Greeks vote to reject incumbants, austerity

[McHrozni]

When somebody says, "It's high time you clarified the differences between government finances and personal finances" saying "they are not the same" is not an answer.

There are a few main fundamental differences - namely that government finances can be increased by a stroke of the pen, and that cutting government spending depresses economy, that increasing taxes will also depress economy and the gains won't be as big as simple calculation would forecast and so on. In addition if you hold a secure job personal finances are less affected by fluctuations of economy. If you're a contractor it depends heavily on your trade, some can even benefit from weaker economy, many will be wrecked by a weaker economy and so on.

However several key points are identical to personal finances. If you spend all your money when times are good, you'll suffer badly when times go sour. If you take loans to finance assets you don't need and don't produce revenue when times are good, prepare to suffer badly when times are bad.

A final point, if you aren't unable to pay your debts on time, don't expect the bank to go easy on you, especially if you say you refuse to cooperate.

McHrozni

 

[bit_pattern]

A final point, if you aren't unable to pay your debts on time, don't expect the bank to go easy on you, especially if you say you refuse to cooperate.

McHrozni

Nonsense. If you're unable to pay your debts you apply for bankruptcy and your debts written off. Lenders do a risk assessment when they make a loan, with the full knowledge that there is a risk a debtor might default, hence they are able to charge interest to mitigate the risk. That's how the system works.

 

[bit_pattern]

So Govrenments can continue massive deficit spending forever without bad consequnces? Interesting.

Did I say woefully simple minded view of the world? Yes? Well, let me say it again: your argument belies a woefully simple minded view of the world.

 

[bit_pattern]

More capitalist hating commie opinion:

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/greece/2015-07-07/pain-athens

The roots of the crisis lie far away from Greece; they lie in the architecture of European banking. When the euro came into existence in 1999, not only did the Greeks get to borrow like the Germans, everyone’s banks got to borrow and lend in what was effectively a cheap foreign currency. And with super-low rates, countries clamoring to get into the euro, and a continent-wide credit boom underway, it made sense for national banks to expand private lending as far as the euro could reach.

So European banks’ asset footprints (loans and other assets) expanded massively throughout the first decade of the euro, especially into the European periphery. Indeed, according the Bank of International Settlements, by 2010 when the crisis hit, French banks held the equivalent of nearly 465 billion euros in so-called impaired periphery assets, while German banks had 493 billion on their books. Only a small part of those impaired assets were Greek, and here’s the rub: Greece made up two percent of the eurozone in 2010, and Greece’s revised budget deficit that year was 15 percent of the country’s GDP—that’s 0.3 percent of the eurozone’s economy. In other words, the Greek deficit was a rounding error, not a reason to panic. Unless, of course, the folks holding Greek debts, those big banks in the eurozone core, had, over the prior decade, grown to twice the size (in terms of assets) of—and with operational leverage ratios (assets divided by liabilities) twice as high as—their “too big to fail” American counterparts, which they had done. In such an over-levered world, if Greece defaulted, those banks would need to sell other similar sovereign assets to cover the losses. But all those sell contracts hitting the market at once would trigger a bank run throughout the bond markets of the eurozone that could wipe out core European banks.

 

[bit_pattern]

I also enjoyed this, if you have ten minutes to spare for an audio segment

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...s-how-will-greece-and-china-affect-us/6619536

Should we be worried about Greece and will we feel the flow-on effects of the Greek debt crisis? Greek negotiators have agreed to an emergency bailout package but the size of the Greek national debt is astronomical. Even with the bailout deal and austerity measures, the full debt will probably never be repaid. Peter Martin looks at the history of dealing with debt and how debt forgiveness can sometimes be the only way forward.

 

[McHrozni]

Nonsense. If you're unable to pay your debts you apply for bankruptcy and your debts written off. Lenders do a risk assessment when they make a loan, with the full knowledge that there is a risk a debtor might default, hence they are able to charge interest to mitigate the risk. That's how the system works.

And your property is seized to pay your debts as much as possible. You totally ignored that, why?

Lying by omission is still lying.

McHrozni

 

[aleCcowaN]

Is that usually the point where they light up a cigarette or take a zip from their drink and then start walking forwards again?

Oh I liked it just fine, it's a good laugh, a bunch of people in left-wing demonstrations conspiring to "suddenly stop walking".

Just because neo-liberals prefer to demonstrate goose-stepping in formation doesn't mean there's a conspiracy behind the disorderly chaos of left-wing demonstrations.

Oh, you can say also that the Moon is made of cheese! Wait! There's no non sequitur nor loaded assertion in that! You can say "the fact that the Moon is made of cheese doesn't prevent the mice to conspire by the rafters". That describes better your line of argument.

Just don't forget to name Greece every now and then, just to keep up appearances.

 

[angrysoba]

It appears to be a common occurrence. Two incidents in early June:

http://www.ekathimerini.com/197490/article/ekathimerini/news/turkish-jets-violate-greek-air-space
http://www.ekathimerini.com/197784/...fighter-jets-violate-greek-national-air-space

My guess is that Edrogan needs an external foe for his government to continue to function. Turks aren't stupid and have apparently had it with his attempts to take over their country.

McHrozni

You would have thought ISIS could play that role easily enough. The fact Erdogan doesn't really see them as such is a worry.

 

[McHrozni]

You would have thought ISIS could play that role easily enough. The fact Erdogan doesn't really see them as such is a worry.

Yeah. Very much so.

But that's material for a whole new topic, I think.

McHrozni

 

[aleCcowaN]

The last news on the ongoing Grexit is ECB raising ELA according to Greece's request but meeting just this week's quote of 900 million euro, just to watch what happens and with the conviction the bridge loan will be approved before next Monday, when a lot of money is due to the very ECB.

Two interesting elements:

Draghi acknowledges the big money already fled Greece in the bank scamper prior to the present corralito. Only common [frightened] people* with few savings and the minimum liquidity needed in businesses remain inside.

That assistance is in line with the 60€ cash daily withdrawal, just to keep the catheter flowing and the needle unobstructed.

My conclusion is: capital continue to flee the country as bank bills and even coins stuffed within "extraterritorial" cans. This flight of capitals can be measured by adding a big chunk of the increased ELA and how the bank bills and coins slowly become increasingly absent from tills and wallets.

* in Argentina, that part of the financial equation is called chiquitaje.

 

[LondonJohn]

The last news on the ongoing Grexit is ECB raising ELA according to Greece's request but meeting just this week's quote of 900 million euro, just to watch what happens and with the conviction the bridge loan will be approved before next Monday, when a lot of money is due to the very ECB.

Two interesting elements:

Draghi acknowledges the big money already fled Greece in the bank scamper prior to the present corralito. Only common [frightened] people* with few savings and the minimum liquidity needed in businesses remain inside.

That assistance is in line with the 60€ cash daily withdrawal, just to keep the catheter flowing and the needle unobstructed.

My conclusion is: capital continue to flee the country as bank bills and even coins stuffed within "extraterritorial" cans. This flight of capitals can be measured by adding a big chunk of the increased ELA and how the bank bills and coins slowly become increasingly absent from tills and wallets.

* in Argentina, that part of the financial equation is called chiquitaje.

Exactly.

And I continue to find it very surprising (but sadly indicative of modern investigative journalism) that most of the mainstream media (particularly the most powerful TV broadcasters) appear to be almost entirely overlooking the futility and near-surrealism of the ECB lending Greece emergency funds to (in part) enable it (Greece) to repay the ECB.......

 

[dudalb]

I don't think so.



I'm not talking about capitalism the fairy tale but capitalism as it exists, you know with a pseudo-fascist "Trojka" representing the European gambling corporations, for lack of a better term, against the European population (in this case particularly the Greek one).

Funny,your last sentence is a pretty good description of the Communist regimes in Europe during the Soviet era.......


Capitalism is not perfect,but,with some safety valves to keep it from self destructing and a safety net it's the best economic system around. To parapharase Churchill, Capitlaism is the worst economic system..except for all the others.
I don't like 'Crony Capitialism" either,but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[dudalb]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1268&pictureid=9975[/qimg]



.

Did'nt we just see this in a James Bond Movie a few years ago???

 

[aleCcowaN]

Exactly.

And I continue to find it very surprising (but sadly indicative of modern investigative journalism) that most of the mainstream media (particularly the most powerful TV broadcasters) appear to be almost entirely overlooking the futility and near-surrealism of the ECB lending Greece emergency funds to (in part) enable it (Greece) to repay the ECB.......

And now, to make things worse, there are rumours from inside the bank system itself about banks fully opening by next Monday and waiting for the Minister to give the thumbs up. Even as an idle rumour they have no idea how much damage this can cause. They haven't read Prospect Theory. Indeed, they seem to have learnt nothing.

 

[dudalb]

And your property is seized to pay your debts as much as possible. You totally ignored that, why?

Lying by omission is still lying.

McHrozni

Because it clashes with his belief that the Greek Government should not be held accountable for it's overspending......

 

[dudalb]

I see the Neo Coms are trying to organize a boycott of German goods over the Greek Crisis. I think I will go out and find some German products to buy just to show what I think of that idea.

 

[dudalb]

Exactly.

And I continue to find it very surprising (but sadly indicative of modern investigative journalism) that most of the mainstream media (particularly the most powerful TV broadcasters) appear to be almost entirely overlooking the futility and near-surrealism of the ECB lending Greece emergency funds to (in part) enable it (Greece) to repay the ECB.......

I,too,am gobsmacked by why The EU is so intent on keeping Greece in the Euro.
Probably has to with the EU exceeding it's remit:It was originally designed to help smooth out stupid economic barriers and policies between European coutnries that had damaged the European Economy for decades;somewhere along the line some bureaucrats decided to turn it into a de facto central Government for Europe,with the nations reduced in power and sovereignty to provinces. This is not working too well......

 

[Christian Klippel]

Oh, look! Captain Obvious finally found a job at the IMF!

IMF stuns Europe with call for massive Greek debt relief

"The dramatic deterioration in debt sustainability points to the need for debt relief on a scale that would need to go well beyond what has been under consideration to date,” said the IMF in a confidential report.

...

The document amounts to a warning that the IMF will not take part in any EMU-led rescue package for Greece unless Germany and the EMU creditor powers finally agree to sweeping debt relief.

...

There are many obvious things said by the IMF in that report. Oh, and look:

The creditors were aware of the IMF’s report as early as Sunday, yet chose to sweep it under rug. Extracts were leaked to Reuters on Tuesday, forcing the matter into the open.

It's pretty clear that the Troika was well aware of all that. Yet, they chose to ignore the realities, especially Schäuble. He is an old, bitter man. Always was, but since he is now confined to a wheelchair, after an attack on him, he got even more bitter. Not to mention that he based his financial work on the assumption that Greece will pay several hunred million Euros every year, for the "money" that Germany lent them and is still lending them.

What the Troika is doing is pure revenge and spite. After all, how dare those Greeks actually do Democracy, and let their people vote on decissions. A voting public? Can't have that in the Troika's version of Democracy, it seems.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[aleCcowaN]

Isn't that an oversimplification?

What they are discussing is whether they cut the debt in half and make Greece to pay it sooner, or they don't write off anything and let Greece have 30 years without repaying neither capital nor interests.

If you make me choose I'd be rather inclined to accept paying the double starting in year 2115.

All solutions from any source include Greece defaulting for quite a time. They are only trying to find some consensus in order to not call if a default but something nicer. "Grexit now" implies they're already in default, a rogue default. Everything they are doing these days will end up sooner than later with some "Grexit eventually", I suppose with less angrier European partners and much angrier Greek people.

 

[CapelDodger]

I see the Neo Coms are trying to organize a boycott of German goods over the Greek Crisis. I think I will go out and find some German products to buy just to show what I think of that idea.

My sister's family are in Crete right now. Ten of them including partners, paying for everything with cash folding, seeing nothing but smiling faces. Sounds very appealing.