Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Well. Go find the evidence. Your evidence less ruminations have little value.

Didn't you say it was simple?

Nobody can get hold of Stefanoni's qualifications, it seems. Perhaps you are more gifted.

If she was the head honcho, that would mean she had no boss. Hmmm

Were you around for the conversation with Machiavelli on this? Apparently because of custom in Italy, anyone with essentially a Bachelor's degree is entitled to call themselves, "doctor". Both Mignini and Stefanoni do this.

In the rest of the West, "Doctor" indicates a Ph.D. In Italy, they affix other titles or descriptors to people's names to indicate successful advance study. There is nowhere in anything anyone can find to suggest Stefanoni is entitled to "Doctor" in the advanced study-sense, esp. one of defending a thesis and having a Ph.D. conferred upon her.

Machiavelli suggested that it was easy to find, online, that Stefanoni in fact had a Ph.D., except that he was not going to do our work for us. He said we were the ones claiming otherwise, so it was up to us to prove the negative.

Whatever.
 
Were you around for the conversation with Machiavelli on this? Apparently because of custom in Italy, anyone with essentially a Bachelor's degree is entitled to call themselves, "doctor". Both Mignini and Stefanoni do this.

In the rest of the West, "Doctor" indicates a Ph.D. In Italy, they affix other titles or descriptors to people's names to indicate successful advance study. There is nowhere in anything anyone can find to suggest Stefanoni is entitled to "Doctor" in the advanced study-sense, esp. one of defending a thesis and having a Ph.D. conferred upon her.

Machiavelli suggested that it was easy to find, online, that Stefanoni in fact had a Ph.D., except that he was not going to do our work for us. He said we were the ones claiming otherwise, so it was up to us to prove the negative.

Whatever.

Yep. Remember all that. There is a real doctorate available in Italy of course, but no evidence has emerged that Stefanoni has one.
 
Corsi di Genetica Forense, Genetica e Genomica
AVVISO DI SEMINARIO
Con la partecipazione di Uff. Diritto allo Studio Orientamento
e Tutorato Università dell’Aquila
Il giorno 15 aprile 2008, alle ore 15.30, nell’Aula Grande
della Facoltà di Biotecnologie dell’ Università
dell’Aquila, Blocco 11, Coppito
La Dott.ssa Patrizia Stefanoni della Direzione
Centrale Anticrimine della Polizia di Stato, Serv.
Polizia Scientifica,
Lab. Di Genetica Forense
terrà un seminario dal titolo
”L’analisi genetica nell’investigazione di Polizia:
dal sopralluogo tecnico alla determinazione del
profilo genetico”
Alla fine del seminario seguirà una discussione sulle
problematiche riguardanti i data base genetici e
l’applicazione dell’analisi genetica in campo forense per
la determinazione dell’identità personale, con
particolare riferimento alla situazione italiana.
Tutti gli studenti di Biotecnologie, Scienze Biologiche e Scienze
dell’Investigazione interessati sono invitati a partecipare
Il docente dei corsi di Genetica e organizzatore
Prof. Anna Poma
 
Corsi di Genetica Forense, Genetica e Genomica
AVVISO DI SEMINARIO
Con la partecipazione di Uff. Diritto allo Studio Orientamento
e Tutorato Università dell’Aquila
Il giorno 15 aprile 2008, alle ore 15.30, nell’Aula Grande
della Facoltà di Biotecnologie dell’ Università
dell’Aquila, Blocco 11, Coppito
La Dott.ssa Patrizia Stefanoni della Direzione
Centrale Anticrimine della Polizia di Stato, Serv.
Polizia Scientifica,
Lab. Di Genetica Forense
terrà un seminario dal titolo
”L’analisi genetica nell’investigazione di Polizia:
dal sopralluogo tecnico alla determinazione del
profilo genetico”
Alla fine del seminario seguirà una discussione sulle
problematiche riguardanti i data base genetici e
l’applicazione dell’analisi genetica in campo forense per
la determinazione dell’identità personale, con
particolare riferimento alla situazione italiana.
Tutti gli studenti di Biotecnologie, Scienze Biologiche e Scienze
dell’Investigazione interessati sono invitati a partecipare
Il docente dei corsi di Genetica e organizzatore
Prof. Anna Poma

The issue is, what does "La Dott.ssa Patrizia Stefanoni" refer to?

From Wikipedia:

The term dottore is frequently used in Italy to refer to any person with a university Laurea: thus, a person with a laurea magistrale uses the title "dottore magistrale" and a person with a laurea uses the title of "dottore". Those unfamiliar with the Italian university system or the Italian use of titles should note that a "dottore" or "dottoressa" in an Italian context does not necessarily hold a Ph.D. Holders of the dottorato acquire the title of dottore di ricerca ("doctor of research") also abbreviated to "Dott. Ric." or "Ph.D.".
 
What an amazing building. It must be painful for you every time you look at it.


To be honest, Nara's testimony on its own probably meant diddly. It was the sum of all the parts Massei looked at.

Ah. Back to the osmotic evaluation, a term so embarrassing the PMF translators translated it as "organic" or "wholistic".

1000 x diddly still equals diddly.
 
Were you around for the conversation with Machiavelli on this? Apparently because of custom in Italy, anyone with essentially a Bachelor's degree is entitled to call themselves, "doctor". Both Mignini and Stefanoni do this.

In the rest of the West, "Doctor" indicates a Ph.D. In Italy, they affix other titles or descriptors to people's names to indicate successful advance study. There is nowhere in anything anyone can find to suggest Stefanoni is entitled to "Doctor" in the advanced study-sense, esp. one of defending a thesis and having a Ph.D. conferred upon her.

Machiavelli suggested that it was easy to find, online, that Stefanoni in fact had a Ph.D., except that he was not going to do our work for us. He said we were the ones claiming otherwise, so it was up to us to prove the negative.

Whatever.

Not only in Italy. In Portugal anyone with an University degree is called Dr. (or Engineer for Engineering degress). In reality, if you are wearing a suit you will be called Dr. by many people, even if you are not.
 
Not true! Mignini's time of death theory was based on it. Without Nara the 11:30 TOD has no basis. The exchange below shows Nara claiming to have learned about Meredith's murder at 9:30 AM on November 2.

She is obviously confused throughout her testimony. She also got confused about the day she heard the scream and Nara also testified seeing Meredith one day with a fat lip as if she’d been punched.

G. Bongiorno: "And about eleven these lads tell you that a girl has been killed."

N. Cappezzali:"No, no, they told me that earlier on, but I came back later."

GB:"First of all, at what time did you learn this girl had died?"

NC:"It would have been around 9.30, 10.00, I don’t know. After I got ready and..."

GB:"Well at 9.30 on the day after the scream you learn from whom that the girl has been killed?"

NC:"From these lads running downstairs and then I saw all these big cars... no - cars, people, so I say: “Something has happened here”, but I was thinking that there had been an accident, a car smash because there often are here."

GB:"So at 9.30 you find out these things, then you go out and what happens ... at what time do you see Amanda and Raffaele?"

NC:"While I was doing the housework I looked out onto my terrace and I saw those two who were kissing."


It was useful for Massei's narrative. However, it is a matter of recorded fact that Time of Death was taken by Massei as the midpoint of pathologist, Lalli's, professional possible time range estimate.

Bear in mind Mez was not found for another 14 - 15 hours after her estimated TOD, and the autopsy performed circa 23:00-00:00 later that night.

23:00- ish is the time Amanda claimed to have had a meal on the murder night (how convenient, an alibi!) and claimed she saw blood on Raff's hand (she really likes to put people in it!).
 
It was useful for Massei's narrative. However, it is a matter of recorded fact that Time of Death was taken by Massei as the midpoint of pathologist, Lalli's, professional possible time range estimate.

Bear in mind Mez was not found for another 14 - 15 hours after her estimated TOD, and the autopsy performed circa 23:00-00:00 later that night.

23:00- ish is the time Amanda claimed to have had a meal on the murder night (how convenient, an alibi!) and claimed she saw blood on Raff's hand (she really likes to put people in it!).

Ah yes, the mythical mushroom party. Lalli never found a mushroom in Meredith's esophagus. Whatever it was resembled a mushroom fragment.
In other words, he guessed. So you have one more half-truth (if that) for your mountain of "evidence". And the timing of the digestive process starts at the beginning, not the end of the meal.:eusa_snooty:
 
I think it would be educational to see a communicated case from the ECHR to a respondent country, in part to see the balance of generality and specificity that may be found in at least the first set of ECHR questions.

The following is a recent case against Russia. It has some similarities in the complaints to those which I suspect Amanda has lodged against Italy, such as violations of Convention Article 3 and 6.1 with 6.3c. The alleged mistreatment of the suspect in the Russian case is much more physically abusive, however. I have selected a Russian case in part because these are usually communicated in English, while the Italian cases are usually communicated in French.

See: http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3162
post of 7/23/2015 5:54 pm; or the original on HUDOC

FIRST SECTION

Application no. 5659/10
Aleksey Valeryevich REZNIKOV
against Russia
lodged on 30 December 2009

..... {Statement of Facts omitted for brevity}

QUESTIONS TO THE PARTIES

1.1. Was there a violation of Article 3 of the Convention on account of the alleged torture?

In addressing the above question the parties are requested to deal, inter alia, with the following points:

(a) Once in the hands of the authorities:

(i) Was the applicant informed of his rights? If so, when, and what rights was he informed about? What was the applicant’s procedural status?

(ii) Was he given the possibility of informing a family member, friend, etc. about his detention and his location and, if so, when?

(iii) Was he given access to a lawyer and, if so, when?

(iv) Was he given access to a doctor and, if so, when and was his medical examination conducted out of the hearing and out of sight of police officers and other non‑medical staff?

(b) Where was the applicant held between 2 and 4 July 2008? Was the applicant given access to a lawyer during this period of time (please, submit the relevant documents)?

1.2. Did the applicant’s allegations give rise to an effective investigation? In particular:

(a) When did the authorities become aware or ought to be aware of the presence of injuries on the applicant’s body? Did the arresting officers make reports concerning use of force during the applicant’s arrest? When did the authorities start a preliminary inquiry (доследственная проверка)?

(b) Was a forensic medical examination (судебно-медицинская экспертиза) carried out in order to establish, inter alia, harm to the applicant’s health and the possible origin and time of infliction of his injuries? Was it carried out speedily?

(c) Was the effectiveness of the inquiry undermined in the absence of a decision to initiate criminal proceedings (возбуждение уголовного дела) in reply to the applicant’s allegations (see Lyapin v. Russia, no. 46956/09, §§ 129-140, 24 July 2014)?

(d) Was the effectiveness of the inquiry adversely affected by narrowing its scope to the crimes under Articles 285 and 286 of the Criminal Code rather than under its other provisions directly relating to causing bodily harm, for instance?

(e) Which officers from which public authorities were involved in the inquiry into the applicant’s complaints of ill-treatment? Were they independent of the persons who were allegedly implicated in the applicant’s ill‑treatment? In particular, was there hierarchical, logistical, organisational or another interdependence between the inquiring authorities, on one hand, and officers E., N. and A. and investigator P., on the other? What operational and other activities did they carry out in the course of the above inquiry?

(f) Did the authorities provide a plausible explanation for the applicant’s injuries?

Having regard to Article 38 of the Convention, the respondent Government are requested to submit a copy of the file(s) relating to the preliminary inquiry in relation to the applicant’s allegations of ill-treatment; the applicant’s confession statement, the interview record of 3 July 2008 and the record of the crime scene inspection.

2. Was there a violation of Article 6 of the Convention on account of the use made of the applicant’s confession statement (явка с повинной) and his admissions made during the interview and the crime scene inspection on 3 July 2008? Were the applicant’s right to remain silent and the privilege against self-incrimination violated in the present case?
 
That has to be balderdash. Are you seriously saying the head honcho forensic scientist at Rome had no forensic training? Bah! In England there are plenty of talented science masters eager to join the forensic squads, so why would the cops choose an amateur in such an important case, where the eyes of the world are watching, and there are plenty of red hot boffs?

Yes the fact that you find it difficult to believe does not make it untrue.
In the UK forensic scientists will usually have a degree in science often chemistry, and a specific masters in forensic science, they will then be entry level forensic scientists, but will require further training. Some like Prof. Gill go on and get PhD.

The system is not the same in Italy.

Sefanoni background was in biomedical research using DNA techniques. She was brought in to the Police Science lab to give them some expertise in DNA. In an interview she specifically mentions one of the ways her training at university could have been improved was some training in forensic science, clearly indicating that she had no training in forensic science prior to her appointment. At the time the laboratory had no external quality assurance, it is not clear there was even internal quality assurance. She had had no attachments to established services e.g. FBI or UK forensic science service to see how established services functioned. She had no experience in LCN work. There is no record she underwent any training in crime scene investigation, quite a different process from being the laboratory based scientist she was. let alone to be the senior investigator on site directing the investigation at a major crime such as a murder.

Was this why it was so badly investigated? Why critical evidence was left behind? Why no fibre analysis was done? Why shoe print and footprint analysis was done by inappropriate people?

You may want Stef to be both a great field investigator and laboratory scientist the truth is she was neither. The evidence of her lack of expertise is clear in both areas. This is not her fault. Comments made around this case indicate that formal training in forensic science was generally lacking in Italy. The responsibility for ensuring her training and standard meeting was the director of her laboratory. She may have been no worse than many others doing similar jobs. One of the responsibilities of the judiciary is to ensure minimal standards in forensic science by refusing to accept evidence that did not derive from work meeting those standards.
 
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You may want Stef to be both a great field investigator and laboratory scientist the truth is she was neither. The evidence of her lack of expertise is clear in both areas. This is not her fault. Comments made around this case indicate that formal training in forensic science was generally lacking in Italy. The responsibility for ensuring her training and standard meeting was the director of her laboratory. She may have been no worse than many others doing similar jobs. One of the responsibilities of the judiciary is to ensure minimal standards in forensic science by refusing to accept evidence that did not derive from work meeting those standards.


Was she simply attempting to deliver the 'evidence' requested of her?
 
The issue is, what does "La Dott.ssa Patrizia Stefanoni" refer to?

From Wikipedia:

For me the issue is more: Is she qualified and well regarded? It would seem from my Google that she was teaching a class or at least giving lecture.

IIRC she had gone to Indonesia after the tidal wave to help ID people in 2004.

Before anybody comes unglued I think the ICSI work was horrible at every phase.

I wished that one PGP would come here and say: Okay, the CSI work sucked and the knife and bra clasp shouldn't have made it into the trial. They should also have excluded Curatolo, Nara and Quintavalle, as they did Cristian T.

Btw, Nara was interviewed in Nov. 27, 2007 by the police. Someone here said it was months after the deed but not true.

I would like to see Nara's and Filomena's statements translated. (Hint, hint ;))

Anyway the PGP should drop Curatolo as he makes any scenario not work.

And the tow truck left at 11:25 not later.

Any other verification of the Koko drunkenness story? Maybe he was so upset for being involved in a murder he medicated.
 
First it was "in the order of a few hundred picograms" at the pre-trial then at the trial she couldn't remember.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/raffaeles-kitchen-knife/

False.

This is a lie.
Among other lies, it's a proven fact that eve Stefanoni's statement is spun, misquoted (by Vecchiotti & pro-Knoxes).

Truth is: Stefanoni *clearly* says "I don't remember". Then defence lawyer asks her to give a personal estimation ("secondo lei").
Also, lawyer presents the question as a choice between two options, two magnitude scales (was it "nanogram" magnitude or "picogram" magnitude?).

Stefanoni answers (she is being asked about her own estimation, bear in mind) that it is in the "hundreds of picograms" (therefore, in between the options presented by the lawyer).
Stefanoni's estimation, by the way, happens to be correct (this magnitude is confirmed by calculation, considering concentration based on sensitivity threshold of instrument and volume of sample in microliters).

After that, Stefanoni points out herself that the sample could ("sure!") be a "Low copy number" (although witten transcript deposited has "inc" = "incoprehensible" where Stefanoni says "LCN", this is in recording).

In addition to all this, every person should always bear in mind that Stefanoni performed laboratory tests and lab findings under supervision and testimony of prof. Potenza and anyway under "incidente probatorio" procedure, where defence experts share a responsability of being present and document actions.


 
For me the issue is more: Is she qualified and well regarded? It would seem from my Google that she was teaching a class or at least giving lecture.

IIRC she had gone to Indonesia after the tidal wave to help ID people in 2004.

Before anybody comes unglued I think the ICSI work was horrible at every phase.

That is an equally valid question. The rider to that kind of question should be, "by whom?"

Clearly Stefanoni was not regarded highly by Conti & Vecchiotti. Now that Machiavelli is back, maybe he can explain to us:

1) his reason for claiming Stefanoni has a research doctorate?
2) why he only way to defend Stefanoni is not to point to positive claims about her, but to vilify Vecchiotti and accuse C&V of crimes?
3) why the RIS Carabinieri at the Nencini trial followed what might be called standard procedure in bringing ALL data to court in relation to Sample 36I, but Stefanoni would only present data to the defence in her own lab, with her own equipment, and on her own terms? How is THAT full disclosure?​
Still - yes, it would be interesting to see how she is/was regarded, regardless of education.

ETA - it would also be nice of Machiavelli to explain why Judge Nencini was right in his claim that Stefanoni did not engage in a suspect-centric investigation, when he himself draws obvious suspect-centric conclusions about the DNA evidence, as per upthread. (Namely, forget contamination, the real issue is that Raffele's DNA was found. Who cares if unidentified people also have their DNA there?)
 
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False.

This is a lie.
Among other lies, it's a proven fact that eve Stefanoni's statement is spun, misquoted (by Vecchiotti & pro-Knoxes).

Truth is: Stefanoni *clearly* says "I don't remember". Then defence lawyer asks her to give a personal estimation ("secondo lei").
Also, lawyer presents the question as a choice between two options, two magnitude scales (was it "nanogram" magnitude or "picogram" magnitude?).

Stefanoni answers (she is being asked about her own estimation, bear in mind) that it is in the "hundreds of picograms" (therefore, in between the options presented by the lawyer).
Stefanoni's estimation, by the way, happens to be correct (this magnitude is confirmed by calculation, considering concentration based on sensitivity threshold of instrument and volume of sample in microliters).

After that, Stefanoni points out herself that the sample could ("sure!") be a "Low copy number" (although witten transcript deposited has "inc" = "incoprehensible" where Stefanoni says "LCN", this is in recording).

In addition to all this, every person should always bear in mind that Stefanoni performed laboratory tests and lab findings under supervision and testimony of prof. Potenza and anyway under "incidente probatorio" procedure, where defence experts share a responsability of being present and document actions.


[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_4347455b24c40a19a7.jpg[/qimg]

I'm not quite sure what your point is. You are confirming that Stefanoni showed up in court as the prosecution's star expert witness, wholly unprepared for the testimony she was there to give and wildly over estimated a quantification figure as a result. You would have thought, would you not, that she might have committed one or two salient facts to memory.

Additionally, I don't suppose you have much of a defence to offer for the fact of the omissions from her official report, or an excuse for why the data dump revealed, late in the day, important evidence of an exonerating character that should have been disclosed before the Massei court sat.

Moreover, are you able to give any account for why the EDFs in this case were not routinely disclosed, particularly in the light of the later Carabinieri scientists' report, which did in fact routinely disclose them? Can you further account for why Stefanoni wrote to the judge begging him not to permit the disclosure of her raw data or why she stated in her letter that such requests were unheard of?

And while we are about it, why weren't the original results of both the bra clasp and knife sampling disclosed? Why is everybody looking at the do overs without the originals?
 
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In addition to all this, every person should always bear in mind that Stefanoni performed laboratory tests and lab findings under supervision and testimony of prof. Potenza and anyway under "incidente probatorio" procedure, where defence experts share a responsability of being present and document actions.

Prove that Potenza was there for the original and re-run testing of 36b.

Prove that Potenza was there for the original and re-run testing of 165.
 
Ah yes, the mythical mushroom party. Lalli never found a mushroom in Meredith's esophagus. Whatever it was resembled a mushroom fragment.
In other words, he guessed. So you have one more half-truth (if that) for your mountain of "evidence". And the timing of the digestive process starts at the beginning, not the end of the meal.:eusa_snooty:

Early autopsy reports claimed Mez' alcohol level was three times over the legal driving limit (later retracted), so we have to wonder how much can be gleaned once rigor mortis has firmly set in.

Well, something was found in Mez' oesophagus - and I was not alluding to this - and if it looked like a mushroom and felt like one, it probably was one. Perhaps Lalli said it was a mushroom because common sense told him. Police identified it as coming from a punnet of similar ceps (?) at Raff's.
 
I'm not quite sure what your point is. You are confirming that Stefanoni showed up in court as the prosecution's star expert witness, wholly unprepared for the testimony she was there to give and wildly over estimated a quantification figure as a result. You would have thought, would you not, that she might have committed one or two salient facts to memory.

Additionally, I don't suppose you have much of a defence to offer for the fact of the omissions from her official report, or an excuse for why the data dump revealed, late in the day, important evidence of an exonerating character that should have been disclosed before the Massei court sat.

Moreover, are you able to give any account for why the EDFs in this case were not routinely disclosed, particularly in the light of the later Carabinieri scientists' report, which did in fact routinely disclose them? Can you further account for why Stefanoni wrote to the judge begging him not to permit the disclosure of her raw data or why she stated in her letter that such requests were unheard of?

And while we are about it, why weren't the original results of both the bra clasp and knife sampling disclosed? Why is everybody looking at the do overs without the originals?


Making more and more pedantic demands to the point of unreasonableness is a typical defense tactic to frustrate the evidence found.
 
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