Greeks vote to reject incumbants, austerity

[CapelDodger]

If you make me choose I'd be rather inclined to accept paying the double starting in year 2115.

Why not we get the Greek share of Mars and call it quits?

Teetering on like this is demeaning to all concerned. I don't know the solution but that's not my pay-grade; there has to be something realistic to be arrived at.

Alternatively we could fend of reality long enough for the financial system to collapse anyway at hich point Greece will be the least of our problems. Unless we're Greek, for whom there's pschadenfreude (that's the Greek spelling).

 

[CapelDodger]

Nonsense. If you're unable to pay your debts you apply for bankruptcy and your debts written off. Lenders do a risk assessment when they make a loan, with the full knowledge that there is a risk a debtor might default, hence they are able to charge interest to mitigate the risk. That's how the system works.

I agree that the banks involved should have taken the loss, sink or swim, but for some reason that's not the way of things today. A lot of the debt is held internally so that would have been tricky for Greeks but it's not like they'd lose their house. And future potential lenders could factor the whole unfortunate incident into their calculations.

As it is we have this staggering farce.

 

[dudalb]

Oh, look! Captain Obvious finally found a job at the IMF!

IMF stuns Europe with call for massive Greek debt relief



There are many obvious things said by the IMF in that report. Oh, and look:



It's pretty clear that the Troika was well aware of all that. Yet, they chose to ignore the realities, especially Schäuble. He is an old, bitter man. Always was, but since he is now confined to a wheelchair, after an attack on him, he got even more bitter. Not to mention that he based his financial work on the assumption that Greece will pay several hunred million Euros every year, for the "money" that Germany lent them and is still lending them.

What the Troika is doing is pure revenge and spite. After all, how dare those Greeks actually do Democracy, and let their people vote on decissions. A voting public? Can't have that in the Troika's version of Democracy, it seems.

Greetings,

Chris

Wow, you can see the angry spittle when this was being typed.

And,frankly, Government by Referendum is a LOUSY idea. The people will quickly vote themselves into chaos. That is why we have representive government..so that people chosed by the voters will have the time to study the issues and make decision.
The state I live in ,California,owes many of it's problems to ill considered ballot propositions that were voted in because they sounded good at the time.
Once again, amused by how people are blaming The Evil Troika for all of Greece's problems,letting the Greek politicians off the hook.

 

[aleCcowaN]

Teetering on like this is demeaning to all concerned. I don't know the solution but that's not my pay-grade; there has to be something realistic to be arrived at.

There's nothing realistic to do. A debt of 100, 200 or 300 thousand millions is about the same when you think it in within the context of half a decade, if keeping the Euro in Greece prevents 3 or 5 billions -those with 12 zeroes- of GDP to be created during the same time span.

It's not a matter of speaking how much iron and vitamin C are to be given to the patient but finding why she bleeds and stop it.

I generally don't go easy on debtors but Greece's is just a problem to be paid by the whole Eurozone because it's their collective fantasy. And they have that strange political culture of going only inwards, like a fishing hook, in everything communitarian. It's like dreading the smallest mistake is going to make everything crumble down. I can't accept such notion because if that's it, Europe didn't have much from the very beginning.

 

[caveman1917]

My guess is that Edrogan needs an external foe for his government to continue to function.

I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with the threat of Turkish aggression leveled against the Greek government during the negotiations with the Trojka, as per the post I was responding to.

 

[caveman1917]

Nonsense. If you're unable to pay your debts you apply for bankruptcy and your debts written off. Lenders do a risk assessment when they make a loan, with the full knowledge that there is a risk a debtor might default, hence they are able to charge interest to mitigate the risk.

Your model is outdated. These days loans get bundled and sold and passed on through a secondary market. So you (not the lender) pay some money up front and there's a chance of say p of winning the money owned by the loan and (1-p) of winning nothing. Aka a gambling system.

If you were a private gambler in a casino you'd have the problem that you have to cover your losses with your gains. If you are however a corporate gambler (especially one that also has vital services such as banks in the portfolio) on the financial markets then you can simply say that taxpayers have to cover for those losses.

 

[theprestige]

So let me see if I understand:

The Greek territory is rich in natural resources. The Greek people comprise a skilled and competitive workforce, whose finished products are the equal in quality and price of any to be found in Europe. The Greek government is not so corrupt as to scare off investors.

The labor participation rate in Greece is high. The welfare participation rate in Greece is low.

All that prevents the Greek economy from generating so much wealth as to pay off all its debts with interest, and still have profits left over, are these things:

First, the Greek government needs to spend more money on the Greek people. For whatever reason, having natural resources, a productive labor force, and the rule of law isn't enough for the Greeks to begin generating wealth on their own. They need more and more government services in order to proceed with the Great Work.

And second, the other nations of Europe must lend more money to Greece--a *lot* more money. Really, they need to lend Greece an amount of money commensurate with the amount of wealth the Greek people have the potential to generate. Because if the money is lent, the Greek people will realize their potential, and generate enough wealth to pay back the loan with interest and with profits left over.

The only reason the Greek people are unable to realize their potential is that the loans are too small. And so they languish in non-productivity, unable to produce any goods or services of sufficient value to pay back even these small loans.

You have to spend money to make money, as they say, and so far the money given to Greece doesn't meet the minimum "spend money" requirement to unleash Greece's full economic potential--or even a small part of it.





In related news, I know I'm behind on my rent, but I've done the math and I'm pretty sure I'm worth at least a couple billion dollars over the next 30 years. So if you just loan me $1.5bn now, I promise to pay you back with interest in about 30 years. Do you mind waiting until then for the rent?

Thanks in advance,

theprestige

 

[aleCcowaN]

... then you can simply say that taxpayers have to cover for those losses.

Even worse, the fact that such safe investments have a very pretty nice interest being liquid assets -via bonds- as they are, sets a bar that any private business and the general public -the ones who pay the taxes for the government to repay its debts- have to pass through higher rates in order to get some money.

Public debt is quite a trap. Public debt in the order of a yearly GDP is a scam, and capital moving where the better scam is now, if you have the same currency, a scandal.

Greece's case is to be dealt like sea cargo insurance: in case of a typhoon, if the captain decides to throw some cases overboard for the ship's safety, its value must be apportioned among all the owners. Greece's disgrace is a matter of the whole Eurozone: you don't want a "Greece" then change the Eurozone, make it better, and indemnify those damaged.

 

[caveman1917]

That describes better your line of argument.

My "line of argument" is better described by laughter at your unsupported, and frankly bizarre, claim that you have from "someone on the inside".

Just don't forget to name Greece every now and then, just to keep up appearances.

Sure thing man.

 

[CapelDodger]

There's nothing realistic to do. A debt of 100, 200 or 300 thousand millions is about the same when you think it in within the context of half a decade, if keeping the Euro in Greece prevents 3 or 5 billions -those with 12 zeroes- of GDP to be created during the same time span.

A fresh start is certainly needed. Everybody needs to recognise mistakes made, learn lessons, and settle for a sensible repayment. I think this was recognised during the recent negotiations, it's just that the subject of debt-relief was not allowed onto the agenda. Another Tsipiras ploy hitting a wall.

It's not a matter of speaking how much iron and vitamin C are to be given to the patient but finding why she bleeds and stop it.

And then follow a rational path to recovery.

I generally don't go easy on debtors but Greece's is just a problem to be paid by the whole Eurozone because it's their collective fantasy. And they have that strange political culture of going only inwards, like a fishing hook, in everything communitarian. It's like dreading the smallest mistake is going to make everything crumble down. I can't accept such notion because if that's it, Europe didn't have much from the very beginning.

This is the dread, of course. Maybe, after all this development of a federal system, it'll all fall apart. The whole enterprise has been dreadfully mismanaged this century. Just appalling.

Whatever, storm's a-coming and it'll be bigger than Europe, mark my words.

 

[bit_pattern]

Wow, you can see the angry spittle when this was being typed.

Said the kettle to the pot...

 

[bit_pattern]

And your property is seized to pay your debts as much as possible. You totally ignored that, why?

Lying by omission is still lying.

McHrozni

Yes. Which has essentially happened already is Greece. What doesn't happen is people being put in debtors prisons and told that they have to pay back every cent despite all avenues of reparation being exhausted. Do you honestly believe Greece has the capacity to pay back all of what it owes? If yes, then how? If no, then why not write the debt off, or at least reduce it to cents in the dollar so that the lenders can reasonable recoup some of their losses on the risk that they took lending to Greece in the first place?

 

[bit_pattern]

I see the Neo Coms are trying to organize a boycott of German goods over the Greek Crisis. I think I will go out and find some German products to buy just to show what I think of that idea.

That's just the sort of thing a kitten-murderer apologist would say. Why do you hate kittens?

 

[aleCcowaN]

Whatever, storm's a-coming and it'll be bigger than Europe, mark my words.

I would lament Europe proving their leading role in the World by sending everybody to the drain, like the US did in 1929.

 

[aleCcowaN]

My "line of argument" is better described by laughter at your unsupported, and frankly bizarre, claim that you have from "someone on the inside".



Sure thing man.

Thanks God(-less). I thought you were talking to me.

 

[bit_pattern]

I would lament Europe proving their leading role in the World by sending everybody to the drain, like the US did in 1929.

I wonder what all the Syriza haters will think of Greece once Golden Dawn becomes the mainstream anti-austerity movement and forms government?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[aleCcowaN]

I wonder what all the Syriza haters will think of Greece once Golden Dawn becomes the mainstream anti-austerity movement and forms government?

Darwin forbid!!! I'd rather accept dudalb to follow the steps of Pericles, Cleon and Alcibiades.

 

[CapelDodger]

Darwin forbid!!! I'd rather accept dudalb to follow the steps of Pericles, Cleon and Alcibiades.

A modern-day Alcibiades? He'd end up as the first Greek Caliph of Istanbul.

 

[CapelDodger]

If no, then why not write the debt off, or at least reduce it to cents in the dollar so that the lenders can reasonable recoup some of their losses on the risk that they took lending to Greece in the first place?

We have to hold our noses and do what's necessary but lets not get to thinking the lenders actually did due diligence on the loans they touted to Greece. I don't think for a moment that it was Greek politicians who sought out the schemes which kept the loans off-balance sheet, it was banks which took the loans for them. All for volume and fees and back-end profits booked today and don't worry about the risk, it's hedged! Anyway it's sovereign debt so how can that go wrong?

The watchers weren't watching, of course. They never are when it matters - a truism, really, because it only matters when they aren't.

 

[aleCcowaN]

A modern-day Alcibiades? He'd end up as the first Greek Caliph of Istanbul.

Or stranded in Sicily.