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South Carolina, tear down that flag!

That's it. The flag is coming down once and for all.

A great day for America, which has suffered the historical revisionism and cognitive dissonance of Confederate sympathizers for far too long.
 
Yet there are something like 72 Confederate monuments in Kentucky, and only 2 monuments to the Union.

I did find that rather odd when I read it, so I did a little research. (Several minutes of googling.) The answer is easy enough. Most of them were privately funded.



Meanwhile, in the US House of Representatives, an anti-flag bill was passed. It seems that there are some confederate Civil War veterans buried in federal cemeteries, and some (private) knaves and scoundrels have been known to put Confederate flags on the graves from time to time. These are temporary things, put up for Confederate Memorial Day (I haven't googled it yet. I didn't know it existed), and taken down shortly thereafter.

Well that's quite enough of that! Such an outrage will no longer be allowed.
 
I commend Rep. Jenny Horne for her emotional plea to take down the flag, though it is yet another example of how social empathy among some lawmakers must be linked directly to a personal experience in order to hold relevance for their constituents.

http://www.wistv.com/story/29506091/charleston-lawmakers-emotional-plea-the-world-is-watching

“If any of you vote to amend,” she shouted, “You are ensuring that this flag will fly beyond Friday. And for the widow of Sen. [Clementa] Pinckney and his two young daughters, that would be adding insult to injury. And I will not be a part of it.”

On the floor of the South Carolina Senate Tuesday, the son of longtime US Senator and segregationist Dixiecrat Strom Thurmond made an impassioned call to remove the Confederate flag from the statehouse.

Rep. State Sen. Paul Thurmond provided brave leadership on how future generations can overcome the sins and prejudices of their fathers. His words should inspire hope for the future and bear repeating here.

I think the time is right and the ground is fertile for us to make progress as a state and to come together and remove the Confederate battle flag from prominent statue outside the Statehouse and put it in the museum. It is time to acknowledge our past, atone for our sins and work towards a better future. That future must be built on symbols of peace, love, and unity. That future cannot be built on symbols of war, hate, and divisiveness.

I am aware of my heritage. But my appreciation for the things that my forebears accomplished to make my life better doesn’t mean that I must believe that they always made the right decisions and, for the life of me, I will never understand how anyone could fight a civil war based, in part, on the desire to continue the practice of slavery. Think about it for just a second. Our ancestors were literally fighting to continue to keep human beings as slaves and continue the unimaginable acts that occur when someone is held against their will. I am not proud of this heritage. These practices were inhumane and were wrong, wrong, wrong.
 
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Well, there go the goal posts again.

Do you even remember the argument you started with?

Yes, you can find it in post 399 and its followups.

The post in 518 seems particularly relevant given the bill that was passed in the House. (For those not wishing to look for it, that post had a reference to "dancing on the graves" of the vanquished.)
 
Meanwhile, in the US House of Representatives, an anti-flag bill was passed. It seems that there are some confederate Civil War veterans buried in federal cemeteries, and some (private) knaves and scoundrels have been known to put Confederate flags on the graves from time to time. These are temporary things, put up for Confederate Memorial Day (I haven't googled it yet. I didn't know it existed), and taken down shortly thereafter.

Well that's quite enough of that! Such an outrage will no longer be allowed.

The post in 518 seems particularly relevant given the bill that was passed in the House. (For those not wishing to look for it, that post had a reference to "dancing on the graves" of the vanquished.)

Actually no bill was passed by the House. An amendment was added to a Park Service Appropriation bill. It is going to be removed before the bill is voted on by the House.
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/house-gop-takes-step-back-on-confederate-flags-119889.html
 
The actions by the SC government are great, if long overdue.

I can understand honoring ancestors. I can even understand honoring them as people, even if they fought for absolutely the wrong cause. But then why honor them by using a symbol of the hateful cause for which they fought? Why not use a more appropriate symbol for them if your purpose is "heritage" and not "hate"? I am certain there must be many symbols of personal courage, of patriotism that can be used instead and that don't symbolize treason and slavery.
 
Actually no bill was passed by the House. An amendment was added to a Park Service Appropriation bill. It is going to be removed before the bill is voted on by the House.
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/house-gop-takes-step-back-on-confederate-flags-119889.html

I stand corrected. The initial report I read called it "a bill". It was actually an amendment to an appropriations bill. Now there's some parliamentary maneuvering going on to figure out how to deal with the appropriations bill that now has the tacked on amendment that would prohibit the flag display on the soldiers' graves. There may or may not be a vote. It's a breaking news story. When I checked google news, there were several slightly contradictory versions of exactly what is happening.


Meanwhile I looked up Confederate Memorial Day, and learned some other interesting trivia. It was begun by some ladies' society members in 1866, to be observed on the anniversary of General Johnston's surrender. A few years later, a Union general seemed to think it was a good idea for the union to observe something like that, too. His proposal gained ground, and it eventually became Memorial Day.
 
That sort of blanket statement would lead me to think of bigots. :rolleyes:

Right, because there is no reason to believe that the large base of Nascars fans might be more racist than the general population.
 
Right, because there is no reason to believe that the large base of Nascars fans might be more racist than the general population.

Why would you say this?

A good friend of mine displays her confederate battle flag with the number "43" on it because it was given to her by her dad in the 70's (at the first race she saw).

Personally, I find your explanation to be disturbing (to say the least).
 
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I commend Rep. Jenny Horne for her emotional plea to take down the flag, though it is yet another example of how social empathy among some lawmakers must be linked directly to a personal experience in order to hold relevance for their constituents.

http://www.wistv.com/story/29506091/charleston-lawmakers-emotional-plea-the-world-is-watching





Rep. State Sen. Paul Thurmond provided brave leadership on how future generations can overcome the sins and prejudices of their fathers. His words should inspire hope for the future and bear repeating here.

Jenny Horne - A female Southern Republican who's speech got the flag removed. I will bet that someone in the GOP is starting background research on her. She might make a very good VP candidate. After the Grizzly Soccer Momma, I'm sure the GOP will be a little more cautious about plucking candidates from obscurity, but she could be someone to consider.
 
Yes, you can find it in post 399 and its followups.
Circled around again, then. None of this has to do with your earlier argument that the Confederate flag symbolizing something different than the Confederacy or how having a racist coaster is not racist because you had a great-great-grandfather who fought for black slavery.
 
The actions by the SC government are great, if long overdue.

I can understand honoring ancestors. I can even understand honoring them as people, even if they fought for absolutely the wrong cause. But then why honor them by using a symbol of the hateful cause for which they fought? Why not use a more appropriate symbol for them if your purpose is "heritage" and not "hate"? I am certain there must be many symbols of personal courage, of patriotism that can be used instead and that don't symbolize treason and slavery.

There are a lot of hypothetical ways that other people might answer the question. I don't know if there is any symbol, though, that could be connected with their service, but could not be connected with treason and slavery. That was kind of the point of their service.

As an aside, treason and slavery have a pretty strong role in American history, not just in the South. The Union army had an awful lot of pro-slavery folks in it. To say they were fighting against slavery just doesn't hold up. The American economy, not just the Southern economy, was very much built around slavery. Slavery was a dying institution, but it was far from dead in 1860.

My own answer is, "Why not?" Ok, fine, they fought in a lousy cause, but it was their cause. They are historical figures. We have battlefields. Battlefields are where two armies met. One of them was from the South and had a certain symbol. In souvenir shops at a battlefield, it seems to me to make sense to offer souvenirs representing the people who fought on that battlefield, and the symbols they used when fighting seem to fit pretty well with that. Maybe that guy buying coasters wants to celebrate racism every time he opens up a Pabst Blue Ribbon. Maybe that guy wants to use them as archery targets. Maybe.....who cares? They are coasters.

However, some people oppose such things. Those things were associated with slavery, dammit, and SLAVERY IS WRONG! They courageously take on the pro-slavery forces, one coaster at a time. Yes, it is just a coaster, but it is an evil coaster! "IN MY HOUSE, THAT FLAG WILL NOT COAST!"

Ummm...yeah. Very noble.

And now, in Congress, you have people saying that gravestones cannot be marked in the traditional way, with the flag under which the soldier fought. Well, whatever. It all looks like political grandstanding and posturing to me. It's an opportunity for people to take a meaningless stand and pretend it's something important. Some old lady goes out and marks her ancient forebears' graves with Confederate Battle Flags because, who knows why, but her dad did it, too. Well, not anymore! That is an outrage up with which we shall not put!

ETA: And, just in case anyone has forgotten, I, too, think it makes no sense to fly that particular flag in that particular place in South Carolina.
 
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There are a lot of hypothetical ways that other people might answer the question. I don't know if there is any symbol, though, that could be connected with their service, but could not be connected with treason and slavery. That was kind of the point of their service.


And if you realize that, why do you feel the "service" element of their life is the one that needs to be especially held up and honored with symbolism? Is his Confederate enrollment the be-all, end-all of your relative's identity, the limit of your knowledge of him? Did he do nothing else worth acknowledging, besides fight for a cause you concede is contemptible?
 

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