Obamacare 5 years later. Crow, anyone?

[Z]

I take it that is your total Federal and State income tax, plus payroll taxes? If so, that's kind of funny, because in the UK you would be paying about 38%. That would be your total income tax including National Insurance contributions, and that would include your health coverage.

This inspires my curiosity: is there any study done showing what percentage of taxes goes to political salaries, benefits, &tc, by nation? If the UK is doing more with less taxes, could it be due to lower political overhead?

 

[Shalamar]

You nationalize anything and make it "free" you end up with a disaster. The examples, VA, CA & UK are too numerous to count.

You're still obviously lying. I suggest you stop.

 

[Elf Grinder 3000]

2015 federal income tax calculator

Tax status: Single
No deductions:

|Gross income | |$200,000| |Qualified plan contributions | - | $0|
|Adjusted gross income |= |$200,000|
|Standard/Itemized deductions |- | $12,600|
|Personal exemptions |- | $8,000|
|Taxable income |= |$179,400|
|Tax liability before credits | | $37,284|
|Child tax credits |- |$0|
|Estimated tax liability |= |$37,284

Interest rate: 22.5335%

ETA: That does not include use taxes, VAT, state tax, etc. So I'm guessing ELF is right on overall taxes.

My federal was about 22%, state was about 9% and SS was about 6%

So the total is about 37%

I rounded up

 

[Elf Grinder 3000]

You're still obviously lying. I suggest you stop.

The only one lying is you. I just looked at my taxes it was 37%

I post reasoned arguments and you cling to your liberal narrative like a baby clings to his teddy bear.

Can I tell you something"? Your liberalism is destroying the country.

Obamacare is a disaster, welfare is a disaster and the economics policy of the Democrats is a disaster.

Your welfare state is collapsing like Greece

 

[RandFan]

My federal was about 22%, state was about 9% and SS was about 6%

So the total is about 37%

I rounded up

Perfectly fair given all of the other misc taxes.

 

[Shalamar]

The only one lying is you. I just looked at my taxes it was 37%

I didn't make a claim about your taxes.

So yes, a lie.

I post reasoned arguments and you cling to your liberal narrative like a baby clings to his teddy bear.

You've never made a reasoned argument. All you have is unreasoned hate against anything that you're told is 'bad'. Like 'liberals'.

You also don't know me, or my politics. So this is another lie.

Can I tell you something"? Your liberalism is destroying the country.

There is very little liberalism in the USA. There is The extreme right wing, and the moderate right wing.

And since you don't know 'my' liberalism, this is also a lie.

Obamacare is a disaster, welfare is a disaster and the economics policy of the Democrats is a disaster.

False. False. False.

The Affordable Care Act (A conservative plan) is not good. But it is NOT a disaster. It IS better than what was in place previous.

Welfare is better than letting people starve, and die in the streets.

The economics of the Democrats is simply different than what you want. This does not make it a disaster.

So, more lies.

Your welfare state is collapsing like Greece

And yes unemployment is dropping, the economy is improving, the Stock market is doing well. Huh. This is collapsing?

 

[Elf Grinder 3000]

I didn't make a claim about your taxes.

So yes, a lie.

You've never made a reasoned argument. All you have is unreasoned hate against anything that you're told is 'bad'. Like 'liberals'.

You also don't know me, or my politics. So this is another lie.

There is very little liberalism in the USA. There is The extreme right wing, and the moderate right wing.

And since you don't know 'my' liberalism, this is also a lie.

False. False. False.

The Affordable Care Act (A conservative plan) is not good. But it is NOT a disaster. It IS better than what was in place previous.

Welfare is better than letting people starve, and die in the streets.

The economics of the Democrats is simply different than what you want. This does not make it a disaster.

So, more lies.



And yes unemployment is dropping, the economy is improving, the Stock market is doing well. Huh. This is collapsing?

Where have people died in the streets, in america, before welfare?

Your politics aren't a mystery its liberal claptrap tropes. Dying in the streets really? We have the highest standard of living in the world.

That is a lie

I made an argument it was the conservative argument, you could not even muster the liberal viewpoint.

Your evil and people will die in the streets isn't an argument. Its name calling and scare tactics.

Welfare has failed to improve the poverty rate which has remained at 15% since 1965. The rate dropped before 1965 due to the private sector job growth. These are very valid arguments, your tropes are bogus.

But what is really at hand is this - why cling to the tropes? Why do liberals like yourself believe that we have to have welfare or universal coverage?

These don't work! So why cling to them like a baby blanket? Because the real motivation is your obsession with controling people and implementing your coveted programs so you can pat yourself on the back that your program gets passed. Liberalism is a mental disorder

 

[Shalamar]

Where have people died in the streets, in america, before welfare?

Your politics aren't a mystery its liberal claptrap tropes. Dying in the streets really? We have the highest standard of living in the world.

That is a lie

I made an argument it was the conservative argument, you could not even muster the liberal viewpoint.

Your evil and people will die in the streets isn't an argument. Its name calling and scare tactics.

Welfare has failed to improve the poverty rate which has remained at 15% since 1965. The rate dropped before 1965 due to the private sector job growth. These are very valid arguments, your tropes are bogus.

But what is really at hand is this - why cling to the tropes? Why do liberals like yourself believe that we have to have welfare or universal coverage?

These don't work! So why cling to them like a baby blanket? Because the real motivation is your obsession with controling people and implementing your coveted programs so you can pat yourself on the back that your program gets passed. Liberalism is a mental disorder

I also know you don't believe any of the above. It's been pointed out before how several of the above DO work.

When you can actually have a reasoned, non emotional argument, I may read you again. Though I suggest you pick up some grammar and spelling lessons.

Until then, ta-ta! In case you actually do believe the above? I'd suggest medical help.

Your words still make you a liar however.

 

[Elf Grinder 3000]

I also know you don't believe any of the above. It's been pointed out before how several of the above DO work.

When you can actually have a reasoned, non emotional argument, I may read you again. Though I suggest you pick up some grammar and spelling lessons.

Until then, ta-ta! In case you actually do believe the above? I'd suggest medical help.

Your words still make you a liar however.

The thing is I can't figure out why you can't muster an argument. I don't even really understand the reasoning behind your "fake" position.

Do you think that someone who makes 200K a year wants to give 37% of it to the government? Don't you think that person is going to question where all the money is going?

Sure, and I am questioning this so what I've discovered is that all the programs are in large part a waste. Furthermore it turns out people like yourself aren't really interested in helping the poor. They are these crazies obsessed with controlling society.

What am I to think?

Where am I going wrong?

Your argument that people will die on the streets isn't convincing to me because people weren't dying on the street before 1965. Get it? I'm saying that if we get rid of welfare people won't die because they didn't before welfare existed. This is what you would call an argument with evidence, it isn't a lie. Hint hint...

 

[Nihilianth]

That's adorable grasshopper.

Ok,. Mr. "I'm going on 60,000 posts!"

You've got 10 years on Nihilianth, I'm sure s/he will catch up by the time they're your age!

Let's see. I've been on these boards for four years now. A little under 1,000 posts/year.

RF has been on these boards for about 14 years. That's about 4,000 posts/year.

I would have to be posting much longer than ten more years just to catch up to where he';s at now!

 

[Nihilianth]

Well lets think about this. In the US I save a lot of money on taxes, right now I make >200K and pay about 40%.

So the point is I am saving thousands of dollars in taxes and those savings are >$700

On the VA, it is a nationalized system and look at it. This is what Obamacare is going to look like in a few years.

You nationalize anything and make it "free" you end up with a disaster. The examples, VA, CA & UK are too numerous to count.

And again, you need to read up on the issue surrounding the VA hospital. HINT: It has NOTHING....I repeat....NOTHING...to do with Obama or "socialism." It has everything to do with Republicans wanting to slash everything, with the exception of a disgustingly bloated military budget that goes towards for-profit military contractors!

 

[Nihilianth]

Even if the government DID have a program to pay for you if you had a life-threatening condition, how inefficient is that? Maybe instead of paying for poor people to be treated in trauma units for life-threatening situations, maybe it could pay for routine medical care to prevent some of those payments.

What a concept. A nation that takes care of it's own.

Bruce "The Boss" Springsteen is the man!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x8zBzxCwsM

http://www.nj.com/entertainment/music/index.ssf/2012/01/song_of_the_week_we_take_care.html

Calling out the ******** of those who cannot take care of fellow Americans, while standing up for the nation itself. The second link I provided, is a very good explanation of that particular song, as well as a bit about the different syles of voice and aggression he uses when singing of socio-political issues, compared to other stuff he does.

Ironically, the conservatives in my hometown whom I know just LOVE this song as something very patriotic. They also oppose a national healthcare system, and think that welfare should be peeled back, and no minimum wage. I attempt to explain to them what the song is about, and urge them to actually LISTEN to the lyrics. But they will have none of it.

Seriously, Bruce is golden! Love that guy.

 

[Nihilianth]

I take it that is your total Federal and State income tax, plus payroll taxes? If so, that's kind of funny, because in the UK you would be paying about 38%. That would be your total income tax including National Insurance contributions, and that would include your health coverage.

Actually, the only source I could dredge up, was the National Salary Calculator. According this website, the National Insurance is nearly 8 grand. Between that and the taxes, a person making 200,000 lbs (sorry, I dunno how to use the "pound" symbol on my keyboard.) would expect to pay about 58%.

Of course, 200,000 lbs is a lot higher than $200,000. I have no idea what the exchange rate is these days, an dhave no desire to look it up right now.

http://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php

To be fair though, the USA has 13 f'n carriers and their entire battle groups floating on the oceans, and thousands of completely useless tanks rolling off the assembly lines each year. I am SURE that the US could do a HELL of a lot better with lower taxes than the UK, while having a national health care system to boot!

 

[Nihilianth]

Do you think that someone who makes 200K a year wants to give 37% of it to the government? Don't you think that person is going to question where all the money is going?

Pretty ironic, if a person making $200,000 a year, who grew up with a decent education, drives on very nice roads every single day to and from work, go to the grocery store (which also delivered SAFE food over SAFE, high-speed roads,) can flip a switch and a light turns on when they enter a room, can turn on the tap and have safe and delicious water flow out of it at a high rate of speed, who praises the strength of the American military; who does all of these things, and still think: "Why am I paying taxes!? Where's all this money going anyways!?"

 

[RandFan]

Taxes don't disappear into a dark hole. It goes back into the economy.

 

[twinstead]

I do admit that I wish a greater percentage of my taxes went to infrastructure than it did to tax breaks for wealthy corporations like Nike or Royal Dutch Shell.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

How else do you solve an income/wealth inequality problem except through taxation? And yes, if people working full time are forced to eat Ramen, we have a problem in this country. That situation should not exist in an advanced society.

I'm not a believer in wealth redistribution to solve a problem like income inequality. But if it's going to be done this way I just don't see it working unless one also attacks the problem from the standpoint of the tax system.

Your contention that taxation only needs to be enough to see the benefits is logical and I can agree with it even if only part way, but political reality has a precedent of stating other wise. This is why I'm not optimistic about it... and in the perspective of the health care topic, I'm of the position that healthcare itself is too radically expensive to the extent that more than simply insurance reform needs to be investigated to address it.

 

[RandFan]

I'm not a believer in wealth redistribution to solve a problem like income inequality. But if it's going to be done this way I just don't see it working unless one also attacks the problem from the standpoint of the tax system.

Your contention that taxation only needs to be enough to see the benefits is logical and I can agree with it even if only part way, but political reality has a precedent of stating other wise. This is why I'm not optimistic about it... and in the perspective of the health care topic, I'm of the position that healthcare itself is too radically expensive to the extent that more than simply insurance reform needs to be investigated to address it.

I'm not sure what you mean by political reality. However, is it possible to show a correlation between decreasing social services and increased economic freedom and well being?

There is a reverse correlation found in the Index of Economic Freedom, Human Development Index and the Social Progress Index. It seems to me that the reality is clear, of course there are upward limits (see SIME/DIME studies), however, nations with the most social services are the nations highest in wealth and well being.

FWIW: The Human Development Index is a composite that includes GDP. If we isolate GDP we get similar results.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

I'm not sure what you mean by political reality. However, is it possible to show a correlation between decreasing social services and increased economic freedom and well being?

Political reality is that people have in mind solutions that are more reasonable than what actually gets implemented. To suggest that taxing the rich would stop at "just enough" is an oxymoron. We have transit authorities here adding express lane tolls to toll roads, and one of the case studies didn't add any new lanes to the affected thoroughfare, just deducted one to make the express lane. The new toll lanes are essentially just another tax when they're already receiving enough revenue to do the projects and improvements needed. And more are being added to other thoroughfares...

I do agree on the moderation, suggested... just don't have optimism it'll follow into application because of both precedent with other efforts, and indications provided by this law.


Short term... this law has done what it was designed to do. Long term... there are some bigger issues. And I think they are large enough to affect a single payer solution as well if not addressed

Reading your links now....

 

[3point14]

I'm not sure what you mean by political reality. However, is it possible to show a correlation between decreasing social services and increased economic freedom and well being?

There is a reverse correlation found in the Index of Economic Freedom, Human Development Index and the Social Progress Index. It seems to me that the reality is clear, of course there are upward limits (see SIME/DIME studies), however, nations with the most social services are the nations highest in wealth and well being.

FWIW: The Human Development Index is a composite that includes GDP. If we isolate GDP we get similar results.

Nobody ever has an answer for you on this one. I think that's fairly telling.