Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[LondonJohn]

Once again, the thread has grown lengthy, so this is a continuation from the previous thread, Part 16. As usual, the split point is arbitrary and participants are free to quote from the previous thread(s) into this one.
For further reference, see: Part 15.
Part 14,Part 13, Part 12, Part 11, Part 10, Part 9, Part 8, Part 7, Part 6, Part 5, Part 4, Part 3, Part 2, Part 1, and Part 0.

Posted By: Agatha

Her mother's arrival was not a secret to Amanda. As soon as she learned her mother was coming, Amanda would have told any friends that her mother was coming and when she knew the flight details she would have naturally said "My mom's coming. She's arriving Tuesday". (Nov 6). Amanda would have told Raffaele, Filomena, Laura, et al. She would have told the police too if they inquired how she was doing, how she was sleeping, was she eating OK?, etc. That is in addition to police-monitored phone conversations or emails with her mom.

Yes. I think it's very likely that the issue of Knox's mother's arrival in Perugia would have come up in Knox's police interviews on the 3rd and/or the 4th (and failing that, police interviews with other friends/acquaintances of Knox who would also have known this information). Knox herself might of course remember whether or not this was the case.

And I really do think that once the police (and PM) realised that Knox's mother was arriving, they quickly reasoned that she (mother) might well have the persuasive abilities and the authority over Knox to get her on an aircraft back to Seattle post haste. And since the police now had Knox firmly in their crosshairs as a prime suspect, this was a development that they were not willing to risk happening. Hence the quickly-concocted plan to "break" Knox (by way of "breaking" Sollecito first) on the night of 5th/6th, in order that they'd have sufficient grounds to arrest her and detain her in custody by the time her mother even arrived in Perugia. That way, there was no chance whatsoever (counting on a pliant arraignment judge, of course......) that Knox would ever be able to leave Perugia before she "faced justice".

 

[LondonJohn]

The problem is some of these issues are technical. One cannot do a test if one is not equipped to do so even if a judge has said to do so. C&V were not equipped with a lab for LCN work. They could have done what Stef did; carried out a test they were not equipped or competent to do, improperly, destroying the opportunity for it to be done correctly by a properly equipped lab. Instead they said they could not do the test. That a laboratory set up to do LCN work subsequently did the test shows they made the right decision.

Absolutely true. And alongside that, it shouldn't be forgotten that C&V's remit was specifically - and exclusively - to evaluate and report on Stefanoni's work. It was not their remit to instigate new, different evidence-gathering. That should rightly have been tasked to an official forensic science service recognised by the Italian criminal justice system in general. And indeed that's exactly what happened, when the Carabinieri forensic science group (who, unlike the incompetent and mendacious clown Stefanoni, appeared to know a) what they were doing, and b) what the limitations of their expertise were) conducted the additional tests. In fact, the very fact that the Nencini court heard the Carabinieri's evidence/testimony (including their implicit shredding of Stefanoni's work) and yet still convicted is astonishing in and of itself.

 

[MichaelB]

Teddy summary of Nara Capezzali’s statement to police on November 27, 2007 (this is one of the new docs)

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/2007-11-27-Witness-deposition-Capezzali.pdf

Nara Capezzali went to bed at about 9:30pm and doesn’t remember what time she got up. When asked to guess what time it might have been, she says 11 or 11:30pm but she doesn’t know. She says the noise came from the house. For 1 minute she looked out the window and she heard the noise of stones and leaves blowing in the street below her, and then a couple of seconds after the scream she heard two people running, one person on the metal stairs that lead out of the car park, the other running towards via Bulagaio or towards the University for Foreigners. She said she didn’t look at the time because there are always people messing about down there. Later she shows doubt about where the noise actually came from. She couldn’t get back to sleep at first and she thought about whether somebody had been mugged because it happens a lot there in the street below, or perhaps a girl had been attacked. The next morning she didn’t mention the scream to her daughter because she wasn’t sure about it. In the two weeks running up to the event she had been suffering from Labyrinthitis [From Wikipedia: a problem of the inner ear. It results in vertigo and also possible hearing loss or ringing in the ears]. The next day she went out at about 11am to buy bread. When she got back she saw all the police from her window. People who rented a flat from her told her that a girl had been killed in the house in front of her. This all happened, as far as she can remember, at mid-day, a little before lunch! She says she had seen Meredith several times in the past. She would see her pass by with her books under her arm and she made an impression on her because Meredith had had one of her lips done really large! She didn’t report the scream earlier because she had been unwell and she had forgotten about the scream and then later she remembered it.

 

[Samson]

Teddy summary of Nara Capezzali’s statement to police on November 27, 2007 (this is one of the new docs)

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/2007-11-27-Witness-deposition-Capezzali.pdf

Nara Capezzali went to bed at about 9:30pm and doesn’t remember what time she got up. When asked to guess what time it might have been, she says 11 or 11:30pm but she doesn’t know. She says the noise came from the house. For 1 minute she looked out the window and she heard the noise of stones and leaves blowing in the street below her, and then a couple of seconds after the scream she heard two people running, one person on the metal stairs that lead out of the car park, the other running towards via Bulagaio or towards the University for Foreigners. She said she didn’t look at the time because there are always people messing about down there. Later she shows doubt about where the noise actually came from. She couldn’t get back to sleep at first and she thought about whether somebody had been mugged because it happens a lot there in the street below, or perhaps a girl had been attacked. The next morning she didn’t mention the scream to her daughter because she wasn’t sure about it. In the two weeks running up to the event she had been suffering from Labyrinthitis [From Wikipedia: a problem of the inner ear. It results in vertigo and also possible hearing loss or ringing in the ears]. The next day she went out at about 11am to buy bread. When she got back she saw all the police from her window. People who rented a flat from her told her that a girl had been killed in the house in front of her. This all happened, as far as she can remember, at mid-day, a little before lunch! She says she had seen Meredith several times in the past. She would see her pass by with her books under her arm and she made an impression on her because Meredith had had one of her lips done really large! She didn’t report the scream earlier because she had been unwell and she had forgotten about the scream and then later she remembered it.

The evidence is pretty good if she heard the noise of stones blowing in the street. Who could forget that?

 

[Kauffer]

The evidence is pretty good if she heard the noise of stones blowing in the street. Who could forget that?

What makes her even more compelling as an ear witness is that she has hearing problems associated with a viral or bacteriological infection.

I mean hats off to the Italians. Brilliant.

 

[Strozzi]

The evidence is pretty good if she heard the noise of stones blowing in the street. Who could forget that?

Anyone can hear stones blowing. It take a bacterial infection in the ear canal to heighten your hearing enough to hear leaves blowing to qualify you as a reliable witness in a Perugia court. I would never qualify myself, but I have a friend who might. He once woke up because he thought he heard a head-on collision between two lorries. It turned out to be two leaves blowing into each other head-on. He did not have a clock around, but knows it was between 11 and 11:30 pm because he had to pee.

I wish Briars is still commenting here. Briars has a vacation villa on a hill in northern Italy. She can occasionally hear the bark of a dog echo across her valley so she is pretty certain that what Nara heard must have been Meredith scream. That is how she knows the murder occurred between 11 and 11:30 pm, instead of between 9 and 9:30 pm as indicated by the stomach contents' digestion rate. I would like to ask Briars if she also occasionally hears the echo of leaves blowing from across her valley. There is an ointment for that.

 

[Samson]

What makes her even more compelling as an ear witness is that she has hearing problems associated with a viral or bacteriological infection.

I mean hats off to the Italians. Brilliant.

Kauffer

I started a thread,
Amanda Knox and the State Department.

It is in Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories sub forum.

The 2009 transcript that Charlie Wilkes posted to IA is high theater, Recommended.

 

[Samson]

Sweet 17. Janice Ian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhFnOAwr96o

 

[Vixen]

Anyone can hear stones blowing. It take a bacterial infection in the ear canal to heighten your hearing enough to hear leaves blowing to qualify you as a reliable witness in a Perugia court. I would never qualify myself, but I have a friend who might. He once woke up because he thought he heard a head-on collision between two lorries. It turned out to be two leaves blowing into each other head-on. He did not have a clock around, but knows it was between 11 and 11:30 pm because he had to pee.

I wish Briars is still commenting here. Briars has a vacation villa on a hill in northern Italy. She can occasionally hear the bark of a dog echo across her valley so she is pretty certain that what Nara heard must have been Meredith scream. That is how she knows the murder occurred between 11 and 11:30 pm, instead of between 9 and 9:30 pm as indicated by the stomach contents' digestion rate. I would like to ask Briars if she also occasionally hears the echo of leaves blowing from across her valley. There is an ointment for that.

I can confirm you can indeed hear dogs bark from miles away. My grandfather had a spitz hunting dog. These are good in the countryside as they bark when hearing strangers approach and also in the hunting season as they will stay put barking until you turn up. (Pappa went elk hunting). The sound of wind is also surprisingly loud.

So, if you can hear dogs from a long way off, whistling wind, thunder, then you can certainly hear a bloodcurdling scream. This is probably a primaeval involuntary response from early ages as a means of signalling for help when in danger.

I've been awoken by screams and was concerned as to where it came from and whether someone was in trouble. I never did find out. I assumed it was someone in childbirth. <g>

 

[sept79]

Yes. I think it's very likely that the issue of Knox's mother's arrival in Perugia would have come up in Knox's police interviews on the 3rd and/or the 4th (and failing that, police interviews with other friends/acquaintances of Knox who would also have known this information). Knox herself might of course remember whether or not this was the case.

And I really do think that once the police (and PM) realized that Knox's mother was arriving, they quickly reasoned that she (mother) might well have the persuasive abilities and the authority over Knox to get her on an aircraft back to Seattle post haste. And since the police now had Knox firmly in their crosshairs as a prime suspect, this was a development that they were not willing to risk happening. Hence the quickly-concocted plan to "break" Knox (by way of "breaking" Sollecito first) on the night of 5th/6th, in order that they'd have sufficient grounds to arrest her and detain her in custody by the time her mother even arrived in Perugia. That way, there was no chance whatsoever (counting on a pliant arraignment judge, of course......) that Knox would ever be able to leave Perugia before she "faced justice".

If not on a flight headed for Seattle, at least lawyered up and with notification and involvement of the U.S. embassy.

The planned interrogation(s) weren't spur of the moment since approximately a dozen interrogators were called in after hours.

 

[Strozzi]

I can confirm you can indeed hear dogs bark from miles away. My grandfather had a spitz hunting dog. These are good in the countryside as they bark when hearing strangers approach and also in the hunting season as they will stay put barking until you turn up. (Pappa went elk hunting). The sound of wind is also surprisingly loud.

So, if you can hear dogs from a long way off, whistling wind, thunder, then you can certainly hear a bloodcurdling scream. This is probably a primaeval involuntary response from early ages as a means of signalling for help when in danger.

I've been awoken by screams and was concerned as to where it came from and whether someone was in trouble. I never did find out. I assumed it was someone in childbirth. <g>

Maybe that's it. Maybe Nara heard someone in childbirth.

Rudi identified Meredith's scream as occurring at about 9:20 pm, while he was in the toilet of course. Rudi said it was so loud that he was concerned people might have heard it from the street. We know that Rudi has woven true information into his story to explain his presence and explain away compromising evidence. The digestive rate indicated Meredith's digestive process ceased in the same general time frame as Rudi's account of the scream (9:20 pm).

Nara may have heard a Halloween-eve commotion and people running near her building. (That is the night young people are deliberately noisy outside.) Or perhaps what Nara heard was another evening. If she had said something to someone the day the murder was discoverd she might be more credible, but she only remembered it several months later after being inundated with newspaper and TV reporting on the crime, the police and onlooker commotion for several days at the cottage, the arrest of the suspects, the fiasco with Lumumba's release, Guede's arrest, and the trials that kept Perugia awake.

There is no proof that the noise Nara later believed she heard happened within the same week of the murder.

 

[Kauffer]

Maybe that's it. Maybe Nara heard someone in childbirth.

Rudi identified Meredith's scream as occurring at about 9:20 pm, while he was in the toilet of course. Rudi said it was so loud that he was concerned people might have heard it from the street. We know that Rudi has woven true information into his story to explain his presence and explain away compromising evidence. The digestive rate indicated Meredith's digestive process ceased in the same general time frame as Rudi's account of the scream (9:20 pm).

Nara may have heard a Halloween-eve commotion and people running near her building. (That is the night young people are deliberately noisy outside.) Or perhaps what Nara heard was another evening. If she had said something to someone the day the murder was discoverd she might be more credible, but she only remembered it several months later after being inundated with newspaper and TV reporting on the crime, the police and onlooker commotion for several days at the cottage, the arrest of the suspects, the fiasco with Lumumba's release, Guede's arrest, and the trials that kept Perugia awake.

There is no proof that the noise Nara later believed she heard happened within the same week of the murder.

That this testimony should be used at all is bad enough, but that it should be used as part of the time of death determination is beyond insane. If Kercher wasn't dead or dying by 9:30pm then I'm a monkey's uncle. All the real evidence points conclusively to it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey's_uncle

 

[katy_did]

The planned interrogation(s) weren't spur of the moment since approximately a dozen interrogators were called in after hours.

But how many officers were at the station overnight during the first three days of this very high profile investigation? Without knowing that it's impossible to say that the number of officers there that night is evidence of anything (some of those there may also not have been there specifically for Raffaele's interrogation, even if they got involved once things got interesting).

ETA: Amanda says they told her they were working on the investigation "24/7" when they took her back to the cottage.

 

[Grinder]

But how many officers were at the station overnight during the first three days of this very high profile investigation? Without knowing that it's impossible to say that the number of officers there that night is evidence of anything (some of those there may also not have been there specifically for Raffaele's interrogation, even if they got involved once things got interesting).

One of the biggest cases in Perugia maybe ever. They had hit a dead end with Shaky and all others. I would think that the citizens would have been upset had the PLE not thrown everything into the investigation.

How many total detectives are there in P? The Rome detectives had nothing else to work on. How many cops were there for the press conference? Did ones that didn't work on the case get to be there?

The mother arriving was known and IIRC they heard on the phone taps. Maybe it bothered them but they had interviewed her everyday since the murder so no change in pattern except they didn't call her in. So the one time she is not brought in is a clear sign they were bringing her in.

Clearly she couldn't leave once arrested. I ask again what they would have done had the text message(s) been erased?

Btw, is it known here how many people were interviewed that night? It was pointed out by some that believe they had the plan to get her that night that 10 PM was still early for them to call her in so still early for them to be there.

 

[Bill Williams]

Maybe that's it. Maybe Nara heard someone in childbirth.

Rudi identified Meredith's scream as occurring at about 9:20 pm, while he was in the toilet of course. Rudi said it was so loud that he was concerned people might have heard it from the street. We know that Rudi has woven true information into his story to explain his presence and explain away compromising evidence. The digestive rate indicated Meredith's digestive process ceased in the same general time frame as Rudi's account of the scream (9:20 pm).

Nara may have heard a Halloween-eve commotion and people running near her building. (That is the night young people are deliberately noisy outside.) Or perhaps what Nara heard was another evening. If she had said something to someone the day the murder was discoverd she might be more credible, but she only remembered it several months later after being inundated with newspaper and TV reporting on the crime, the police and onlooker commotion for several days at the cottage, the arrest of the suspects, the fiasco with Lumumba's release, Guede's arrest, and the trials that kept Perugia awake.

There is no proof that the noise Nara later believed she heard happened within the same week of the murder.

Judge Massei only brought up the issue of suspect-centric investigations once in his motivations report. IMO he had to, the issue he did this for was with regard to Stefanoni's lab work.

Yet, anyone writing a fair motivations report about the evidence would have to become a broken record about suspect-centrism, no more so than with Nara and what it is claimed she heard.

Judges which convicted pushed TO all over the place, but tended to accept Nara and her hearing.... the point about her is that she pretty much destroys someone's timeline...

But the important thing is that the word "scream" enters the case. They'd asked Amanda at interrogation about a scream. She said she didn't hear one, even in her imaginary reconstruction of what might have been. They ask her why not, she replied, "Maybe I had my hands over my ears".

So this morphs into a scream AND Amanda with her hands over her ears, now reinterpreted as avoidance on her part - not a lack of real memory.

Upthread is the really real thing going on - this case was built on judicially generated evidence. Factoids developed out the cops/prosecutor's intervention and imaginings. Truth is that Nara heard nothing as the ABC 20/20 special demonstrated. But they could drag her into court to say the word "scream", and the judicially generated machine took over.

 

[Ken Dine]

Maybe that's it. Maybe Nara heard someone in childbirth.

Rudi identified Meredith's scream as occurring at about 9:20 pm, while he was in the toilet of course. Rudi said it was so loud that he was concerned people might have heard it from the street. We know that Rudi has woven true information into his story to explain his presence and explain away compromising evidence. The digestive rate indicated Meredith's digestive process ceased in the same general time frame as Rudi's account of the scream (9:20 pm).

Nara may have heard a Halloween-eve commotion and people running near her building. (That is the night young people are deliberately noisy outside.) Or perhaps what Nara heard was another evening. If she had said something to someone the day the murder was discoverd she might be more credible, but she only remembered it several months later after being inundated with newspaper and TV reporting on the crime, the police and onlooker commotion for several days at the cottage, the arrest of the suspects, the fiasco with Lumumba's release, Guede's arrest, and the trials that kept Perugia awake.

There is no proof that the noise Nara later believed she heard happened within the same week of the murder.

Due to the construction of the cottage (masonary walls & tile roof), there's no way that a scream could be heard from Meredith's bedroom more than 100 feet away thru their dual-pane windows of these neighbors, especially when Meredith's small CLOSED bedroom window pointed in the opposite direction from that apartment building.

It's a shame that Massei refused defense requests to conduct an expert audiometric test, which should have been done to either refute or support the 3 EAR-witnesses–– At MASSEI on page 21:

…an expert audiometric test was sought (by the defense), to be undertaken to establish whether the witness Nara Capezzali, on the premise of the presence in her dwelling of double-glazed windows, was able to hear the noises and the screams of which she had given an account in her deposition (Massei denied the audiometric test.)

If anyone still feels those women could have heard a scream, and/or running outside thru their double-pane windows, then watch this impromptu test by CBS' Paul Ciolino, which was conducted through the dual-pane windows of Nara Capezzali's neighbor (nothing was heard):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd-Th8lIxyo

 

[Vixen]

Maybe that's it. Maybe Nara heard someone in childbirth.

Rudi identified Meredith's scream as occurring at about 9:20 pm, while he was in the toilet of course. Rudi said it was so loud that he was concerned people might have heard it from the street. We know that Rudi has woven true information into his story to explain his presence and explain away compromising evidence. The digestive rate indicated Meredith's digestive process ceased in the same general time frame as Rudi's account of the scream (9:20 pm).

Nara may have heard a Halloween-eve commotion and people running near her building. (That is the night young people are deliberately noisy outside.) Or perhaps what Nara heard was another evening. If she had said something to someone the day the murder was discoverd she might be more credible, but she only remembered it several months later after being inundated with newspaper and TV reporting on the crime, the police and onlooker commotion for several days at the cottage, the arrest of the suspects, the fiasco with Lumumba's release, Guede's arrest, and the trials that kept Perugia awake.

There is no proof that the noise Nara later believed she heard happened within the same week of the murder.

If Rudy said so, it must be true

 

[Vixen]

But how many officers were at the station overnight during the first three days of this very high profile investigation? Without knowing that it's impossible to say that the number of officers there that night is evidence of anything (some of those there may also not have been there specifically for Raffaele's interrogation, even if they got involved once things got interesting).

ETA: Amanda says they told her they were working on the investigation "24/7" when they took her back to the cottage.

Riii-iight.

USA who has one of the worst human rights record in the world, in regard to execution - 2nd only to extremely cruel China! - where black Americans can get gunned down in the street by police as soon as look at them, get gunned down by goofy kids whilst singing hymns in church and where up until recently children and minors could get life without parole, are going to advise Italy - one of the lowest incarceration rates in the world and up to two automatic appeals for convicts - how to clean up its back yard.

Oh, the irony.

 

[Ken Dine]

But how many officers were at the station overnight during the first three days of this very high profile investigation? Without knowing that it's impossible to say that the number of officers there that night is evidence of anything (some of those there may also not have been there specifically for Raffaele's interrogation, even if they got involved once things got interesting).

ETA: Amanda says they told her they were working on the investigation "24/7" when they took her back to the cottage.

In America detectives keep office hours. Of course, cops take turns being on-call when a crime such as a murder happens outside of office hours (most murders here do happen at night), and witness statements may initially be taken at all hours the first day (while memories are still fresh), but after the first 24 hours detectives working the case will go back to working during their usual office hours. Thus, subsequent routine witness interviews will generally only be scheduled during business hours.

Perhaps, Italian detectives don't need to sleep, but in America we get rather cranky and ineffective here without at least 5 hours sleep.

Most murder cases involve only one or two detectives working the case, but some cases do get assigned a task force when appropriate, and since this case was important to the Italians, having that many detectives working the case may be normal for them?

Even so, when Raffaele was called in the late evening of Nov 5th and asked to come in for yet ANOTHER witness interview, he should have balked and refused to come in at such a late hour without an attorney present. If Raffaele told them he'd schedule an interview for the following day during reasonable hours, what could the Italian cops have done if Raffaele had refused?

Come drag him into the station? If so, Raffaele should have demanded an attorney.

Raffaele should have listened to his dad.

The other weird police deployment in this case was how long it took them to (ineptly) process the crime scene. In America a crime scene is usually processed within 24 hours, maybe 2 days tops. The Italians were still mucking up that crime scene after many months – what's up with that?

 

[Desert Fox]

From watching a number of programs involving false confessions, I took away an important lesson. Ask for a lawyer and invoke you right to be silent right way. In addition, try to walk out the door.