Greeks vote to reject incumbants, austerity

[CapelDodger]

... anything that weakens the EU they would support.

It's a debatable point as to what does weaken the EU, the euro and lets not forget NATO - Greece in or out. It's hardly a buttress in the East, after all.

 

[caveman1917]

You basically are making things up.

No kidding.

That was your argument, didn't you remember?

The point isn't to make an argument but to make as many claims as possible no matter how devoid of coherence, logic and fact, you'll only refute maybe one and the rest will stand anyway.

 

[CapelDodger]

Evidence?

Newspapers, conversations, a few books. I've always followed current affairs. Even the colonels bought people off with the positive cash-flow that NATO membership brings, then there were rewards for kicking out the colonels and goodies for joining the EU and wtf was anybody thinking taking them into the euro? I was aghast, I can tell you.

I'm very much in favour of European Unity and the euro, but the way they've been handled this century is crass beyond the telling of it. And now we have Russians on the border again - something we've been trying to prevent for several centuries. And the Saracen threat. Mongol hordes mustering, I'll be bound. And who knows what's coming from China?

Lets keep Greece in perspective.

 

[LondonJohn]

A very insightful and intelligent (in my opinion) article that I could almost have written myself

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ollective-aversion-to-Grexit-is-baffling.html

 

[CapelDodger]

You could even try comparing the amount of implementation of the austerity programs for each EU country with how well that country is doing. The former is here, the latter may depend on your definition of "better".

On that subject, austerity is an appalling policy, quite literally. And it doesn't even work on its own terms.

With interest rates at historic lows of course there should have been capital investment. It's not as if there's nothing worthwhile investing in, after all.

 

[Random]

The ability of those on the left to ignore the basic lesson here:That a govenment spending more then it takes in over a long period of time is a bad thing..is just incredible.Let's blame everybody but the Greek people for voting in Governments that habitually overspent.
It's all rooted in a basic dislike of market driven economies. Though what the Anti Capitalists would put in it's place they never quite get around to detailing.

Blame the Greek people for their inability to pay their debts if you want, but that does nothing to change the fact that Greece is unable to pay its debts. If the austerity measures being pushed on them cause the Greek economy to contract faster than the deficit, then it will do nothing to help Greece out of debt. It's just pointless suffering to satisfy austerity fetishists.

Greece either needs to leave the Euro, take its lumps, and rebuild a rational national economy, or they need to have a large chunk of their debt written off by the EU. There is really no purpose to these successive austerity cuts, and sooner or later the Troika will demand something that Greece cannot accept.

 

[caveman1917]

Blame the Greek people for their inability to pay their debts if you want, but that does nothing to change the fact that Greece is unable to pay its debts. If the austerity measures being pushed on them cause the Greek economy to contract faster than the deficit, then it will do nothing to help Greece out of debt. It's just pointless suffering to satisfy austerity fetishists.

It will increase their debt to about 200% of GDP, from a current 175% that went up from a European average of 100% [ETA: not actually the European average, but in line with several other European countries] after they took the role of "pass on this money to our banks". Debt is a good thing, it keeps people in check, that's why austerity makes it go up so much.

 

[caveman1917]

Lets keep Greece in perspective.

How about we try to get our facts straight first?

 

[dudalb]

The problem I have is that I have no faith in the ability of Greek Politicians to rebuild a rational national economy. And the bunch of Neo Marxist ideologues that is Syriza least of all.
Frankly, I agree with a article posted above as to why The Euros are so horrified by Greece exiting the Euro.
As to Austerity,the bloated Greek public sector is going to have to shrink. Question is whether it is best to do it over the long term with some prolonged mild pain, or all at once with real but short term hurt.
Overspending by government is at the core of Greece;s problem. That is what so many on the left either ignore or avoid,because they fell massive government spending is the solution to every economic problem.

 

[dudalb]

How about we try to get our facts straight first?

THis coming from somebody who a few pages back said this about Easteen Europe before the collapse of the Soviet Union:

Yet in the former communist countries, especially East Germany, it is the generation who are old enough to have known both that are almost universally in favour of the socialist system. Maybe they just remember the full employment and free healthcare, education, housing, etc in a better way than some here would like.

Of course the obvious question is if Communism was such a wonderful system,why the hell did it collapse?

And there was not much in the way of individual freedom in Eastern Europe during the COmmunist era....

But now the guy's total support of Vladimir Putin makes sense. He will bring back the good old days....

 

[caveman1917]

bloated Greek public sector is going to have to shrink.

Bloated? Evidence?

 

[caveman1917]

THis coming from somebody who a few pages back said this about Easteen Europe before the collapse of the Soviet Union:



Of course the obvious question is if Communism was such a wonderful system,why the hell did it collapse?

And there was not much in the way of individual freedom in Eastern Europe during the COmmunist era....

But now the guy's total support of Vladimir Putin makes sense. He will bring back the good old days....

You're just too funny.

 

[CapelDodger]

It will increase their debt to about 200% of GDP, from a current 175% that went up from a European average of 100% [ETA: not actually the European average, but in line with several other European countries] after they took the role of "pass on this money to our banks". Debt is a good thing, it keeps people in check, that's why austerity makes it go up so much.

When you bail someone out of debt the money goes to the creditors, whether they be banks, the IMF or Tony Soprano. It's in the nature of things. Someone comes round and you give them the money or they break your legs (figuratively speaking).

 

[CapelDodger]

Of course the obvious question is if Communism was such a wonderful system,why the hell did it collapse?

A lot of it was good but it rotted from the top. Atrophy followed by gangrene.

And there was not much in the way of individual freedom in Eastern Europe during the COmmunist era....

Nor before it. It's not a common condition of society.

 

[caveman1917]

When you bail someone out of debt the money goes to the creditors, whether they be banks, the IMF or Tony Soprano.

Here's the question: why, if the EU institutions are so concerned about some corporations' finances, don't they just hand that pile of money to them directly, rather than through Greece thereby increasing Greek debt. Only now it's to the people in the rest of the EU rather than these corporations who might otherwise be considered responsible for their own risks on the financial markets and, in many cases, plain criminal activities surrounding these.

It just seems so many detours for going "of course the population will cover corporations' losses and risks."

 

[caveman1917]

Nor before it.

Or after for that matter.

 

[CapelDodger]

Here's the question: why, if the EU institutions are so concerned about some corporations' finances, don't they just hand that pile of money to them directly, rather than through Greece thereby increasing Greek debt.

They're not increasing debt, they're paying it off with one hand as they give with the other. The debt has increased because Greece still hasn't sorted out its medium-term deficit.

Only now it's to the people in the rest of the EU rather than these corporations who might otherwise be considered responsible for their own risks on the financial markets and, in many cases, plain criminal activities surrounding these.

One could indeed have let them take the loss. That would be my choice, frankly. They, after all, were the ones who thought up the schemes and trousered the very considerable up-front fees. Not to mention booking down-stream income as current, on the principle of bonus now, Armageddon tomorrow.

Normally a crash like 2008 scars a generation of bankers, but not this time. Avoiding the mistakes of the 1930's meant cushioning the financial world to the failings of the 2000's with the result that they're winding up for another already.

 

[caveman1917]

They're not increasing debt, they're paying it off with one hand as they give with the other. The debt has increased because Greece still hasn't sorted out its medium-term deficit.

They started with a stable 100% of GDP and after these "money changing hands routines" ended up with 175% of GDP. This particular "money changing hands routine" will pull that up to 200%. And then there's this almost fascist obsession with "punishment of people who vote the wrong way", in the form of austerity programs apparently designed to perpetuate the situation. Debt bondage is so much fun.

 

[bit_pattern]

This come from someone who does not accept the basic facts of economics because they clash with his obvious dislike of the Capitalist system.

This from the guy who hates democracy...

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[bit_pattern]

Why do you hate the EU so much?
.

Why do you hate sovereign democracy so much?



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