Greeks vote to reject incumbants, austerity

[dudalb]

Here comes "The Revolution is right around the corner" gang.

 

[dudalb]

That doesn't negate that they are anti-democratic, you're just arguing that they should not be democratic. The reason why they should be is simply because that might be what people expect of them in the EU (it is, after all, those peoples' money that it is working with). I guess you could still argue that they shouldn't "be constrained by the Greek vote" (aka not organize a little coup there), and end of the day your argument couldn't be refuted, just as long as it can then be equally argued that the Trojka shouldn't be whining when it gets overthrown either.

You do know if a vote was taken in Germany,it would probably be a landslide for no more bailouts for Greece......

 

[caveman1917]

Here comes "The Revolution is right around the corner" gang.

Right around the corner you think? On what do you base your prediction?

 

[Metullus]

That doesn't negate that they are anti-democratic, you're just arguing that they should not be democratic.

No, no at all. I don't see where you could get that from what I wrote. If the Greeks should vote that the US should give the Greek government $100 gazillion with no strings attached it is in no way anti-democratic if the US elects to pass on the opportunity.

The reason why they should be is simply because that might be what people expect of them in the EU (it is, after all, those peoples' money that it is working with). I guess you could still argue that they shouldn't "be constrained by the Greek vote" (aka not organize a little coup there), and end of the day your argument couldn't be refuted, just as long as it can then be equally argued that the Trojka shouldn't be whining when it gets overthrown either.

What coup? Has the Greek government been unlawfully overthrown? Can the Greek electorate not replace it? Has democracy been suspended in Greece? Or could it be, perhaps, that the Greek government has decided that ignoring its own referendum is less risky than going its own way?

I suspect that if the German electorate does not approve of what the German government is doing there will be a change at the next election. It is not as if that has never happened before.

 

[Oystein]

Strange that last time i checked, Switzerland has not sunk into chaos. And they do exactly that: Let the people vote on decissions, if they want to. It's called "Volksentscheid". And it's not new either. They do it for a long time now.

So, your argument is just stupid.

Greetings,

Chris

Two remarks:

First, the Swiss have this in their political culture, others don't. If you dump such a complicated and emotionally charged question on an unprepared population, you are playing the populist card, not advancing democracy

Second, the Swiss know how to word Volksentscheide, prepare them, campaign for them from long experience. Short version is: A Volksentscheid like the recent one in Greece would never ever be permitted in Switzerland.

 

[CapelDodger]

Regarding the referendum, it seems to me a lot of attention is being paid to an occasion when politicians promised what they couldn't deliver and then let people down. Been there, seen that, expected it all along.

Tsipras thought the referendum would give him some extra substance amongst the outside folk while they thought nothing of the sort. In fact they arbitrarily redefined the question as "Euro : In or Out?", bluntness Tsipras had flinched at. He flinched again when he looked into the abyss - or enough combined Greek clout flinched to force his concession.

Just one minor episode in a continuing saga. Wake me up when they jump the shark.

 

[angrysoba]

Wouldn't the Greek government - and everyone else in Greece - be better off with their money in pounds or dollars, then crashing the euro and paying back their debts at a cut price?

 

[angrysoba]

Regarding the referendum, it seems to me a lot of attention is being paid to an occasion when politicians promised what they couldn't deliver and then let people down. Been there, seen that, expected it all along.

Tsipras thought the referendum would give him some extra substance amongst the outside folk while they thought nothing of the sort. In fact they arbitrarily redefined the question as "Euro : In or Out?", bluntness Tsipras had flinched at. He flinched again when he looked into the abyss - or enough combined Greek clout flinched to force his concession.

Just one minor episode in a continuing saga. Wake me up when they jump the shark.

It also seems unnecessary. Tsipras could already argue that his government was the elected representatives of Greece with the policies that entailed.

 

[caveman1917]

No, no at all. I don't see where you could get that from what I wrote. If the Greeks should vote that the US should give the Greek government $100 gazillion with no strings attached it is in no way anti-democratic if the US elects to pass on the opportunity.

If the Greeks should vote that the US should not dictate Greek legislation, it is no way anti-democratic if the US replaces the Greek government with its own officials to write Greek legislation.

What coup?

You're not paying attention, are you? You know, same thing like in 2011.

Has the Greek government been unlawfully overthrown?

Unlawful? I don't know about that.

Can the Greek electorate not replace it?

No.

Has democracy been suspended in Greece?

Yes.

Or could it be, perhaps, that the Greek government has decided that ignoring its own referendum is less risky than going its own way?

Who knows.

 

[BenBurch]

I think the Euro is proving to be a very bad experiment. The UK was right to reject it.

 

[CapelDodger]

It also seems unnecessary. Tsipras could already argue that his government was the elected representatives of Greece with the policies that entailed.

Grand rhetorical gestures are his style, and he thought this was one. Here he came from the birthplace of democracy, his hand forced by the expressed will of the people, no leeway, no bluff.The outside folk said they didn't care and said it very convincingly. Bluff or not they were still going to wake up rich in the morning - even the Baltic States stand to benefit from more German tourism. Sign or so long. They signed. End of episode, cue up the next : Long Road to Implementation.

 

[Metullus]

If the Greeks should vote that the US should not dictate Greek legislation, it is no way anti-democratic if the US replaces the Greek government with its own officials to write Greek legislation.

The Greeks could have, and perhaps should have, gone their own way. That having been said, there are always conditions to such a deal. It is up to the Greeks to decide whether they agree to the deal. It is not anti-democratic for the creditor to put whatever conditions on such a deal as the creditor considers to be appropriate. The conditions might be onerous, or even humiliating, but ultimately it is the Greeks that had to choose, and they did. It was the democratically elected government of Greece that chose to accept the conditions, however onerous, however humiliating.

You're not paying attention, are you? You know, same thing like in 2011.

Oh, was there a violent and illegal overthrow of the government last week? Must have missed it.

Unlawful? I don't know about that.

Generally speaking a coup is considered an unlawful overthrow of government. Elections, generally do not qualify. Neither do merely unpopular policies of democratically elected governments. Fine lines, I know....

No.

The Greek Parliament is no longer functioning? Elections are suspended? Political parties are outlawed? Wow, a lot has happened in the past couple of days. I am sure it will hit the papers soon.

Yes.

Show me.

Who knows.

Self evident. It made a choice, and that choice involved ignoring its own referendum.

 

[CapelDodger]

I think the Euro is proving to be a very bad experiment. The UK was right to reject it.

What, given the state of that union, do you see as shiny about the UK?

When this little flap is the first crisis of the Euro, after fifteen years of doom-saying and premature obits, I think it's doing remarkably well. It weathered the Crash (a severe test by any standards) and it's not under any great threat now.

 

[CapelDodger]

Self evident. It made a choice, and that choice involved ignoring its own referendum.

Which was not in any way unconstitutional, as I understand it. The whole thing seems to have started life and gestated in a grappa-bottle.

 

[caveman1917]

Oh, was there a violent and illegal overthrow of the government last week? Must have missed it.

Need a hand with those goalposts?

The Greek Parliament is no longer functioning? Elections are suspended? Political parties are outlawed? Wow, a lot has happened in the past couple of days. I am sure it will hit the papers soon.

What are you rattling on about? You asked if the Greeks could replace their government.

Show me.

Constitutional court rulings? Who cares:

carry out ambitious pension reforms [i.e. cuts] and specify policies to fully compensate for the fiscal impact of the Constitutional Court ruling on the 2012 pension reform

National sovereignty? What a concept:

The government needs to consult and agree with the Institutions on all draft legislation in relevant areas with adequate time before submitting it for public consultation or to Parliament

Q&A:
Can the Greeks, in a technical sense, replace their government? Yes.
Can the Greeks replace the people making up their legislation? No.
Has democracy been suspended in Greece? Yes.

ETA: you know, like in 2011

 

[CapelDodger]

Here comes "The Revolution is right around the corner" gang.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHDaAyuw7pg

 

[angrysoba]

Which was not in any way unconstitutional, as I understand it. The whole thing seems to have started life and gestated in a grappa-bottle.

Tsipouro, I believe.

 

[CapelDodger]

National sovereignty? What a concept

Long past it's day.

 

[Metullus]

Need a hand with those goalposts?

I moved no goalposts. You claimed that there was a coup in Greece. A coup is generally defined as a sudden, violent, and unlawful overthrow of government. I am not aware that such a thing happened. You evidently think that one did. A policy decision made by a democratically elected government, however unpopular, however destructive to the economy, is not a coup. Neither is the commitment, by that democratically elected government, to undertake to institute policies or pass laws in order to satisfy a prerequisite to obtaining considerations from foreign entities a coup.

What are you rattling on about? You asked if the Greeks could replace their government.

Yes I did. Can they? Do they have the right to vote?

Constitutional court rulings? Who cares:


National sovereignty? What a concept:


Q&A:
Can the Greeks, in a technical sense, replace their government? Yes.
Can the Greeks replace the people making up their legislation? No.
Has democracy been suspended in Greece? Yes.

The Greeks elected to accept the deal offered. They could have said no. That is not a coup. That is a policy decision made by a democratically elected government, a government that can be replaced by the electorate.

 

[caveman1917]

That is a policy decision made by a democratically elected government, a government that can be replaced by the electorate.

If Obama wrote an agreement that from now on US legislation had to be approved by Russia first, and that this agreement would hold for any future government as well, then that would be a policy decision by a democratically elected government and hence democratic? Because the government can be replaced, even if any subsequent government would still not be able to present legislation without approval by Russia? It remains democratic even if a US referendum stated a clear no to that agreement and Obama having been elected specifically on rejecting such agreement?