Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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So Vixen while you are trying to find one case where the knife produced no blood but DNA could you comment on why Steffanoni hasn't become a star like Gill in the forensic game?

Also besides the Italian police employees and Novelli are there any reputable scientists that have come out backing her work?

Could you also explain why contamination needs to be proven rather than systems and protocols that all but eliminate the possibility? Do agree with special certifications for LCN DNA work?

I don't think you ever addressed whether you understand that the alleged DNA of MK on the knife was 1/500.000 of a grain of salt.

Stefanoni is a scientific police employee. Perhaps when she retires, she will bring out her best-selling book, and become a media celeb like Dr Gill.

There's Dr David Balding at University College London. Said the Raff DNA was insurmountably Raff, beyond any shadow of doubt.

The issue of the DNA size is now addressed.
 
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I'm not confusing anything. There is no such thing in law as a colloquial suspect. But there's no need for me to lecture you on this subject. You should be able to work it out for yourself. When is the latest possible time that Amanda might legitimately be considered a witness informed of the facts rather than a suspect?

Would you agree, that it cannot be later than when the police declared to her that Raffaele had taken away her alibi? This is BEFORE she made any incriminating statement, before she signed any statement and before any alleged callunia was commited.

The latest possible time was when Amanda confessed to being at the scene of the murder, having led Patrick there, and then witnessing Patrick "having sex and killing Mez" whilst she covered her ears from Mez' bloodcurdling scream.

At this point, the interview was terminated.
 
The calunnia conviction does not make sense in terms of Italian law, which forbids using evidence that was obtained contrary to law. But the CSC pretended there was no illegal gathering of the evidence for purposes of calunnia. As I've pointed out previously, ECHR case-law strongly suggests this conviction was a violation of the Convention, and Italy will need to revise it upon request from Amanda after the ECHR judgment.

Well, Numbers, maybe you can get yourself to the witness stand to argue your point.

Don't hold your breath.
 
Vixen is not correct. There are not two categories of suspect. You are a witness or you are a suspect in Italian law, but we really don't need to be detained by Italian law because the ECHR trumps it:

If you're a suspect you get a lawyer. It's that simple. However, there is no cause of action if you are not prosecuted or if your prosecution does not rely on the product of your lawyerless interrogation. If you do not incriminate yourself, nobody arrests you and nobody prosecutes you, there is no trial and you are not adversely affected by any theoretical rights violation. Rights are "practical and effective". (See below).

The key case law is Salduz v Turkey: Everything changed in Europe after this.

"52. National laws may attach consequences to the attitude of an accused at the initial stages of police interrogation which are decisive for the prospects of the defence in any subsequent criminal proceedings. In such circumstances, Article 6 will normally require that the accused be allowed to benefit from the assistance of a lawyer already at the initial stages of police interrogation. However, this right has so far been considered capable of being subject to restrictions for good cause. The question, in each case, has therefore been whether the restriction was justified and, if so, whether, in the light of the entirety of the proceedings, it has not deprived the accused of a fair hearing, for even a justified restriction is capable of doing so in certain circumstances.

53. These principles, outlined in paragraph 52 above, are also in line with the generally recognised international human rights standards … which are at the core of the concept of a fair trial and whose rationale relates in particular to the protection of the accused against abusive coercion on the part of the authorities. They also contribute to the prevention of miscarriages of justice and the fulfilment of the aims of Article 6, notably equality of arms between the investigating or prosecuting authorities and the accused.

54. In this respect, the Court underlines the importance of the investigation stage for the preparation of the criminal proceedings, as the evidence obtained during this stage determines the framework in which the offence charged will be considered at the trial (Can v. Austria, no. 9300/81, Commission's report of 12 July 1984, § 50, Series A no. 96). At the same time, an accused often finds himself in a particularly vulnerable position at that stage of the proceedings, the effect of which is amplified by the fact that legislation on criminal procedure tends to become increasingly complex, notably with respect to the rules governing the gathering and use of evidence. In most cases, this particular vulnerability can only be properly compensated for by the assistance of a lawyer whose task it is, among other things, to help to ensure respect of the right of an accused not to incriminate himself. This right indeed presupposes that the prosecution in a criminal case seek to prove their case against the accused without resort to evidence obtained through methods of coercion or oppression in defiance of the will of the accused (see Jalloh v. Germany [GC], no. 54810/00, § 100, ECHR 2006-..., and Kolu v. Turkey, no. 35811/97, § 51, 2 August 2005). Early access to a lawyer is part of the procedural safeguards to which the Court will have particular regard when examining whether a procedure has extinguished the very essence of the privilege against self-incrimination (see, mutatis mutandis, Jalloh, cited above, § 101). In this connection, the Court also notes the recommendations of the CPT (paragraphs 39-40 above), in which the committee repeatedly stated that the right of a detainee to have access to legal advice is a fundamental safeguard against ill-treatment. Any exception to the enjoyment of this right should be clearly circumscribed and its application strictly limited in time. These principles are particularly called for in the case of serious charges, for it is in the face of the heaviest penalties that respect for the right to a fair trial is to be ensured to the highest possible degree by democratic societies.
55. Against this background, the Court finds that in order for the right to a fair trial to remain sufficiently "practical and effective" (see paragraph 51 above) Article 6 § 1 requires that, as a rule, access to a lawyer should be provided as from the first interrogation of a suspect by the police, unless it is demonstrated in the light of the particular circumstances of each case that there are compelling reasons to restrict this right. Even where compelling reasons may exceptionally justify denial of access to a lawyer, such restriction - whatever its justification - must not unduly prejudice the rights of the accused under Article 6 (see, mutatis mutandis, Magee, cited above, § 44). The rights of the defence will in principle be irretrievably prejudiced when incriminating statements made during police interrogation without access to a lawyer are used for a conviction.’"


Conversely, police do not have an obligation to caution a perp determined to make a voluntary statement.
 
The latest possible time was when Amanda confessed to being at the scene of the murder, having led Patrick there, and then witnessing Patrick "having sex and killing Mez" whilst she covered her ears from Mez' bloodcurdling scream.

At this point, the interview was terminated.

That is all well and good, but you are describing some other confession. For instance no one said, including Knox, that she witnessed Lumumba having sex with anyone.

As well, Knox was asked about potential screams, which she first said she did not hear any. When called a liar, she explained that in this fantasy she then must have covered her ears, not that she knew she did.

None of the scenario made sense. Even you now seem to admit Domino's role in this....
 
Was it really "resin" that leaked? Why would this be an issue the police were interested in? Could blood have leaked down? What room in the upstairs flat would have been above Riccardo's room?

You get resin leaking from pine beams and panelling in a sauna that's regularly heated to >100 degrees.

Certainly not in Riccardo's room.
 
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Well, Numbers, maybe you can get yourself to the witness stand to argue your point.

Don't hold your breath.

As you and others are aware, Amanda Knox has lodged a complaint against Italy with the ECHR, arguing that Italy violated her Convention rights in convicting her of calunnia against Patrick Lumumba.

We shall see what the ECHR judgment in the case will be. The case-law from Salduz v Turkey to Ibrahim et al v the UK is quite clear.

Your statement makes no sense in terms of your personalization towards me.
 
The latest possible time was when Amanda confessed to being at the scene of the murder, having led Patrick there, and then witnessing Patrick "having sex and killing Mez" whilst she covered her ears from Mez' bloodcurdling scream.

At this point, the interview was terminated.

And then Mignini continued with a second illegal interrogation.
 
From Marzan's witness statement:

A. I kept the keys from my house inside the apartment; I kept them on a metal ring.
A. I don't quite remember if I have ever handed the house keys to my friend Giorgio in the past, but definitely not recently.

Why would this come up? What are the keys to his house - the one in his home province? Or is this a reference to a set of apartment keys? Wouldn't he have taken his house keys with him? Could a set of his apartment keys have been missing?

IIRC Housemates left their keys on a hook just inside the front door (???)
 
A. Sometimes Giacomo would recount his sexual experiences with Meredith to me; in particular, he told me that he also performed oral and anal sexual acts with her.

I have a chain of hypotheses related to this statement from Marzan:

1. That Giacomo spoke to his other friends and acquaintances about his experiences with Meredith.

2. That in particular, Rudy Guede was aware of such information, and this generated an interest by Guede in Meredith and/or the other young women in the upstairs flat. (On the other hand, Guede had met both Meredith and Amanda in a visit to the downstairs flat and this could have triggered his interest.)

3. That Guede broke in to the flat with the intention of surprising Meredith or any of the women who entered, as well as seeking cash or valuables. Meredith entered the flat earlier than he had anticipated.

I am aware that these hypotheses are speculative. But such attacks by home invaders who lie in wait for their victims do happen.


Young guys bragging about sex is hardly news. Even Ted the Thunderbuddy was at it in Ted2.
 
sounds like a line off Game of Thrones...."shame! shame!" and some lashings in the street for smoking....wow, thats pretty outdated isnt it? to call smoking a "sin" seems like its behind the times a few hundred years.

In their culture (and religion), confession is the path to redemption. Rudy knew that self-recrimination would help him with the authorities (as long as he could deny the actual rape and murder) so that is why his prison diary is full of all that remorse over failing to save Meredith. In contrast, the judges were offended by Amanda's lack of contrition for her crimes even though, according to the law, she is supposed to be regarded as innocent until proven guilty.

It says something about their system when something as basic as the presumption of innocence is brushed aside by the judges!
 
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Vixen to add to your task please find a case where the murder knife showed no blood but DNA of the victim but no other DNA or blood was found on the suspects' clothing, shoes, the suspects' cars or in the domicile where the knife was found.

You believe that the kids used bleach to clean, right? Do you believe they used it on the knife? Do you remember what kind of bleach Raf had?

How many picograms did the sample on the knife weigh? How does that weight compare with the weight of particles of dust we see in sunlight?

Hi Grinder, if it was 0.0000002925 grams, then it would be 0.002925 pico grams. (1gm = 1,000 picograms.)*

No blood was found on Lizzie Borden after she almost certainly took a hatchet to her folk.

It is not unusual for no blood to be found. Perps destroy their clothes and wash thoroughly (as did Raff and Amanda [3 showers in 36 hours]).

No idea how knife was scrubbed but it was as clean as a whistle.

*ETA Later corrected = 292500 picograms.
 
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Funny Grinder. There is no need to give lawyers to suspects that aren't being interrogated. When you interview them over and over and over again and then call them in during the middle of the night...they sort of need the lawyer then, don't you think?

Riii-iight. Don't tell us, you're referring to Amanda. Riight.
 
There are a whole lot of things the defense could have done if they attacked the case more aggressively, but I think they felt they should not have to prove innocence, just assert there was no proof of guilt. It surprises me they did not realize what they were dealing with: courts who were going to insist on them proving AK and RS were not guilty!

In addition to proving that a person, similar in age and build to Rudy, would have no problem climbing up to that window, they could have hired a glass breakage expert that could prove the rock was thrown from the outside.

Not even a glass breakage expert would be able to get a 12inch 9kg boulder through the gap of a half-closed shutter, as police found it.
 
The biggest indication that Rudy intended to rape Meredith is that Meredith was raped. The idea of violent rape as an afterthought is hard for me to understand. In fact I think that scenario is very unlikely. The most often quoted statistic for unreported rapes is 65%. I read one article that claimed that the conviction rate for rape is 2%. If Rudy attacked Meredith in the dark it would have made identification very difficult. In spite of the lack of previous offenses there can be no doubt that Rudy is a murderer and a rapist.

https://news.ku.edu/2014/03/03/law-professor-more-1-million-rapes-unreported-official-us-crime-statistics


Logical fallacy: post hoc ergo propter hoc.
 
Hi Grinder, if it was 0.0000002925 grams, then it would be 0.002925 pico grams. (1gm = 1,000 picograms.)

No blood was found on Lizzie Borden after she almost certainly took a hatchet to her folk.

It is not unusual for no blood to be found. Perps destroy their clothes and wash thoroughly (as did Raff and Amanda [3 showers in 36 hours]).

No idea how knife was scrubbed but it was as clean as a whistle.


For God's sake.....

1 gram = 1,000,000,000,000 picograms.

You're displaying your mathematical ignorance.

(As you are when you assert that inflation ought to be factored in to historic foreign exchange rates. That one made me literally lol :D )
 
Not even a glass breakage expert would be able to get a 12inch 9kg boulder through the gap of a half-closed shutter, as police found it.

You talk as if the police even investigated this. They did not.

Why do you continue like this with complete ignorance of this case, displayed post after post? Please cite ONE source which claims that police investigated this?
 
Not even a glass breakage expert would be able to get a 12inch 9kg boulder through the gap of a half-closed shutter, as police found it.


And of course it's impossible :rolleyes: that whoever broke that window (i.e. Guede) might have......... wait for it.......... pulled the exterior shutters closed once he was inside Romanelli's room.

Of course what makes that scenario even more impossible :rolleyes: is that Guede closing the exterior shutters once he was inside would have prevented anyone walking past the cottage or approaching the cottage to have seen the broken window. Obviously Guede would have wanted all and sundry to have seen the broken glass, so had he thrown a rock through that window and entered that way, he would obviously have left the exterior shutters wide open once he was inside. So since the shutters were found almost closed, this therefore necessarily means that Guede couldn't have thrown the rock from outside and entered via that window.

Gotta love logic :D
 
I'm busy as the one armed paper hanger so only scanning here but have a few questions.

Were they tapping 80+ people and 5 places before the fifth?

Why would the police suppress the downstairs info to help Rudi when they produced so much info upstairs to convict him?

RW the shoe print on wet semen picture I haven't looked at but have no doubt you are correct still leaves me wondering why Guede was so adamant in his Skype that the semen wasn't his. Why he didn't make up a story to cover that as he did with most everything else remains unanswered for me.

Has Vixen come up with one other case where the murder knife tested negative for blood and yet produced the DNA of the victim? I must add that the knife can't have been the victims and the DNA must be found on the blade not just the handle. To me this is much stronger evidence that the kids weren't involved than history or motive.

Off for the dog walk and another day of painting to beat the carpet guys. :)

ETA: IIRC Patrick's places weren't searched and non of his knives were tested from either location and his wife was allowed to remain in their place

<fx broad Brummie accent> I'm doing it!
 
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