South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[mijopaalmc]

Which is coast-to-coast.

But the Confederate Battle Flag is a particularly potent regional symbol of racial hatred, as it represents an entity that set itself apart for the express purpose of owing people on the basis of their race.

 

[SezMe]

So among those who display the symbol, it's no longer a matter of "they're either racists or ignorant of the flag's history"; it's more like "they're racists<continued below>, or they're fully aware that the flag has racist connotations and don't care".

...and are proud of it....

 

[Mumbles]

Which is coast-to-coast.

Sure. Fine.

Take it down.

 

[Meadmaker]

Major retailers, television networks, and other internet sites have stopped its use, making it clear that they consider it a symbol of racial hatred.

I think that makes it clear that it is a symbol of lost profits.

 

[Foolmewunz]

I would love to see that Georgia study if anyone can find a link to the survey itself. The Post's summary struck me as odd.

Still, it would not surprise me if the general trend was correct, that the more they know about history, the less they support the flag. I suspect that history buffs would have a certain respect for the memory of the men (mostly boys really) who fought under the flag, but much less respect for men who fly it out of the back of their pickup truck. I just doubt that particular survey was a very good judge of civil war knowledge.

For what it's worth, I would be perfectly happy to get rid of all the cheap trinkets from battlefield gift shop. Maybe there ought to be a little more solemnity than can be found on a belt buckle. Limit sales to books, maps, and educational materials. If they did that, I wouldn't complain. Singling out memorabilia from one set of the people that fought there, though, doesn't seem quite right to me.

No link to the actual study but an article with some of the details.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...really-is-about-racism-not-southern-heritage/

 

[Checkmite]

I think that makes it clear that it is a symbol of lost profits.

What I meant was, they've all released statements to the effect that they're not carrying it because of the racial hatred connotations.

 

[Meadmaker]

No link to the actual study but an article with some of the details.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...really-is-about-racism-not-southern-heritage/

From the article:

Knowledge about Southern history was measured with two questions: whether the respondent could correctly identify the famous Union general, William Tecumseh Sherman, and the number of Civil War battles the respondent could name. (In our analysis, no credit was given for additional battles named after the first two.)

So that is "knowledge of Southern history"? And, if you lived in Georgia, where this test was administered, you know the name "Sherman". How did they ask to recognize him? A picture? A description other than, "The Yankee S.O.B. who burned Atlanta"? And who can't name two Civil War battles? Especially when you probably took a school field trip to one of them? My guess is that either the nature of the exact questions was such to deceive, or the number of those 522 people who failed to get all three points was about 16, and they were all dumb as stumps. And yes, I would suggest that the "dumb as stumps" crowd would be more likely to support the confederate flag (and to not know the difference between the battle flag and the Stars and Bars)

Or, even more likely, I know that I occasionally see surveys whose questions are so leading that I find them insulting, and I stop partway through. A fair number of people probably left some of the answers blank, and there would be a correlation between flag support and the number of people insulted by the leading questions.

Based on the description of the survey, I would bet anyone that the survey was conducted very, very, poorly.


As I said, I wouldn't be surprised that the conclusion was generally correct, but, as skeptics, it would be interesting to see how the survey or the analysis thereof were manipulated to achieve a desired answer.

 

[Meadmaker]

It doesn't "represent the region", stop saying that. It represents racial hatred.

Semiotics can be fascinating.

A symbol represents something in the mind of the viewer. Different viewers, different meanings. You can't pick what it represents in someone else's mind.


On the other hand, heraldry, including flags, also have specific, designated, things that they represent. The American flag represents the USA. The Confederate Flag represents the CSA. The Confederate Battle Flag represents....well, officially, the Army of Tennessee. The square version represents the Army of Northern Virginia. It was used by other armies as well. The design was incorporated into the second CSA national flag, so it could be said to represent the entire CSA. There is no CSA anymore, but I think people could be forgiven if they said it represents the area of the country where the CSA used to be.

For me, I'm interested in history, and that interest began by playing wargames. That flag was on some little cardboard counters, or setup areas on the map. That flag will always represent the army to me.

Or, you could just insist that it means whatever you think it means, and you wouldn't be technically wrong, (see the second sentence above) but it would be a bit self centered.

 

[thaiboxerken]

NASCAR has asked fans not to display the battle flag at races. Methinks this will backfire.

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/07/02/nascar-tracks-unite-ask-fans-not-to-fly-confederate-flag/

Steve S

I agree. I suspect there are lots of racists in the Nascar fanbase.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Intelligence and education are failures when the critical component of wisdom is absent as it is necessary for the practical application of intelligence to the betterment of all.

"Wisdom" like " it's heritage not hate"?

Seriously?

 

[thaiboxerken]

Intelligence and education are failures when the critical component of wisdom is absent as it is necessary for the practical application of intelligence to the betterment of all.

"Wisdom" like " it's heritage not hate"?

Seriously?

It was in Louisiana where I was explained the diffence between a ****** and a black person. It was in Alabama where my Japanese ancestry is why I'm smart. It was in Georgia where I was informed that Barack Obama is the anti-Christ.

Wisdom indeed.

 

[Ladewig]

And who can't name two Civil War battles?

I think I might have some issues with the survey as well, but I am surprised that you are surprised that people cannot list civil war battles. There are large swaths of American who know very little about American history.

 

[Travis]

I think I might have some issues with the survey as well, but I am surprised that you are surprised that people cannot list civil war battles. There are large swaths of American who know very little about American history.

Yeah, the ones that continue to think a symbol the rest of the world regards as being unambiguously a statement in favor of racism is somehow just a regional heritage thing completely divorced from racism just because they say so.

Similarly tomorrow I'm walking up to a random woman and telling her "may all the horses rape you tonight."

Now TO ME all I said was "hope the day finds you doing well" because TO ME the word "may" actually means "hope" the word "all" really means "the" and so on. And if she gets upset I'll just call her a word fascist and declare myself a victim.

 

[Ladewig]

Yeah, the ones that continue to think a symbol the rest of the world regards as being unambiguously a statement in favor of racism is somehow just a regional heritage thing completely divorced from racism just because they say so.

Similarly tomorrow I'm walking up to a random woman and telling her "may all the horses rape you tonight."

Now TO ME all I said was "hope the day finds you doing well" because TO ME the word "may" actually means "hope" the word "all" really means "the" and so on. And if she gets upset I'll just call her a word fascist and declare myself a victim.

Lighten up, Travis
I find the poll results exceptionally believable. I was merely concerned that the article whisked over the steps they took to control for education.

I am happy that the flag is coming down.

 

[Mumbles]

Lighten up, Travis
I find the poll results exceptionally believable. I was merely concerned that the article whisked over the steps they took to control for education.

I am happy that the flag is coming down.

I think it is an important point, although naming individual battles is really just a proxy for general knowledge of the confederacy. But the more about it one knows, the more likely one is to recognize the confederate battle flag as a symbol of white supremacy.

 

[Mumbles]

Semiotics can be fascinating.

A symbol represents something in the mind of the viewer. Different viewers, different meanings. You can't pick what it represents in someone else's mind.


On the other hand, heraldry, including flags, also have specific, designated, things that they represent. The American flag represents the USA. The Confederate Flag represents the CSA. The Confederate Battle Flag represents....well, officially, the Army of Tennessee. The square version represents the Army of Northern Virginia. It was used by other armies as well. The design was incorporated into the second CSA national flag, so it could be said to represent the entire CSA. There is no CSA anymore, but I think people could be forgiven if they said it represents the area of the country where the CSA used to be.

For me, I'm interested in history, and that interest began by playing wargames. That flag was on some little cardboard counters, or setup areas on the map. That flag will always represent the army to me.

Or, you could just insist that it means whatever you think it means, and you wouldn't be technically wrong, (see the second sentence above) but it would be a bit self centered.

So...taking the people who raised the flag at their word as to what it means is "self-centered"?

Well, in that case, fine, I'm self-centered.

Take it down.

 

[Darat]

“Do I think it’s an error? Yes. Because Dukes of Hazzard was one of the most beloved shows ever."

By the people who loved it, at least.

Wasn't really the kind of show that appealed to me as a kid apart from some of the eye candy. Curiously I don't recall many non white folk on the show, is that just my faulty recollection?

 

[Darat]

I think I might have some issues with the survey as well, but I am surprised that you are surprised that people cannot list civil war battles. There are large swaths of American who know very little about American history.

Or of any history (not singling out USA folk it's probably true of most people).

 

[tsig]

Not being a southerner, except by current residence, hard for me to say.

My overall impression can likely be gleaned by watching "Gone With The Wind" - a work of fiction but I think it tried to portray the feelings and motivations of many of the ordinary people fighting for the Confederacy.



What's pretty clear to me is that in your heart of hearts you hold yourself as being smarter than the "ignorant" 57% you disagree with. That's the kind of elitism that I do not find flattering.

Smart enough not to want to be associated with losers.

 

[Cleon]

Wasn't really the kind of show that appealed to me as a kid apart from some of the eye candy. Curiously I don't recall many non white folk on the show, is that just my faulty recollection?

Your recollection is correct; if TV shows had hex codes, DOH would be pretty damn close to #ffffff.