just completely pointless.

I noted that I have answered your last post, but didn't find your answer.

 

[acbytesla]

The above dscusses extradition and the US Secretary of State. On March 27, just hours before the ISC found the defendants not guilty, I spoke in Washington with a close family member of a US official who closely follows the case against Knox. His work product would have formed the core of information provided to the US Secretary of State. This man's relative told me that this official privately described the prosecution as "stupid beyond belief".

ETA: I also discussed this case a year ago with a close friend who served on the executive staff of the Director of NSA. I wanted to know if NSA could review communications data it had to see if it included communication within Perugia and communication between Perugia and Rome regarding this case. I was thinking of landline, cell phone, text, and email communications between police, the prosecutors, and others - even for example what Napoleoni, Ficcara (aka "Slappy Ficarra"), Donnino, Giobi, et al might have said over the phone in Nov 2007 with each other, with other officials, and even with their family members. While my friend would not have known what raw communications data (if any ) from Italy is stored in NSA repositories and did not speak to that, my friend said that a review could be requested by an appropriate official provided the official declared it to be in the national interest. The Secretary of State and possibly the Attorney General could have requested a NSA review of any information the NSA had collected and retained, if they in fact had collected anything. On this matter, it is possible that very senior US officials could already be well informed about what Italian actors were discussing and doing against Knox and Sollecito. Maybe the shoe will drop in the future. Maybe future historians will have access to this 50 years from now. (Where was Snowdon when Knox needed him?)

What I find amusing is Machiavelli saying there was some kind of wrongful interference by the US State Department. Personally, that's what I hope the State Department would do if one of its citizens faced such a wrongful prosecution.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't know what "evidence" you refer to, but the existence of a theoretical possibility of some event in rerum natura is just completely pointless.

I noted that I have answered your last post, but didn't find your answer.

Sidestep!