Greeks vote to reject incumbants, austerity

[caveman1917]

Perhaps it's time somebody else stepped in and took a firm grasp of the situation.

They are stepping in, Greece will now be run by "foreign supervisors".

 

[dudalb]

a histrionic exercise in democratic sovereignty? People voted directly no against a certain political program but it gets implemented anyway. Looking at the other histrionic exercise (the vote by parliament) it won't be a problem. All the pro-austerity political parties have united to vote yes so Tsipras' program will get through even with all the defections in Syriza itself. Tsipras himself has declared a purge of rebellious Syriza members. It's so nice to see a coup unfold before your eyes

And the alterantive as to "honor" the referendum ,have Greece say FU to the EU,and then go into a total economic collapse that would make any Austerity measures look mild in comparasion.
Tragedy is that the Greek people were dumb enough to fall for a bill of goods sold them by a bunch of demogogues who were great at demogoguing but lousy at actual economic managment.
There is no quick ,easy and painless way out. The Greek Governement cannot go back to the level of spending pre austerity. There is no money int he country,and the lenders have had enough .
If you want to preserve you indepdence,don't put yourself into hock.

Personally, I think the EU should just have stood back and let Greece go into the abyss.Long term it would have reminded people of something that people have forgotten inthe last 20 years: Hard Left economics just do not work.You cannot spend massively more then you take in without bad consequences.
If the EU collapses,which is what some people frankly want,you will not like what will happen in the aftermath.
Interesting that the ex Soviet Countries in the EU are the most critical of the way Greece has conducted business. Been there,done that, seen it does not work.

 

[aleCcowaN]

I think that at least some of the banks involved had EU governments as Major Shareholders, so the line gets blurred.

You basically are making things up. Of course you'll some millions that match your description, but Greece's public debts with private foreign banks are in the order of 2,500 million euros, a fifth of the debt with Greek banks, 6% of the debt in private owned bonds and just 1% of what Greece owes to the Troika.

Most of the debt is with a fund tax payers of all the EU contributed to finance. That was your argument, didn't you remember? It's not the line you mentioned what is getting blurred.

 

[aleCcowaN]

We will face consequences for our debt too, and they will not be pretty. We have the advantage that our debt is in a currency we control, but that doesn't mean nothing bad will happen. It will. It's a mathematical inevitability.

And you have always a choice to start the printing press and pay á la Carter with a bank-note-rhea, and liquidate the public debt and ruin the pension funds. One North American trillion a year will do with an inflation of 7% a year, and the debt gone the Ford and Carter way (that's why they are so loved and remembered in everybody's prayers). That won't be available for Greece until Grexit.

 

[CapelDodger]

a histrionic exercise in democratic sovereignty?

No, just a histrionic exercise. Solidarity is not enough without the solids, and Greece doesn't have any right now.

People voted directly and explicitly no against a certain political program but it gets implemented anyway.

Grim reality can be a real bitch.

Looking at the other histrionic exercise (the vote by parliament) it won't be a problem. All the pro-austerity political parties have united to vote yes so Tsipras' program will get through even with all the defections in Syriza itself. Tsipras himself has declared a purge of rebellious Syriza members. It's so nice to see a coup unfold before your eyes

That's representative government for you. At least this time it's recognised grim reality.

 

[CapelDodger]

They are stepping in, Greece will now be run by "foreign supervisors".

They can't make a worse shambles of it.

 

[aleCcowaN]

It was not unreasonable for Greek people to think the referendum would be honoured.

Now is not unreasonable for them to realise they have being duped.

 

[Random]

And the alterantive as to "honor" the referendum ,have Greece say FU to the EU,and then go into a total economic collapse that would make any Austerity measures look mild in comparasion.
Tragedy is that the Greek people were dumb enough to fall for a bill of goods sold them by a bunch of demogogues who were great at demogoguing but lousy at actual economic managment.
There is no quick ,easy and painless way out. The Greek Governement cannot go back to the level of spending pre austerity. There is no money int he country,and the lenders have had enough .
If you want to preserve you indepdence,don't put yourself into hock.

Personally, I think the EU should just have stood back and let Greece go into the abyss.Long term it would have reminded people of something that people have forgotten inthe last 20 years: Hard Left economics just do not work.You cannot spend massively more then you take in without bad consequences.
If the EU collapses,which is what some people frankly want,you will not like what will happen in the aftermath.
Interesting that the ex Soviet Countries in the EU are the most critical of the way Greece has conducted business. Been there,done that, seen it does not work.

Dropping out of the EU and declaring bankruptcy would be a massive economic hit, but Greece could then start to dig their way out again. Germany is proposing lesser suffering for Greece through pointless austerity, but it would go on for as far into the future as anyone is willing to predict. Which is better, getting kicked in the crotch twenty times in a row, or getting kicked in the crotch once a month for the next twenty years?

IMO, if Greece had told the EU to take a hike five years ago, they would probably be in a better financial situation today...

 

[aleCcowaN]

I hope everybody realises the banks are not opening next Thursday, not even next Monday. Greek parliament is voting crap and the Greek people is tolerating it in the hope that would happen.

 

[dudalb]

Dropping out of the EU and declaring bankruptcy would be a massive economic hit, but Greece could then start to dig their way out again. Germany is proposing lesser suffering for Greece through pointless austerity, but it would go on for as far into the future as anyone is willing to predict. Which is better, getting kicked in the crotch twenty times in a row, or getting kicked in the crotch once a month for the next twenty years?

IMO, if Greece had told the EU to take a hike five years ago, they would probably be in a better financial situation today...

The ability of those on the left to ignore the basic lesson here:That a govenment spending more then it takes in over a long period of time is a bad thing..is just incredible.Let's blame everybody but the Greek people for voting in Governments that habitually overspent.
It's all rooted in a basic dislike of market driven economies. Though what the Anti Capitalists would put in it's place they never quite get around to detailing.

 

[dudalb]

They can't make a worse shambles of it.

Frankly, Syriza is just the latest bunch of clowns driving the clown car that has been Greece for some time,
That is why I think who think that a Greexit would be a great thing for Greece are so off the mark. The Greek Politicians would screw that up as badly as they have screwed up everything else.
The amount of denial of reality in this thread by the fans of Syriza is just incredible.

 

[caveman1917]

The amount of denial of reality in this thread

 

[caveman1917]

That's representative government for you.

Quite antidemocratic form of government then, it seems.

 

[CapelDodger]

There is no quick ,easy and painless way out.

Eat the rich.

The Greek Governement cannot go back to the level of spending pre austerity.

Nor the revenue, nor the exemptions. The Greek rich are going to have to start coughing up like everybody else in places like, say, Estonia.

Interesting that the ex Soviet Countries in the EU are the most critical of the way Greece has conducted business. Been there,done that, seen it does not work.

Indeed. You don't all get rich by voting yourself so, and the world does not owe you a living.

Eyes on China next.

 

[dudalb]

Quite antidemocratic form of government then, it seems.

I refuse to take a PUtin fanboy serously when he talks about someone being anti democratic.
Of course I thnk a Putin fanboy would cheer on the militants in Greece because anything that weakens the EU they would support.Way too obvious,dude.

 

[dudalb]

Eat the rich.

.

Not enough rich to go around.........

 

[CapelDodger]

The ability of those on the left to ignore the basic lesson here:That a govenment spending more then it takes in over a long period of time is a bad thing..is just incredible.Let's blame everybody but the Greek people for voting in Governments that habitually overspent.

This has been the practice of Greek governments of both wings for a couple of generations. They buy of the populace and the party with no-show jobs and tricks like early retirement schemes, where the bill comes in later. Like now. Actually a while back. It's a bloody fool's paradise over there.

It's all rooted in a basic dislike of market driven economies.

It's always been an oligarchic society since independence. Then there's the Church, a conservative rural population and what-all else.

Though what the Anti Capitalists would put in it's place they never quite get around to detailing.

They've barely got past anti-Monarchism let alone to capitalism and its nemesis. Haven't you read Marx? (Don't, it's terribly dull.)

 

[CapelDodger]

Not enough rich to go around.........

I asked for a Greek salad, got an empty plate with an IOU on it.

(Stolen. You will too, admit it.)

 

[caveman1917]

IMO, if Greece had told the EU to take a hike five years ago, they would probably be in a better financial situation today...

You could even try comparing the amount of implementation of the austerity programs for each EU country with how well that country is doing. The former is here, the latter may depend on your definition of "better".

 

[caveman1917]

This has been the practice of Greek governments of both wings for a couple of generations. They buy of the populace and the party with no-show jobs and tricks like early retirement schemes, where the bill comes in later. Like now. Actually a while back. It's a bloody fool's paradise over there.

Evidence?