Greeks vote to reject incumbants, austerity

[McHrozni]

Yes. Which has essentially happened already is Greece. What doesn't happen is people being put in debtors prisons and told that they have to pay back every cent despite all avenues of reparation being exhausted. Do you honestly believe Greece has the capacity to pay back all of what it owes? If yes, then how? If no, then why not write the debt off, or at least reduce it to cents in the dollar so that the lenders can reasonable recoup some of their losses on the risk that they took lending to Greece in the first place?

I'll note you totally changed your argument. Funny how these things happen when confronted with facts.

As for your question, because Greece apparently needs external motivation to pass necessary reforms. Syriza thought that by threatening to exit the Euro they'll be allowed to ignore the necessary reforms. However it is evident this same tactics need to be used against Greece.

It's comical, really. A normal country would want to reform so the same thing doesn't happen to it again. Greece, especially under Sryiza, is doing all it can so it will suffer the same fate over and over again.

Debt relief should be used as a reward for Greece for passing necessary reforms, not as a reward for insulting creditors and calling them "terrorists" for not throwing enough undeserved money at them. Greece is acting like a small spoiled child, and if it is to be kept in the European family it needs to be taught manners. Sad, but true.

McHrozni

 

[caveman1917]

I wonder what all the Syriza haters will think of Greece once Golden Dawn becomes the mainstream anti-austerity movement and forms government?

They'll call it a democracy movement.

 

[McHrozni]

I wonder what all the Syriza haters will think of Greece once Golden Dawn becomes the mainstream anti-austerity movement and forms government?

I'll book ski holidays in Hell. You?

McHrozni

 

[Christian Klippel]

And,frankly, Government by Referendum is a LOUSY idea. The people will quickly vote themselves into chaos.

Strange that last time i checked, Switzerland has not sunk into chaos. And they do exactly that: Let the people vote on decissions, if they want to. It's called "Volksentscheid". And it's not new either. They do it for a long time now.

So, your argument is just stupid.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[Amazer]

It's pretty clear that the Troika was well aware of all that. Yet, they chose to ignore the realities, especially Schäuble. He is an old, bitter man. Always was, but since he is now confined to a wheelchair, after an attack on him, he got even more bitter. Not to mention that he based his financial work on the assumption that Greece will pay several hunred million Euros every year, for the "money" that Germany lent them and is still lending them.

Seems a reasonable assumption to make. That's the way it usually works when you lend money. People and organisations who don't have that assumption usually call those amounts of money by a different name... like gift or something.

What the Troika is doing is pure revenge and spite. After all, how dare those Greeks actually do Democracy, and let their people vote on decissions. A voting public? Can't have that in the Troika's version of Democracy, it seems.

I was under the impression that the Troika didn't so much object to the process called voting as they objected to the result of that process.

Even so, while I understand the desire of the Greek people to stop additional austerity measures and where possible to roll those measures back, it seems fairly normal that the organisations who are doing the actual lending of money attach conditions before forking over money. To me it also seems quite rational and reasonable that those conditions increase in severity if the party wanting the loan fails to install confidence that they are serious about meeting their (new) obligations.

 

[psionl0]

Just for those who are a bit slow, what is the difference between the austerity package that was rejected at the referendum and the package that the Greek PM has now signed up for?

 

[aleCcowaN]

Just for those who are a bit slow, what is the difference between the austerity package that was rejected at the referendum and the package that the Greek PM has now signed up for?

I would say the rejected one was easier on Greece.

By the way. I can't agree enough with this:

Germany, no Greece, should exit the Euro

Tell Schäuble it would be only temporary...

 

[Christian Klippel]

Seems a reasonable assumption to make. That's the way it usually works when you lend money. People and organisations who don't have that assumption usually call those amounts of money by a different name... like gift or something.

Yes and no. Sure, one would expect that those who take a loan will pay it back. However, assuming that you can give someone who is already broke, and has been for a while despite some help in the past, will suddenly pay up is a bit idiotic. Plus, let's not forget that Germany demanded that they cut government spending, because austerity, but when greece sais that they would prefer not to buy those shiny submarines and other military stuff from germany, because, uh, to reduce government spending, all of a sudden Germany was all up in arms and said "But you need to buy that stuff from us!"

Now, where did a big chunk of the "money" that Germany has lend them go, and which country did that "money" help? German manufacturers of military equiopment, or Greece?

I was under the impression that the Troika didn't so much object to the process called voting as they objected to the result of that process.

Other than the fact that they made thinly veiled (if at all) threats that things will get much harder for Greece should they dare let the people decide?

Even so, while I understand the desire of the Greek people to stop additional austerity measures and where possible to roll those measures back, it seems fairly normal that the organisations who are doing the actual lending of money attach conditions before forking over money. To me it also seems quite rational and reasonable that those conditions increase in severity if the party wanting the loan fails to install confidence that they are serious about meeting their (new) obligations.

Someone who is in debt and can't pay it back, not really even the interrests, and is constantly lent more money to pay old debts and interrests, well, such an entity is broke beyond hope. Demanding that they take more and more loans, which has the side effect of requiring more and more money just for the interrests, is just stupid.

In the private and business sector it's quite simple. After a while the debts are slashed, and the entity can have a fresh start.

Oh, and it's rather funny how they all play a totally different tune about debts, not paying them, etc. when it comes to Ukraine now.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[caveman1917]

Demanding that they take more and more loans, which has the side effect of requiring more and more money just for the interrests, is just stupid.

Only if it was actually about the money, rather than about power through debt bondage.

 

[psionl0]

I would say the rejected one was easier on Greece.

This is what I suspect.

However, I can't find anything in the mainstream media that will compare the two deals. Why would a PM urge voters to reject a deal only to impose an even worse deal on the Greeks?

 

[Christian Klippel]

Only if it was actually about the money, rather than about power through debt bondage.

Indeed... Which is why the Troika is against slashing and cutting the Greek debts. Less debt = less power over them.

I mean, what the heck? Under the new agreement, Greece is now supposed to allow foreign people to have a say in its domestic law making process? Goes to show what those Troika idiots really think about democracy.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[Metullus]

Indeed... Which is why the Troika is against slashing and cutting the Greek debts. Less debt = less power over them.

I mean, what the heck? Under the new agreement, Greece is now supposed to allow foreign people to have a say in its domestic law making process? Goes to show what those Troika idiots really think about democracy.

Greetings,

Chris

Well, it is an agreement is it not? Could not the Greek Government have not agreed to the terms presented? Was that not an option? Don't like the terms - don't take the money.

 

[caveman1917]

Well, it is an agreement is it not? Could not the Greek Government have not agreed to the terms presented? Was that not an option? Don't like the terms - don't take the money.

Missed the landslide "Oxi (no)" result of the referendum?

 

[Metullus]

Missed the landslide "Oxi (no)" result of the referendum?

No. But it is the Greek government that is ignoring the vote - if anyone is anti-democratic in this instance it is the Greek government. No one else is subject to the referendum.

 

[aleCcowaN]

Why would a PM urge voters to reject a deal only to impose an even worse deal on the Greeks?

I'd say a case of the-day-after fever. It's not easy to have banks closed, empty ATMs, no answers, people setting themselves in fire or blowing their brains out in public places, pensioners having massive strokes in front of financial institutions because they can't get money to buy their medicines, bands of protesters setting banks and luxury stores to fire and dozens of dead by the hands of the police and army. The people tried to stay clean and said oxi, but they couldn't take it anymore, desperately needing their fix of euros they finally sent Tsipras to pay whatever the dealer asked for.

In 2001 our "Tsipras" had to resign for the same reasons. He took refuge with his wife in a country club and some days after he had the idea of going to the posh local supermarket wearing sunglasses in hours when there was almost no customers nor personnel. The few customers, employees and even the manager insulted him, egged him and threw him out of the premises. If the actual Tsipras had called our "Tsipras" he would have gotten this advice "sell your country just to buy your own peaceful future".

 

[caveman1917]

No. But it is the Greek government that is ignoring the vote - if anyone is anti-democratic in this instance it is the Greek government.

Yes they are.

No one else is subject to the referendum.

That doesn't mean no one else in this story is anti-democratic though.

 

[caveman1917]

Looks like Tusk is getting a bit scared...good

The bitter stand-off over Greece has given new energy to radical political groups on the left and right, creating a pre-revolutionary atmosphere that Europe has not seen since 1968, the EU leader who brokered Monday’s bailout deal has warned.

 

[Metullus]

That doesn't mean no one else in this story is anti-democratic though.

Neither does it mean that anyone else involved in this debacle is anti-democratic. Christian Klippel evidently thinks that the Troika should be constrained by the Greek vote although it is not clear why that should be the case.

 

[dudalb]

Looks like Tusk is getting a bit scared...good

I wonder if those who want a revolution will be happy with they get if it happens. I doubt it.

 

[caveman1917]

Neither does it mean that anyone else involved in this debacle is anti-democratic. Christian Klippel evidently thinks that the Troika should be constrained by the Greek vote although it is not clear why that should be the case.

That doesn't negate that they are anti-democratic, you're just arguing that they should not be democratic. The reason why they should be is simply because that might be what people expect of them in the EU (it is, after all, those peoples' money that it is working with). I guess you could still argue that they shouldn't "be constrained by the Greek vote" (aka not organize a little coup there), and end of the day your argument couldn't be refuted, just as long as it can then be equally argued that the Trojka shouldn't be whining when it gets overthrown either.