Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[HumanityBlues]

But do you really think that is such a big deal? They could call her in anytime they wanted. I don't understand what importance it has if they asked her in specifically or didn't. Their plans could have been the same either way.

The importance is that we all need something to talk about when there really isn't anything left to talk about before the motivation.

 

[Vixen]

"America also defeated Italy in WWII, but we also defeated Germany and Japan in WWII, but I don’t sense the same anti-American hostility from those other former Axis powers today?"

Resentment against the US is continent wide. In the current issue of Der Spiegel there is an article that claims "The German-American friendship no longer exists."

I have not noticed any.

Sure, there is inter-border leg-pulling, but that is more in a sense of "Viva la difference!".

 

[Dougm]

The importance is that we all need something to talk about when there really isn't anything left to talk about before the motivation.

Agree with that! But the point being put forth is that the police called in Raff, and did not summon Amanda. So what? I don't see how that proves or disproves they wanted to put the screws to her that evening. It is clear that, for the PLE, the evening is only just getting started at 10 PM.

 

[Strozzi]

It appears to me that the evidence that has been put forth to support this theory borders on a proof that the theory is correct. There are many details in this case where it would be interesting to know more about what the truth of the issue is. This isn't one of them for me. It seems like the facts are fairly well known and one can feel fairly confident that what LJ suggests is correct. I was surprised at the breadth and depth of evidence that people managed to find to support the theory LJ puts forth here. There are a great many other details in this case where such solid evidence to support a particular view is not available.

The police were monitoring Amanda's emails and phone calls. They should have heard the call to Amanda from her aunt in Germany telling her to come to Germany. Perhaps Amanda told her mother of Amanda's aunt's call, and the police heard that too. The police had to be concerned that Amanda would decide to go. These communications would have been additional cause of concern that Amanda might leave. Her aunt might even have arrived in Perugia to fetch Amanda, with no advance word learned by the police.

 

[Vixen]

Now I know,
from reading over a thousand of Vixen's posts here on The ISF,
that she truly believes the early newspaper reports of this horrible rape and murder we discuss.

So Vixen,
what do you make of this paragraph from a story in an Italian newspaper dated Nov. 7, 2007?

COLPO INFERTO DA UN UOMO - C'è di più. La profondità della ferita sul collo della vittima - sempre da quanto trapelato - porterebbe a escludere che ad uccidere la studentessa inglese sia stata Amanda Knox. Sarebbe dunque Lumumba Diya il principale sospettato dell'omicidio. Gli inquirenti avrebbero inoltre in mano elementi che confermerebbero la presenza nell'abitazione di Amanda al momento dell'omicidio e si attendono i risultati delle analisi scientifiche - ancora in corso in queste ore - per "collocare" la ragazza, che negli interrogatori ha negato di aver assistito alla scena, dicendo di aver sentito delle grida da un'altra stanza.

What's it say?:
Here's from Google translation:
Blow FROM A MAN - There's more. The depth of the wound on the neck of the victim - always from what leaked - would lead to exclude that killing the British student was Amanda Knox. It would therefore Lumumba Diya the main suspect in the murder. Investigators would also holding elements which would confirm the presence in the home of Amanda at the time of the murder and is awaiting the results of scientific analysis - still in progress at this time - to "sell" the girl, that interrogators denied having witnessed the scene, he said he heard screams from another room.

Link:
http://www.corriere.it/cronache/07_novembre_07/delitto_perugia_lumumba.shtml

Blow FROM A MAN?

SDL Translation also calls it this:
BLOW BY A MAN - there is more to it. The depth of the injury on the neck of the victim - always leaked - would lead to exclude that to kill the student english has been Amanda Knox.


Odd how PM Mignini
(as quoted in this Time magazine article dated Nov. 30, 2009,
written by none other than Nina Burleigh,
turned it into Amanda Knox taking a knife and saying this):
In final arguments, Perugia's public prosecutor Giuliano Mignini said the American slit her roommate's throat on the night of Nov. 1, 2007, driven by sexual desire and alpha-female competitiveness. Asking for a life sentence with nine months' isolation, Mignini said "La Knox" wanted a sex "game" and used her feminine wiles to manipulate two besotted young men — one of whom is already convicted, the other on trial with her — into restraining Kercher while she plunged a kitchen knife into her neck.

"Probably she would have insulted Meredith," Mignini said, reconstructing the event with representatives of the U.S. embassy seated silently a few feet behind the defense table. "And she probably said, 'You are always behaving like a little saint. Now we will show you, and now we will make you have sex!'"

Link:
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1943553,00.html


But,
but, but Vixen,
I thought early Italian newspaper reports said it was a BLOW BY A MAN?

* * *

Now on another topic,
most believe that those were not African hairs found in Meredith's bedroom, right?

But at the time,
before forensic results came in on these hairs or fibers,
as some believe that they are,
well the police probably believed them to hair strands from a black male.

It's not hard to believe that the cops
were looking for a black male at the time of Amanda's arrest,
but when real evidence results came in, just substituted 1 black man for another,
right?

My gut instincts and experience (from researching British Museum Newspaper Library) are that early reports and police investigations tend to be more accurate than late PR, political and defense spin. I have mentioned this before.

For example, if you want to understand 9/11, watch the developing news broadcasts.

That's not to say the reports are accurate, but tend to be more true on an emotional level.

Think about it, history books are written by the victors. Go to a newspaper library to find out the story, before the victors won. That gives you a better over view.

In this case, you have a brutal murder. Police have to think on their feet. Faced with a stab in the neck, the police profilers will tell them they should be looking for a man, as female murders by stabbing are extraordinarily rare. (cf Jodi Arias, Joanna Dehenny, Tracey Andrews.)

Mignini saw the murder scene, the body and each of the accused in person.

IMV his early theory is more accurate than "row over unflushed toilet". There are lots of depraved sexual elements here, not to mention Kokomani's claim of rehearsal the day before.

That's not to say it is conclusive evidence. That was for the court to decide.

 

[Grinder]

But do you really think that is such a big deal? They could call her in anytime they wanted. I don't understand what importance it has if they asked her in specifically or didn't. Their plans could have been the same either way.

No it's not really important. They could have called her but they didn't. One of the few facts we know for sure. I'd ask why it's important for those making the case out of whole cloth or almost whole cloth? But, it sounds so good to say they were hurrying to beat her mother's arrival. More big bad wolf.

I bothers me to have factoids and memes. I don't need no stinkin' "beat mama meme" to know they didn't make the case against the kids.

 

[zotz]

The police were monitoring Amanda's emails and phone calls. They should have heard the call to Amanda from her aunt in Germany telling her to come to Germany. Perhaps Amanda told her mother of Amanda's aunt's call, and the police heard that too. The police had to be concerned that Amanda would decide to go. These communications would have been additional cause of concern that Amanda might leave. Her aunt might even have arrived in Perugia to fetch Amanda, with no advance word learned by the police.

Just as bad as leaving Italy would be asking for help from the U.S. Embassy or getting a defense lawyer. Anyone that has seen Postman Always Rings Twice knows that the way you get two lovers is to set them against each other. That can only be done before the lawyers arrive. So they wanted them both and the way to get Amanda was through Raff and vice-versa.

 

[Vixen]

You think Amanda's coerced statements to the police were "unprompted"? Not on this planet.

Guede is your source for what Kercher said about Amanda? That's reliable! According to Guede, Kercher had a date that night with him. What exactly is the problem with Amanda inviting friends to her home? They weren't strange to her and nobody complained. How were her roommates made vulnerable? And why do you describe Kercher as "home-alone"? This is a wilful misrepresentation - as if strangers simply showed up at the apartment at Amanda's behest and Kercher never went out. Fantasy.

One of your greatest problems is a skewed perspective - another is that you make stuff up. Amanda privately revealing that Kercher borrowed condoms from her is not 'telling all who would listen". You only know about it because Amanda's communications were made public. And it can hardly be payback for Kercher objecting to her bringing friends to the apartment, because Kercher did not object. There is no evidence for it.

There is lots of evidence. For example, John Kercher in his book. Mez' friends in their statements. The email home to +25 people can hardly be described as "private", when Amanda therein urges these +25 people to talk to journalists (presumably to set off the spin set out in the email).

 

[Strozzi]

Really? Perhaps you could give two pieces that support this theory. As Strozzi said and I agree they could have held her as a material witness, hell it took three days after the arrest for her to see a judge.

Her mother AND her aunt in Germany had suggested she leave but she didn't.

The biggest problem with the theory is they didn't call in Amanda.
It may have crossed their minds and seemed a bother but I doubt it was a major factor. Not even Giobbi said so.

Grinder, the night was early. There was plenty of time to get a real or police-distorted contradictory statement from the boyfriend and use that to then go to his flat and roust the American girl. At mignight. At 2 am. At 4 am, whatever. One step at a time. Giobbi told them to bring them both in. They first brought Raffaele in. Amanda was next, but she was afraid to be alone. (Her father had even cautioned her to be careful as there was a killer on the lose who targeted her cottage.) She rode with Raffaele in his car.

 

[Vixen]

Would you please reveal what you do believe then?

After your 1,000+ posts here, I think its fair to ask.

Do you believe Rudy's version? That he was there on a date and let in by Meredith, and had consensual relations?

It would be helpful to understanding your views if you could provide a timeline you believe to be accurate, as to when and where Amanda and Raf were that night, and when you believe the assault occurred and who participated. (Given that a witness saw them at Raf's apt at 840pm, and most here think the crime occurred shortly after 9pm and Meredith could not have been alive after roughly 10pm.)

Rather than hiding behind generalities and obscurantism, why not just lay your cards on the table? Put forward a concrete hypothesis that can actually be tested, and lets have a real discussion, eh?

Considering your great number of posts, I think its a reasonable request.

I have told you before, I consider Rudy to be a compulsive liar (and Raff and Amanda).

 

[Vixen]

I really think many folks have misread Vixen's posts here, as being indicative of what Vixen actually believes. I think Vixen would be just as happy posting for innocence on the hate sites, under a different handle of course, if they allowed opposing views.

You have made a knowingly untrue claim.

 

[Grinder]

The police were monitoring Amanda's emails and phone calls. They should have heard the call to Amanda from her aunt in Germany telling her to come to Germany. Perhaps Amanda told her mother of Amanda's aunt's call, and the police heard that too. The police had to be concerned that Amanda would decide to go. These communications would have been additional cause of concern that Amanda might leave. Her aunt might even have arrived in Perugia to fetch Amanda, with no advance word learned by the police.

Strozzi as you said before the police could detain a material witness or they could have arrested her even without the statement. Why didn't they bring her in earlier to stop her from driving to Germany?

It was Raf that cracked and spewed out crazy stuff - yes yes I know the police pressured him severely but had he not made that statement what would they have done?

And what if the text message wasn't there.

I'm convinced the PLE would have had no trouble keeping Amanda in Italy.

 

[Vixen]

It's interesting that van der Leek has gone begging for (positive) reviews on TJMK.
The reviews on his books about the case are a shouting match between colpevolisti praising them into high heavens and innocentisti shouting back "Don't buy!"
With the propaganda war ongoing it's interesting how Van der Leek handled a real review dealing with the contents of his book "Dark Matter":

What does that mean? "Don't read my books about the case if you are able of thinking for yourself or have read other sources besides the Daily Mail about the case?"
Who does he think he is kidding? (I won't go into the details about the effects of trying to impress people by using a misspelled German word...)

It's Yiddish ?

 

[Strozzi]

There is lots of evidence. For example, John Kercher in his book. Mez' friends in their statements. The email home to +25 people can hardly be described as "private", when Amanda therein urges these +25 people to talk to journalists (presumably to set off the spin set out in the email).

Vixen, I'm not familiar with this claim. Would you please elaborate? Can you point us to this email where "Amanda therein urges +25 people to talk to journalists"?

Your credibility is on the line and I'm sure you will point us to the email document so we will know you are accurate.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder, the night was early. There was plenty of time to get a real or police-distorted contradictory statement from the boyfriend and use that to then go to his flat and roust the American girl. At mignight. At 2 am. At 4 am, whatever. One step at a time. Giobbi told them to bring them both in. They first brought Raffaele in. Amanda was next, but she was afraid to be alone. (Her father had even cautioned her to be careful as there was a killer on the lose who targeted her cottage.) She rode with Raffaele in his car.

No Giobbi didn't tell them to bring both in. He just puffed himself up later to look like the star. The other cops and Amanda say it didn't happen. The cops at the station were pissed she showed up. Maybe he just thought he ordered it and was just another bad witness - we all know how bad eye witnesses are.

All we know is that they didn't call her in. There is nothing to back Giobbi except Giobbi and Frank's story from months later relating what a person that wasn't there said. I've looked for any other story from those dates and nada.

Do you honestly think that she would have been allowed to leave?

 

[Grinder]

It's Yiddish ?

It's both. But misspelled regardless

 

[Grinder]

There is lots of evidence. For example, John Kercher in his book. Mez' friends in their statements. The email home to +25 people can hardly be described as "private", when Amanda therein urges these +25 people to talk to journalists (presumably to set off the spin set out in the email).

No she urges them not to talk about it or share it.

This is an email for everyone, because I would like to get it all out and not have to repeat myself a hundred times like Ive been having to do at the police station. Some of you already know some things, some of you know nothing. What I'm about to say I cant say to journalists or newspapers, and I require that of anyone receiving this information as well.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, I'm not familiar with this claim. Would you please elaborate? Can you point us to this email where "Amanda therein urges +25 people to talk to journalists"?

Your credibility is on the line and I'm sure you will point us to the email document so we will know you are accurate.

This is an email for everyone, because id like to get it all out and
not have to repeat myself a hundred times like ive been having to do
at the police station. some of you already know some things, some of
you know nothing. what im about to say i cant say to journalists or
newspapers, and i require that of anone receiving this information as
well. this is m account of how i found my roommate murdered the
morning of friday, november 2nd.
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Amanda_Knox's_Email_Home

ETA Ninja-ed.

 

[carbonjam72]

All hail the great OZ...

You have made a knowingly untrue claim.

What would that be?

In the post directly above you once again avoided actually taking any position at all, and continue to cling to your mystical agnosticism on any and all matters of the case.

I'll repeat my request for you, since you seemed not to have digested it:

""Originally Posted by carbonjam72 Would you please reveal what you do believe then? After your 1,000+ posts here, I think its fair to ask. Do you believe Rudy's version? That he was there on a date and let in by Meredith, and had consensual relations? It would be helpful to understanding your views if you could provide a timeline you believe to be accurate, as to when and where Amanda and Raf were that night, and when you believe the assault occurred and who participated. (Given that a witness saw them at Raf's apt at 840pm, and most here think the crime occurred shortly after 9pm and Meredith could not have been alive after roughly 10pm.) Rather than hiding behind generalities and obscurantism, why not just lay your cards on the table? Put forward a concrete hypothesis that can actually be tested, and lets have a real discussion, eh? Considering your great number of posts, I think its a reasonable request.""

 

[Grinder]

Just as bad as leaving Italy would be asking for help from the U.S. Embassy or getting a defense lawyer. Anyone that has seen Postman Always Rings Twice knows that the way you get two lovers is to set them against each other. That can only be done before the lawyers arrive. So they wanted them both and the way to get Amanda was through Raff and vice-versa.

Raf's dad had already consulted an attorney and the PLE knew it.