Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Katody Matrass]

Bill!

I am still on lockdown from Mrs C! She is down in Spain with the girls for a week, so who knows I might post again. However, Vixen is keeping folk on their toes, condemnation of Vixens posts whilst feeling the need to respond is wonderful.

Like everyone here, I am impatient to read “legal” decision for the verdict way back in March and as for this slow motion “ECHR slam dunk” case law “woolly mammoth; howzat!, well, erm well!?

I am wondering; is the ECHR waiting for the Italian Supreme Court motivations report Or (nested Or) is the Italian Supreme Court waiting for ECHR.

Dear I say 2017!!

No way! CoulsdonUK!

Isn't it wonderful that this case is finally over?
The kids' innocence is finally recognized, they're happy and free forever

I remember you saying on and on that only what the court says matters for you. The highest court possible spoke and ended this awful injustice, don't you agree?

What's with the quotation marks? Do I read them correctly as a 180 degrees change of mind on your part? Disappointing if so...

Vixen' whackamole roundabout is making me chuckle and yawn at the same time, too. Is it even possible?

 

[Kauffer]

Does anyone know if the rock Rudy used to break in through Filomena's window was ever tested for finger prints or DNA?

They did test it after the defence insisted - they declared nothing, IIRC.

 

[Planigale]

Salt (sodium chloride) has a density of 2.17 gm per cubic centimetre, or 2170 micrograms, or 0.002170

You state one grain is about 0.0000585 gms and the Mez DNA on the knife was 0.0000002925 gms.

The smallest virus is visible under the microscope and is as little as 18 nanometres (a parvovirus). There are roughly 8,300,000 nanometres in a centimetre, with a density of 1.31 gms/cubic cm. So if one parvovirus can weigh (18/8,300,000)*1.31 and can be seen (as in medical diagnosis in rate of infection), what makes you think a piece of tissue yielding DNA weighing 1/500 "of a grain of salt", is particularly small?

I can see no compelling reason to believe Dr. Stefanoni got her near full profile of Mez (15 allelles, when the legal standard in the UK is just 11) by chance. The odds are so vanishingly remote to be smaller than the most nano of nanometres.

Pathetic I know but I cannot let this go. The largest viruses (megavruses) are visible under a microscope about 1 micron dia. The smallest viruses are not. One needs to use an electron microscope to image most viruses. the smallest is a circovirus 17nm dia. Parvoviruses are small at about 20 nm.

There are exactly 1 x 10⁷ (ten million) nanometers in a centimetre. The limit of naked eye visions about 100 micron (100,000 nm). The limit of vision with an optical microscope is about 0.2 micron (200nm).

The DNA content of a single human cell is about 6 pg mass, or 2m (6 feet) in length. The nucleus containing the DNA plus other stuff is around 5 micron diameter.

It makes more sense to consider the DNA found in terms of the DNA in human cells. Lymphocytes (white cells) in blood might be 10 micron dia. and are mostly nucleus.

One microlitre of blood (a cube 1mm on each side ) contains about 10,000 WBC. The WBC contain the DNA in the blood. there are roughly a thousand times more red cells. In one microlitre there are about 5 million red cells containing 270 million haemoglobin molecules per RBC. The content of haemoglobin which is what Luminol / TMB tests for is about 100 microgram / microlitre. In comparison DNA content is about 60 nanogram - a thousand times less.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Not even a glass breakage expert would be able to get a 12inch 9kg boulder through the gap of a half-closed shutter, as police found it.

What makes you believe that when the rock went through the window that the shutters were in the same position as the police found them? Could the shutters not move? This argument is as crazy as the one that showed an ambulance at the Pentagon on 9/11 and then claimed that the photos were faked because it had moved between shots.

Incredible to imagine anyone scrambling up an 11 foot wall with a boulder in their pocket.

Seriously? What world do you live in? The window is approximately the same level as the car park and only a few metres from it. Why climb up the wall when you have a clear and basic shot at throwing the rock through the window from the car park and then retreat back up to the drive to see if there is any reaction?

You seem to live in a fantasy world where people don't have the ability to do things the easy way.

 

[Strozzi]

The Washington Post has an article about men who harass women online. The article is based on a study of online gamers conducted by researchers at the University of New South Wales and Miami University (USA). It shows that men who harass women online tend to have problems securing or maintaining their own social status. Dr. Mull, are you reading this?

You may see the Washington Post's article at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2015/07/20/men-who-harass-women-online-are-quite-literally-losers-new-study-finds/?hpid=z7

 

[Grinder]

Of course that was the Perugian cop Shaq O'Nealio handling that little stone. AK and RS just couldn't foresee that the ILE were going to frame them. Sorry Grinder. Most recent posts are just not that noteworthy, but the link to the photos was a great one.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/window.html

Check out that massive boulder. Sheesh. I have tried to skip pebbles about that size. And prob got just one skip out of it, but easy one handed throw.

And the picture of the typical messy college room made me laugh about all the machinations of Mach about what a burglar would do and how that was obviously staged. ROFLMAO. I trust that soon we can see the word liar typed out for us. Oh, how bout malicious liar?

Filomena wasn't a college student and you probably would have been the laugh of the PRSC (Perugian Rock Skipping Club).

The rock is about the half the weight and size of a brick which could be thrown with relative ease by an in shape yute (sic). Ease through a window but not a one-handed skip.

 

[Vixen]

Not wikipedia at all.

The word "land" is derived from the Swedish "lund". To form a court of law cum government, twelve of the land elders came to decisions.

Wiki backs me up:

According to George Macaulay Trevelyan in A Shortened History of England (1959), during the Viking occupation: “The Scandinavians, when not on the Viking warpath, were a litigious people and loved to get together in the 'thing' to hear legal argument. They had no professional lawyers, but many of their farmer-warriors, like Njal, the truth-teller, were learned in folk custom and in its intricate judicial procedure. A Danish town in England often had, as its principal officers, twelve hereditary ‘law men’. The Danes introduced the habit of making committees among the free men in court, which perhaps made England favorable ground for the future growth of the jury system out of a Frankish custom later introduced by the Normans.”

The English king Æthelred the Unready issued a legal code at Wantage, which states that the twelve leading thegns (minor nobles) of each wapentake (a small district) were required to swear that they would investigate crimes without bias. These 'juries' differed from the present-day kind by being self-informing; instead of getting information through a trial, the jurors were required to investigate the case themselves.[1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_trial_by_jury_in_England

Thus, whilst Latin Europe, Italy, Spain and France in particular developed an inquisitorial system of law (cf Spanish Inquisition) Northern Europe gave birth to the Anglo-Saxon trial by jury, and as exported to our old colony, America.

English itself is derived from Old English, a form of low German dialect (closest relation today, Freisian). Even today, in most sentences, eight out of ten words are pure anglo-saxon. The rest being French (from the invading Normans in C10), Latin, Greek derived, and even has loan Indian and Arabic words.

Whilst the Italian legal system is frustrating to us Brits and Yanks, it's worked well throughout the ages for the latin Europeans. It is in reform now.

Amanda and Raff have much to be grateful for. In the US it would likely have been life without parole, or in Washington state (Seattle) the death penalty, on much less evidence; in England, "life" (= out after nine years, on parole). Appeal refused.

 

[Vixen]

Some questions:

1. Why was she performing these tests in a lab not certified for LCN testing?

2. Why won't she show her work? She still has not released the EDFs.

3. Why did she conceal the 'too low' LCN testing results?

4. Why did she conceal the negative results obtained by TMB testing of the hallway 'footprints'?

These questions are more defense-style semantics, than any proven issues of "incompetence". It's the OJ Simpson version of, "my client's glove does not fit, therefore, he cannot be the murderer".

 

[skbuncks]

No. It's more a case of 'there is no glove'.

 

[Grinder]

Vixen while you're here - What test for blood did they use on Lizzie?

It is crucial for the prosecution here (you) that you establish the feasibility of a knife,cleaned with bleach as they would certainly use it on the knife if they used it anywhere, and scrubbed ending up testing negative for blood but producing "quality" DNA.

From Massei:

She stated that the other knives that were analysed were kept separate. She reaffirmed that on the blade of knife Exhibit 36 a striation was visible but ‚placing the exhibit under a source of illumination < like the conventional sort that has a Reprovit, which is the instrument we use for photography; it was possible to observe it only by placing it under a strong spotlight and by changing the angle at which the light hit the blade, it was only in this way that these striations became visible to the naked eye < photos were attempted but it was too reflective < only white spots of light came out‛

Now if something is stuck in a grove, it must be as big as the grove or it wouldn't be stuck. So how small could this discovery have been? I'm not the genius others here are but I'm thinking the sample would have had to weigh more than 100 picograms if it could be seen my the naked eye. And Vixen if the defense expert had made a claim such as seeing a sample in a grove as above in the defense of the kids you'd be howling in protest. And rightly so.

Off to paint.

 

[Anode]

The rock was 9 lbs and not 9 kg (which would be 20 lbs).

The only thing 12" long is your nose by now.

As can be seen in these pictures the cop easily picked up the rock with one hand in order to bag it:

[qimg]http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/publishImages/window~~element213.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/publishImages/window~~element214.jpg[/qimg]

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/window.html

Wow, great pic Ken. That looks like the perfect size rock to break the window with. Large enough so that its momentum would carry through the window and frame but not too large to be able to handle it. That does look too large for a petite woman to toss but a big strong guy would have no problem. (MOO)

 

[Vixen]

<fx broad Brummie accent> I'm doing it!

OK, here are a couple of other high profile cases were scant DNA evidence was enough to convict (blood being excluded by Grinder in his criteria):

In the Stephen Lawrence case, police applied sticky tape to clothing and one hair which matched the DNA of Stephen Lawrence was found on David Norris' jeans.

Note: this was collected well beyond 42 days later, as in the current case.

In addition:

A spot of blood 0.5mm x 0.25mm was found soaked into the collar - it also matched Stephen's DNA.
In the past, DNA testing on such tiny samples of blood and hairs was not possible so forensic experts wouldn't normally have looked for them in the first place.
But new forensic techniques developed since 2000 helped LGC bag the vital evidence and counter claims that the clothing could have been contaminated.
"The DNA that was available as part of the initial investigation - back in the 90's - they wouldn't have been able to analyse that microscopic stain," says Edward Jarman, Lead Scientist at LGC Forensics.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/16409283/how-forensics-solved-stephen-lawrence-murder


The other case is (same link) that of Paula Yeates:

It also worked on the Joanna Yeates case, helping enhance the weak DNA samples found with her body and link the murder to Vincent Tabak.
As well as laboratory work, LGC also has a 'call out' service for crime scenes; firearms specialists who can help identify weapons and ammunition; and a digital forensics team who help gather evidence from devices like computers and phones.
During the Milly Dowler investigation it helped Surrey Police analyse CCTV footage and pinpoint when and where the schoolgirl disappeared, as well as identifying the car driven by her murderer Levi Bellfield.

So, Lawrence, Yeates and the Lundy case.

Grinder, do you still want to argue, "Stefanoni could not have identified Mez' DNA on such a small sample of DNA"?

 

[Diocletus]

In the US it would likely have been life without parole, or in Washington state (Seattle) the death penalty, on much less evidence; in England, "life" (= out after nine years, on parole). Appeal refused.

LOL . . . "appeal refused". You must be referring to a discretionary appeal that is attempted after the mandatory appeals, other appeals that are granted, and habeus corpus.

 

[Desert Fox]

Wiki backs me up:
Amanda and Raff have much to be grateful for. In the US it would likely have been life without parole, or in Washington state (Seattle) the death penalty, on much less evidence; in England, "life" (= out after nine years, on parole). Appeal refused.

And that is something we are trying to fix

 

[Vixen]

Vixen while you're here - What test for blood did they use on Lizzie?

It is crucial for the prosecution here (you) that you establish the feasibility of a knife,cleaned with bleach as they would certainly use it on the knife if they used it anywhere, and scrubbed ending up testing negative for blood but producing "quality" DNA.

From Massei:

She stated that the other knives that were analysed were kept separate. She reaffirmed that on the blade of knife Exhibit 36 a striation was visible but ‚placing the exhibit under a source of illumination < like the conventional sort that has a Reprovit, which is the instrument we use for photography; it was possible to observe it only by placing it under a strong spotlight and by changing the angle at which the light hit the blade, it was only in this way that these striations became visible to the naked eye < photos were attempted but it was too reflective < only white spots of light came out‛

Now if something is stuck in a grove, it must be as big as the grove or it wouldn't be stuck. So how small could this discovery have been? I'm not the genius others here are but I'm thinking the sample would have had to weigh more than 100 picograms if it could be seen my the naked eye. And Vixen if the defense expert had made a claim such as seeing a sample in a grove as above in the defense of the kids you'd be howling in protest. And rightly so.

Off to paint.

We established the Mez' DNA at your purported "1/500" of a grain of salt weighing 5.82 g /cubic gram, was 29200 picograms, which meets your self-reported criterion of being >100 picograms.

Being low copy number, Stef's lab were only able to perform one DNA test on it, and it was a definitively strong DNA profile of Mez, which the prosecution, defense and judges all agreed on (15 allelles; basic legal minimum being 10).

There is no question it is Mez', was on the knife blade of a kitchen knife that had been scrubbed so clean, only about five traces of organic matter could be found, and which the defense expert DNA scientists witnessed Stef performing, as is their legal right and expectation.

There are no two ways about it, the test was valid, came up with a highly significant result and is absolutely positively Mez' DNA profile beyond any doubt at all.

 

[Vixen]

What makes you believe that when the rock went through the window that the shutters were in the same position as the police found them? Could the shutters not move? This argument is as crazy as the one that showed an ambulance at the Pentagon on 9/11 and then claimed that the photos were faked because it had moved between shots.



Seriously? What world do you live in? The window is approximately the same level as the car park and only a few metres from it. Why climb up the wall when you have a clear and basic shot at throwing the rock through the window from the car park and then retreat back up to the drive to see if there is any reaction?

You seem to live in a fantasy world where people don't have the ability to do things the easy way.

By your hypothesis, Rudy must have arrived by helicopter, as that is the easiest way of all to gain access through that window.

 

[moije2]

Filomena wasn't a college student and you probably would have been the laugh of the PRSC (Perugian Rock Skipping Club).

The rock is about the half the weight and size of a brick which could be thrown with relative ease by an in shape yute (sic). Ease through a window but not a one-handed skip.

It still looks like a typical messy college student room. Whether she was just living with students and not still in school herself. Kinda surprising don't you think? I know it is well documented the transition one goes through at that with regard to "bed room orderliness". Which will support all of the near instant reactions by the po po and Mignini that this was a staged burglary. By the way, how do you stage a burglary when nothing was apparently taken? Is it because the definition of a burglary (in some jurisdictions) is breaking in with the -inent- to commit a felony? Oh, that's it. They recognized the intent.

I would hate to perpetuate the meme of rush to judgment.

Btw, why was F still living with students?


ETA: of course it could easily be thrown, one handed, through the window. Nice to see you say that. Out loud. The "boulder" hyperbole is worthy of attack. Or maybe just unnecessary at this point? OTOH, I will challenge you to a rock skipping contest. Surely you had ample water up there in the NW to do such foolishness as a kid? I can see it now: GGD (Grinder General Defense) discredited in court for hyperbolic rock skipping comment! AK and RS screwed by their incompetent rock skipping defense!

 

[Ken Dine]

Does anyone know if the rock Rudy used to break in through Filomena's window was ever tested for finger prints or DNA?

They did test it after the defence insisted - they declared nothing, IIRC.

True:

Massei, page 193:

In Filomena Romanelli's room a few items were tested: a hairlike fibre [formazione
pilifera] on the lower part of the window frame, and a presumed haematological
substance on the wooden part of the window which held the broken pane. Both of
these items yielded negative results on analysis. During the second search, on the
suggestion of the defence’s technical consultant Professor Saverio Potenza, the large
rock and two fragments found on the floor of the room were tested, but they yielded
negative results.

Interesting, that the defense had to request DNA testing of the rock, since if Raffaele's touch DNA had been found on the rock (or Amanda's), then that would certainly bolster the prosecution's case against Amanda & Raffaele.

As I recall, while the police (SUPPOSEDLY) did test the rock for DNA, the defense wasn't happy that they only swabbed and tested one tiny area of the rock.

Since touch DNA on that rock would have been crucial evidence, I suspect that they did test the rock more thoroughly and they found Guede's DNA on it, so they buried the results.

The prosecution's theory about the rock was absurd. If Raffael & Amanda did stage the break-in, then they would have had to go outside to the garden to fetch the rock, bring it inside, and bust the window from the inside. If they were already outside with the rock in hand, then why not just chuck the rock thru the window while outside?

If they wanted to stage a break-in, then why not merely unlatch the doors leading onto the balcony since that would be a believable entry point. Amanda could have claimed that one of the gals had likely forgot to latch the doors?

As for the outside shutters being closed, Filomena said at first that she had left them open, then in a subsequent interview she stated she thought she had closed them (but not tightly due to swollen wood), then later when questioned by the defense about her two versions, Filomena said her 1st version was likely true since she made it closer to when the events happened.

Even if Filomena was wrong and she had partially closed the outer shutters, it would have been easy for Guede to reach up there and open the partially closed shutters since Filomena admitted that they couldn't be latched.

 

[Vixen]

LOL . . . "appeal refused". You must be referring to a discretionary appeal that is attempted after the mandatory appeals, other appeals that are granted, and habeus corpus.

In the UK, it is vanishingly rare that persons convicted of a crime are even allowed an appeal.

 

[bagels]

We established the Mez' DNA at your purported "1/500" of a grain of salt weighing 5.82 g /cubic gram, was 29200 picograms, which meets your self-reported criterion of being >100 picograms.

Being low copy number, Stef's lab were only able to perform one DNA test on it, and it was a definitively strong DNA profile of Mez, which the prosecution, defense and judges all agreed on (15 allelles; basic legal minimum being 10).

There is no question it is Mez', was on the knife blade of a kitchen knife that had been scrubbed so clean, only about five traces of organic matter could be found, and which the defense expert DNA scientists witnessed Stef performing, as is their legal right and expectation.

There are no two ways about it, the test was valid, came up with a highly significant result and is absolutely positively Mez' DNA profile beyond any doubt at all.

Yeah the DNA on the knife was really clear cut. Amanda would have been screwed except we have to keep in mind that she's a literal miracle girl so the impossible 1 in a million chance happens with her. In this case it was being appointed two lying, incompetent, corrupt professors in her appeals trial, who trashed the DNA result, allowing her to go free. Dodged another bullet!