Greeks vote to reject incumbants, austerity

[caveman1917]

I don't give a damn for your hurt feelings as long as I am saving your sweet ass even against your own, foolish decisions)

A bit of a Messiah complex here? It might work better if your response wasn't based on such foolish misrepresentations of the situation.

 

[aleCcowaN]

The last IMF hiccup makes me think they are close to find some patsy to shot the aGreekment down and proceed to Grexit. Some parliament, maybe Finland's or Slovakia's.

 

[caveman1917]

Could have just let the banks go under.

It still can get its money back from the banks (which is where it went in the first place), rather than the Greek people whose main job was merely to pass the money along and who themselves got practically nothing of.

In fact, if any German politician reads this, I will vote for any party that is not in any way nationalistic and promises these two things

The Greeks did more, they voted in a referendum (not just for a politician promising something) and look at what that got them. On what basis do you think voting can still be considered productive?

 

[LondonJohn]

And get the impression,since you seem to be a UK citizen,that you will vote Yes for the UK to leave the EU,

Completely wrong*. But extremely interesting that you would make that incorrect assumption.


* Not wrong about me being a UK citizen - wrong on the other part....

 

[dudalb]

It still can get its money back from the banks (which is where it went in the first place), rather than the Greek people whose main job was merely to pass the money along and who themselves got practically nothing of.



The Greeks did more, they voted in a referendum (not just for a politician promising something) and look at what that got them. On what basis do you think voting can still be considered productive?

I think Tsrever whole fantasy about the German banks being stormed by an angry revolutionary mob shows where he is coming from.

 

[dudalb]

Orwell is still around I see

So says a Putin supporter........

 

[caveman1917]

You can't keep rasing taxes on "the rich" forever without killing the goose that lays the Golden Eggs.

Are we doing parables now? During the latest series of (general) strikes in Belgium (nov/dec last year) there was an interesting article written by a teacher

The last class before the exams the students asked me if I would strike as well. When I responded with a convinced yes, there followed a surprised "tu quoque, sir, but why?". Apparently their image of the average striker did not correspond well with that of their driven young Latin teacher. Coincidentally we were reading texts by Livius about the earlier history of Rome and one of them seemed quite appropriate.

I told them the story of the first strike in Rome. In 494BC Rome had only just become an independent republic when the plebeians left the city of Rome in common protest against the unjust taxes and heavy conscription with which the patricians were oppressing them. The people settled themselves outside the city walls and decided to no longer work the fields of Rome, bring food to the market or perform any army duty. Soon famine was also hitting the better classes en the young republic was more vulnerable to its enemies than ever. To get out of the crisis the patricians sent Menenius Agrippa, the best orator among them, to the people. He told them the following story.

The stomach and the limbs

"One time the limbs of the human body were dismayed over the fact that they had to do all the dirty work while the stomach seemed to have an easy life in the middle of the body. So the hands decided not to bring food to the mouth, the mouth not to accept the food anymore, en the teeth not to chew it. Soon the stomach got into problems, but not much later the limbs themselves did too." With this story Agrippa taught them that society was a harmonic whole in which each gear has its specific role. The people now understood how useful the function of the stomach was and meekly returned back to Rome.

"But sir", said someone, "then why do you strike?"

Because the Latin word for story is fabula and this fable was written by one of the writers of emperor Augustus, who had every interest in oppressing the people. In reality the people then decided not to be had by cheap stories anymore by those who think their own policy is inevitable for the wellbeing of society. They only returned back to Rome after the patricians had pledged to remit their debts and given them people's tribunals that had an absolute veto right against any unjust decision by the patricians.

That is why I'm going on strike monday. Applause followed, but whether that's because of my argument or because the bell went in the meantime, is something I'll leave out.

 

[caveman1917]

So says a Putin supporter........

Found out which floor of that office building in St Petersburg you think I work at yet?

 

[angrysoba]

Forgive my ignorance here, but does Greece mainly owe money to private banks or to other nations in the EU?

 

[CapelDodger]

The Greeks did more, they voted in a referendum (not just for a politician promising something) and look at what that got them. On what basis do you think voting can still be considered productive?

Politics is the art of the possible. I could win a referendum in favour of World Peace and Prosperity but it would just be another fart in the wind. As was that histrionic exercise.

 

[CapelDodger]

Forgive my ignorance here, but does Greece mainly owe money to private banks or to other nations in the EU?

Mainly to institutions such as the IMF. The ratio was drastically changed when bailout debt replaced bank debt in recent years.

 

[angrysoba]

Politics is the art of the possible. I could win a referendum in favour of World Peace and Prosperity but it would just be another fart in the wind. As was that histrionic exercise.

This maybe true, but who would hold the referendum and would you choose to believe those holding the referendum would honour the result. It was not unreasonable for Greek people to think the referendum would be honoured.

 

[dudalb]

Forgive my ignorance here, but does Greece mainly owe money to private banks or to other nations in the EU?

I think that at least some of the banks involved had EU governments as Major Shareholders, so the line gets blurred.

 

[Ziggurat]

The best way to prevent that is to stop uttering platitudes.

Have you checked the per capita government debt of the USA, Japan, etc etc?

We will face consequences for our debt too, and they will not be pretty. We have the advantage that our debt is in a currency we control, but that doesn't mean nothing bad will happen. It will. It's a mathematical inevitability.

 

[dudalb]

This maybe true, but who would hold the referendum and would you choose to believe those holding the referendum would honour the result. It was not unreasonable for Greek people to think the referendum would be honoured.

Technically this is a different deal then the one the referendum was about. Real problem is Syriza promised the moon...a quick and relatively easy way out of Greece's economic problems.....and could not deliver.

But the Referendum does show one of the dilemnas of Democracy:what happens when the people vote for something that is really,really,stupid?

 

[dudalb]

Politics is the art of the possible. I could win a referendum in favour of World Peace and Prosperity but it would just be another fart in the wind. As was that histrionic exercise.

That is why the guy who was screaming about how people have a right to vote for the economic system they want was so off base. You can vote for a economy with full empolyment,high salaries for all,and all debts to to the banks forgiven,but that does not mean you are going to get it. It would be like voting that the law of gravity should be repealed.

 

[CapelDodger]

This maybe true, but who would hold the referendum and would you choose to believe those holding the referendum would honour the result.

I was employing Reductio ad absurdam.

It was not unreasonable for Greek people to think the referendum would be honoured.

Yes, it was, if by that you mean anyone but Greeks would pay it any mind. There's no question what Greek opinion is and hasn't been since at least the election. Greek opinion signifies inside Greece. It does not signify anywhere else.

The referendum was inevitably met with the response "**** you, where's my money?".

 

[CapelDodger]

That is why the guy who was screaming about how people have a right to vote for the economic system they want was so off base. You can vote for a economy with full empolyment,high salaries for all,and all debts to to the banks forgiven,but that does not mean you are going to get it. It would be like voting that the law of gravity should be repealed.

It's student-level politics, to my mind, and that's about the calibre of the politicians involved. Perhaps it's time somebody else stepped in and took a firm grasp of the situation.

 

[caveman1917]

Politics is the art of the possible. I could win a referendum in favour of World Peace and Prosperity but it would just be another fart in the wind. As was that histrionic exercise.

a histrionic exercise in democratic sovereignty? People voted directly and explicitly no against a certain political program but it gets implemented anyway. Looking at the other histrionic exercise (the vote by parliament) it won't be a problem. All the pro-austerity political parties have united to vote yes so Tsipras' program will get through even with all the defections in Syriza itself. Tsipras himself has declared a purge of rebellious Syriza members. It's so nice to see a coup unfold before your eyes

 

[caveman1917]

Greek opinion signifies inside Greece.

Not to you apparently. They directly voted against a set of measures imposed on themselves in Greece. These measures get imposed on themselves in Greece, with even a little "payback" attached for them daring to be so histrionic about that silly "democracy" thing.