Perhaps you would like to read a review on the subject;http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/2041-2223-1-14.pdf
Q. Why are masks important to stop DNA contamination?
A. Not because forensic scientists like to go around and lick the crime scene!
Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito
- Thread starter LondonJohn
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Perhaps you would like to read a review on the subject;http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/2041-2223-1-14.pdf
Q. Why are masks important to stop DNA contamination?
A. Not because forensic scientists like to go around and lick the crime scene!
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
That has to be balderdash. Are you seriously saying the head honcho forensic scientist at Rome had no forensic training? Bah! In England there are plenty of talented science masters eager to join the forensic squads, so why would the cops choose an amateur in such an important case, where the eyes of the world are watching, and there are plenty of red hot boffs?
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
No, I did not know Kokomani was admitted to hospital for drunkenness.
RWVBWL
Master Poster
Dry Leaves...
Hi Vixen,
For quite some time, a fellow Pro-Guilter named Briars who posted here a lot before The Supreme Court ruling would make mention that the ground was wet from rain, and so there should have been leaf debris or soil remnants on the wall if Rudy Guede climbed up the wall and then into Filomena's bedroom.
But when I read this yesterday, to ah, refresh my memory, I was aghast to learn that Nara Capezzali said it was dry leaves she heard being stepped in down below from her cozy apartment with it's closed double pane windows on that chilly Novemeber night.
Let's see what the conversation between Nara Capezzali, Judge Giancarlo Massei and PM Guilanno Mignini, and the other attorneys present went like, ok? Maybe it'll shed some light on this matter of rustlin' leaves heard late at night,
cool?
Testimony from The Massei Trial:
GM:
Did you hear any noises? ?
NC:
Then while I was going back to go to bed, I still hadn't done that, I heard noises, running on the metal stairway and running on the gravel, among the leaves, because it was in winter still, among the leaves and the gravel path of the apartment, of the cottage that is.
GM:
That’s to say the yard??
NC: Of the yard which is there beyond the cottage, the driveway of the cottage that is.
GM:
Of via della Pergola.
NC:
I heard running.?
<snip>
GM:
This the precise question I ask you, because you said it, but I want it to be clear. So the noise of the scuffling in the gravel and in the leaves, you said in the yard ...
GB:
Well, I did not hear leaves.
GM:
Well, I did.
GCM:
Yes, yes, she said leaves and gravel.
NC: Yes, dry leaves, it was getting on to winter then.
GCM:
Go ahead Prosecutor.
GM:
So you hear this noise of scuffling on the gravel and on the dry leaves and you hear the noise of footsteps ...
Link:
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Nara_Capezzali's_Testimony_(English)
ETA:
Correct me if I am wrong,
but it appears that ol' Nara says that she heard running on the gravel,
and among the leaves of Meredith's driveway(!)
from behind her closed double paned windows(!!!)
am I reading this correctly?
Hi Vixen,
For quite some time, a fellow Pro-Guilter named Briars who posted here a lot before The Supreme Court ruling would make mention that the ground was wet from rain, and so there should have been leaf debris or soil remnants on the wall if Rudy Guede climbed up the wall and then into Filomena's bedroom.
But when I read this yesterday, to ah, refresh my memory, I was aghast to learn that Nara Capezzali said it was dry leaves she heard being stepped in down below from her cozy apartment with it's closed double pane windows on that chilly Novemeber night.
Let's see what the conversation between Nara Capezzali, Judge Giancarlo Massei and PM Guilanno Mignini, and the other attorneys present went like, ok? Maybe it'll shed some light on this matter of rustlin' leaves heard late at night,
cool?
Testimony from The Massei Trial:
GM:
Did you hear any noises? ?
NC:
Then while I was going back to go to bed, I still hadn't done that, I heard noises, running on the metal stairway and running on the gravel, among the leaves, because it was in winter still, among the leaves and the gravel path of the apartment, of the cottage that is.
GM:
That’s to say the yard??
NC: Of the yard which is there beyond the cottage, the driveway of the cottage that is.
GM:
Of via della Pergola.
NC:
I heard running.?
<snip>
GM:
This the precise question I ask you, because you said it, but I want it to be clear. So the noise of the scuffling in the gravel and in the leaves, you said in the yard ...
GB:
Well, I did not hear leaves.
GM:
Well, I did.
GCM:
Yes, yes, she said leaves and gravel.
NC: Yes, dry leaves, it was getting on to winter then.
GCM:
Go ahead Prosecutor.
GM:
So you hear this noise of scuffling on the gravel and on the dry leaves and you hear the noise of footsteps ...
Link:
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Nara_Capezzali's_Testimony_(English)
ETA:
Correct me if I am wrong,
but it appears that ol' Nara says that she heard running on the gravel,
and among the leaves of Meredith's driveway(!)
from behind her closed double paned windows(!!!)
am I reading this correctly?
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The quantification detected no DNA. So the honest answer is ZERO.
The QUBIT has a documented lower limit of DNA concentrations of 0.2 ng/μl so given a sample size of 50μl this means the sample DNA must be less than 10ng. Stef detected a result of 0.08 ng/μl, a value which the Fluorimeter detected for sample A, so this would suggest the most likely value lies below 4ng. The RFU on the typing was below 50, which in comparison with other samples typed suggested a DNA content of below 50pg. What we do not know is if the DNA in the sample typed originated from the knife, because adequate precautions were not taken for dealing with such low levels of DNA. In addition there is no record of adequate negative controls.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
From what Nara says, she is clearly an auditory person. I am auditory which is why I learn best of all with a lecturer standing in front of me holding forth. When chatting with friends in the pub, I can often perfectly recall the songs playing on the jukebox in the background, whereas they are often oblivious, being engrossed in the conversation.
I hear woodpeckers and birds singing in the trees. Many do not.
Just because person X hears a sudden noise, there's no proof everybody else in the vicinity heard it.
When we had hurricane force gales in London, I think I was the only person who did not hear it. I set off for work in the City as usual, stepping over fallen trees, wondering why the tube was empty (I later found out only one or two lines were running) and why none of the offices had their lights on. Puzzled I approached the entrance; a security guard blocked my way and informed me of the overnight catastrophe. I went home amazed the penny hadn't even dropped!
If Nara heard a scream, she heard a scream. There is no reason to consider her a nasty busybody making up stories.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
Are you insinuating a less than professional relationship?
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
Hi Vixen,
For quite some time, a fellow Pro-Guilter named Briars who posted here a lot before The Supreme Court ruling would make mention that the ground was wet from rain, and so there should have been leaf debris or soil remnants on the wall if Rudy Guede climbed up the wall and then into Filomena's bedroom.
But when I read this yesterday, to ah, refresh my memory, I was aghast to learn that Nara Capezzali said it was dry leaves she heard being stepped in down below from her cozy apartment with it's closed double pane windows on that chilly Novemeber night.
Let's see what the conversation between Nara Capezzali, Judge Giancarlo Massei and PM Guilanno Mignini, and the other attorneys present went like, ok? Maybe it'll shed some light on this matter of rustlin' leaves heard late at night,
cool?
Testimony from The Massei Trial:
GM:
Did you hear any noises? ?
NC:
Then while I was going back to go to bed, I still hadn't done that, I heard noises, running on the metal stairway and running on the gravel, among the leaves, because it was in winter still, among the leaves and the gravel path of the apartment, of the cottage that is.
GM:
That’s to say the yard??
NC:
Of the yard which is there beyond the cottage, the driveway of the cottage that is.
GM:
Of via della Pergola.
NC:
I heard running.?
<snip>
GM:
This the precise question I ask you, because you said it, but I want it to be clear. So the noise of the scuffling in the gravel and in the leaves, you said in the yard ...
GB:
Well, I did not hear leaves.
GM:
Well, I did.
GCM:
Yes, yes, she said leaves and gravel.
NC: Yes, dry leaves, it was getting on to winter then.
GCM:
Go ahead Prosecutor.
GM:
So you hear this noise of scuffling on the gravel and on the dry leaves and you hear the noise of footsteps ...
Link:
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Nara_Capezzali's_Testimony_(English)
ETA:
Correct me if I am wrong,
but it appears that ol' Nara says that she heard running on the gravel of Meredith's driveway,
am I reading this correctly?
Here in Europe we have clear seasons. October/November does mean extensive shedding of deciduous leaves.
I was clearing the drive of my parent's home in the far north daily. The sheer volume of leaf fall was amazing, to me as a city dweller used to council personnel sweeping the roads.
Even if it rains. the piles of leaves raked up to the sides of the path might only be superficially wet on top.
OK Nara mistakenly said 11:00 am instead of 1:00 pm and it was three weeks later. However, I have no reason to believe she set out to lie.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
No biggie,
I hadn't talked with him since the early '80's when he left me stranded in Hawaii
without a plane ticket home after I surfed in the U.S. Championships.
But if you ever fly into LAX,
well ol' Kenny was 1 of the dudes who built this odd lookin' buildin' there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_Building
back in '61 right before I was born the next year here in L.A.
Somewhere in our Family's photo collection there's a pic of him shirtless,
sittin' on the top before it was finished.
That's 1 of his Grandsons in my current avatar,
sittin' with me on the beach near Santa Monica Pier recently,
too bad that ******* never got to meet Ashton, he's pretty cool...
Construction workers are of a different breed, I guess.
As are homeless hard core drug users who are also drug dealers.
The things these folks will do...
Vixen,
I posted this yesterday:
Question – Then what happened that morning?
Answer – That morning while I was cleaning the house, I heard the boys coming downstairs running, saying: “Signora, signora, they have killed a girl over there in that cottage”; “Not really – I say – you lot are always carrying on!”, “No, no, I’m telling you the truth̀!” In fact they all ran to go and see, but I didn’t go because I’m not like that. Then after I went out to get the bread…
BUT I left something out,
something that you might not know of.
What do you make of this?!!!?
Question – About what time?
Answer – It would have been around eleven, and I stopped at the newsstand and there were already these posters which talked about this girl and then I said: “Oh God, I heard it then, it was this girl”
Question – But I wanted to ask you something, on this poster, when you say all the names, whose names? Meredith, and then whose names?
Answer – Of Meredith who was killed, of Sollecito, the girl. The black lad and that other tall one.
Question – So the names of Sollecito, Knox, Guede and Lumumba, these four names?
Answer – Yes.
Question – So these four names you read them on the poster which you see not the day after, but the day after that day?
Answer – The day after.
Question – The call to the police, the one you make, you don’t remember the day, here it takes place in the next statement of the 27th, the statement means the summary of what you did, so it shows on the 27th that you have telephoned and they ask you: “Why did you call the police only today?” and that is November 26th. How long had passed from when you had the memories? Was it two or three days or longer?
Answer – I don’t remember, perhaps even longer, some days longer, but I don’t remember.
Question – Madam many days had passed.
Answer – Yes, because I didn’t know what to do, it’s not easy.
* * *
I mentioned that I had to deal with a rape accusation in court.
It was the details, Vixen, the minute details that often tripped up this woman's accusation against me.
As it is so with Nara Capezzali:
When Nara woke up the next morning and was told by some guys a girl had been murdered in the cottage she didn’t mention hearing a scream.
Nara said she saw posters about Meredith’s death around 11am even though her body wasn’t discovered until after 1pm.
Nara saw the names of Lumumba, Knox, Sollecito and Guede on posters on November 3.
Nara didn’t report hearing the scream for 25 days, and her excuse was:
"I didn’t know what to do, it’s not easy"!
And you call it not wanting to rubberneck,
+ believe her???
Link:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredith-kercher-scream-compromised-witness/
What an amazing building. It must be painful for you every time you look at it.
To be honest, Nara's testimony on its own probably meant diddly. It was the sum of all the parts Massei looked at.
RWVBWL
Master Poster
Painfull?
Surely you jest, I give it the middle finder and laugh
as I sometimes drive by or head outta town and see it,
hahaha!
Because some 20 odd years later, at his funeral,
my 2 sisters said the dude, simply the sperm donor,
I like to say, that created me, wanted to re-connect with his only son,
F. THAT!
Maybe if you ever fly inta L.A.
you might remember discussing this horrible rape + murder of an English girl with me,
RW
Vixen said:
Hi Vixen,
Have a look up above at my re-edited post,
with highlight and bolding added...
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong,
BUT
it appears from her Court Testimony that ol' Nara Capezzali
states that she heard running on the gravel and among the leaves,
nope, not from below her apartment,
but from Meredith Kercher's driveway!
No way anyone would have heard that from behind closed double paned windows,
nor a blood curdling scream(*) from the cottage with the cottage door closed
and Filomena's window not broken yet,
ya know, to stage the Crime Scene...
* - Heck,
I mentioned the other day that I've been listenin' to some old '70's English metal, right?
I betcha a young Rob Halford of Judas Priest fame couldn't even scream loud enough
from inside Meredith kercher's bedroom, with the apartment doors and windows closed and unbroken,
for ol' Nara Capezzali to hear.
Toto,
maybe...
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acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2012
- Messages
- 39,535
More absolute nonsense. You seem to believe you and Nara have super human hearing. More like a dog perhaps? What you are arguing is simply not possible even for a young person. Also, it's a fact that our hearing degrades over the years.Through a double pane window from a hundred plus feet away hear three people running on gravel and leaves.
Surely ye jest?
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Strozzi
Graduate Poster
Koko was hallucinating. He had abused his body with alcohol and had at that time cirrhosis of the liver.
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zotz
Thinker
Not true! Mignini's time of death theory was based on it. Without Nara the 11:30 TOD has no basis. The exchange below shows Nara claiming to have learned about Meredith's murder at 9:30 AM on November 2.
She is obviously confused throughout her testimony. She also got confused about the day she heard the scream and Nara also testified seeing Meredith one day with a fat lip as if she’d been punched.
G. Bongiorno: "And about eleven these lads tell you that a girl has been killed."
N. Cappezzali:"No, no, they told me that earlier on, but I came back later."
GB:"First of all, at what time did you learn this girl had died?"
NC:"It would have been around 9.30, 10.00, I don’t know. After I got ready and..."
GB:"Well at 9.30 on the day after the scream you learn from whom that the girl has been killed?"
NC:"From these lads running downstairs and then I saw all these big cars... no - cars, people, so I say: “Something has happened here”, but I was thinking that there had been an accident, a car smash because there often are here."
GB:"So at 9.30 you find out these things, then you go out and what happens ... at what time do you see Amanda and Raffaele?"
NC:"While I was doing the housework I looked out onto my terrace and I saw those two who were kissing."
Ken Dine
Muse
No one knows how much of Kercher's DNA was found on the knife (if any), not even Stefanoni, so we need to read between the lines.
LCN testing is so sensitive it can be done with as few as 5 cells. However, since those 5 cells need to be split up into 3 parts (to be considered scientific testing), and since there was (supposedly) not enough DNA on the knife to be split into 3 parts, at most there was likely just a cell or two on the knife.
Even if a few cells on the knife were Kercher's cells, LCN testing is so sensitive that it requires special clean labs to avoid contamination, and Stefanoni's lab was NOT a purposely constructed ultra clean LCN testing lab!
Strozzi
Graduate Poster
Stefanoni is environmentally conscious. She recycles. She uses the same rubber gloves over and over and over.
Kauffer
Master Poster
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You might be on to something there. I've looked and can't find anything. Perhaps you'll have more luck. Let us know when you've found something. According to you, this should be simple.
In the meantime, you will doubtless agree that the qualifications of expert witnesses are disclosable in common law systems. More than that, you'd think she'd like to show off her expertise - if it actually exists.
But, was she the "chief"?
Last edited:
Kauffer
Master Poster
- Joined
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It's interesting you cite Jamieson. He and Balding are on opposite sides of the debate over LCN work.
Kauffer
Master Poster
- Joined
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Well. Go find the evidence. Your evidence less ruminations have little value.
Didn't you say it was simple?
Nobody can get hold of Stefanoni's qualifications, it seems. Perhaps you are more gifted.
If she was the head honcho, that would mean she had no boss. Hmmm
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2011
- Messages
- 15,713
This is a perfect illustration of the guilter, suspect-centric world. More tragically for all Italians, the situation within parts of its judiciary.
When needed to be dry, you make them dry leaves so that they can be heard. When needed to be wet, you make them wet-leaves so that the absence of marks on a wall or in the room will invalidate a competitor's theory.
No guilter, and no one on Massei's or Nencini's panel would ever think - "what's the evidence here telling us?" Why would they never think that way?
It's precisely as Nencini said in his motivations report. in 2014 - the whole point was to find Raffaele Sollecito guilty, because he was the suspect.
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
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As to Nencini's judicial ability to handle issues of suspect-centrism, consider the following from page 247-248 of his motivations.
This needs to be read three or four times before one "gets" why Nencini is claiming that Prof. Tagliabracci’s criticism is wrong, unproven and simply an unprovable suspicion.
It may only be of peripheral importance to the point Nencini (wrongly) makes.... but just 4 pages before this discussion he's already discounted contamination on the bra-clasp as being unimportant because....
Suspect-centric reasoning in the raw. The fact of him being present on the evening of the murder, then means that the sole piece of evidence proving him there, must prove him there, because of this prior fact.
Nencini simply waves away Prof. Tagliabracci’s criticism of suspect-centric DNA investigation by saying, essentially, "but it WAS Raffaele, so the evidence must point to him."
This needs to be read three or four times before one "gets" why Nencini is claiming that Prof. Tagliabracci’s criticism is wrong, unproven and simply an unprovable suspicion.
It may only be of peripheral importance to the point Nencini (wrongly) makes.... but just 4 pages before this discussion he's already discounted contamination on the bra-clasp as being unimportant because....
Suspect-centric reasoning in the raw. The fact of him being present on the evening of the murder, then means that the sole piece of evidence proving him there, must prove him there, because of this prior fact.
Nencini simply waves away Prof. Tagliabracci’s criticism of suspect-centric DNA investigation by saying, essentially, "but it WAS Raffaele, so the evidence must point to him."
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