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South Carolina, tear down that flag!

lobosrul said:
I guess maybe when I was a middle school/ high school student in Texas was during some sort of liberal renaissance period. It was around when Anne Richards was governor. Because I remember several times being angry at how liberal the teacher was (grew up in a right wing household, and my political views have changed). I can only think of one instance where a teacher expressed really right wing views: "AIDS is gods wrath for the gays" from a science teacher. But, several political discussions where it was clear the teacher was at least moderately left. Pro-choice, ranting about the NRA, the founding fathers really meant guns were for a state run militia, and how terrible the atomic bombing of japan was come to mind. Also, one of the best math teachers I ever had was also the basketball coach.
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Your experience in Texas is completely different than my experience in Texas.
 
Meadmaker said:
Well, context is everything, isn't it? If you run a Nazi flag up the flag pole in your yard, regardless of what you are thinking, the neighbors might look askance. Likewise with a rebel flag. Of course, some of the neighbors might approve, because they might be racists and think that you are racist, whether or not you are. So, use either flag with caution.*

But if your father or grandfather fought in the German army in WW II, I don't think you need to be ashamed, and if somewhere in your family memorabilia there were Nazi logos associated with his military service, I don't think you need to hide them away or burn them. Your reverence for your relatives need not be completely destroyed just because you disagree with the ideology of the army they fought under. I like the scene from Henry V:



Fighting for the confederacy, or the Nazis, or the USA in a just or unjust war, they were soldiers. They don't bear the burden of the sins of the politicians who led them to war.


I also don't put much stock in the magic power of symbols. They don't taint everything they touch. I used the example of the coasters because I read the article about banning them at Vicksburg. However, my hypothetical example of me using such coasters was based on a real example. Some friends of mine used to gather to play a WWII armor miniatures game. This friend had a collection of military hats. I never knew where he got them, but they included Russian, and American, and Nazi hats. We wore the hat of the team we were playing. My conscience is clear. I don't think I was supporting the holocaust.

_________________________
*I have a rainbow in my front yard right now. I wonder what the neighbors think.
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I also don't believe in any magic power for symbols. I do believe in the symbolic power of symbols, and in the case of both it is symbolic of something icky. Something no government should be seen as supporting by prominently and reverently displaying the symbol.

As you say, context is everything. In these cases (flags), flying the Swastika in front of the German Consulate would be as offensive as flying the Stars & Bars in front of a State House (as in SC), as they are both official government entities that should not be supportive of such offensive ideologies that took wars to put down.

Taking the Rebel flag (or Swastika) off war games is a bit much. I know I've played games with both on the cover, and am not upset by either. Again, context.

Rebel place mats? As a souvenir shop? at a Civil War battlefield? I don't have a particular issue with this. Of course, would I have an issue with Nazi souvenirs at a WWII battleground? Not sure that would fly.

If descendants of combatants believe flying the Swastika or Stars & Bars in memory of their departed... They can do what they want, but as you indicate, they are sending a message they may not intend, which is the point.
 
The Greater Fool said:
flying the Stars & Bars in front of a State House (as in SC),
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[QUIBBLE] It isn't the Stars and Bars. It is the Confederate Battle Flag, sometimes called the "Southern Cross". The Stars and Bars was the first official national flag of the CSA. This quibble is of no significance whatsoever, but I'm into historical trivia.[/QUIBBLE]

Other than that, though, I agree with you.
 
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I really don't understand how this conversation is still going on. I'm pretty sure that all the "Anti-Flag" crew will concede that for a very limited number of people raised in certain eras or certain locations, it is conceivable that they genuinely do not or did not know of the associations between this battle flag and the KKK, White Citizens' Councils and Segregrationists. I recall a story of a town on Long Island (South Somewhere) who picked the nickname "Rebels" and actually paraded the flag and sang Dixie. But it was a play on being "SOUTH Somewhereville"... South, southern, rebels, get it... They actually (from the testimony of townspeople and students at the time) had no idea as to the associations and were a tad stunned when they saw their team emblem being waved by bigots.

And they changed their nickname and emblem, as a result of being made aware of the connotations and associations.

And it may be possible that the town bad boy in Bangor grew up with no knowledge or concern of the actual heritage behind the faux heritage being espoused and put a Confederate flag on his leather jacket to thumb his nose at the world, not giving a rat's ass about segregation.

But people who live(d) and grow(grew) up in the south? Sorry, but if they insist on flying/displaying the flag, being well aware of the connotations and that it is considered a hateful and hate-filled object by a significant minority in their states, then they're not honoring any heritage other than the one that's patently obvious. It's a salute to bigotry, Jim Crow and injustice and an "in-your-face" comment to blacks and other supporters of integration, voters' rights, etc...

I therefor find that the defenders of those few possible people who were raised in a cabbage patch to be disingenuous. The question isn't whether it's possible that a tiny minority might actually fit those circumstances, but whether the Confederate flag-wavers in the demonstrations do so. I sincerely doubt that a single one of them is unaware of the connotations and feel that they are thus saying "Up yours, *******!"
 
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Meadmaker said:
Well, context is everything, isn't it? If you run a Nazi flag up the flag pole in your yard, regardless of what you are thinking, the neighbors might look askance. Likewise with a rebel flag. Of course, some of the neighbors might approve, because they might be racists and think that you are racist, whether or not you are. So, use either flag with caution.*

But if your father or grandfather fought in the German army in WW II, I don't think you need to be ashamed, and if somewhere in your family memorabilia there were Nazi logos associated with his military service, I don't think you need to hide them away or burn them. Your reverence for your relatives need not be completely destroyed just because you disagree with the ideology of the army they fought under. I like the scene from Henry V:



Fighting for the confederacy, or the Nazis, or the USA in a just or unjust war, they were soldiers. They don't bear the burden of the sins of the politicians who led them to war.


I also don't put much stock in the magic power of symbols. They don't taint everything they touch. I used the example of the coasters because I read the article about banning them at Vicksburg. However, my hypothetical example of me using such coasters was based on a real example. Some friends of mine used to gather to play a WWII armor miniatures game. This friend had a collection of military hats. I never knew where he got them, but they included Russian, and American, and Nazi hats. We wore the hat of the team we were playing. My conscience is clear. I don't think I was supporting the holocaust.

_________________________
*I have a rainbow in my front yard right now. I wonder what the neighbors think.
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And of course all of them fly a Nazi flag on their flag poles regularly. Doesn't mean anything at all.
 
Foolmewunz said:
I really don't understand how this conversation is still going on.
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As with most conversations that seem to go on and on without end, it's because many of the participants are arguing against something that no one else is actually arguing. The participants never meet because they don't acknowledge, or perhaps they don't understand, the actual argument being made.
 
Well, I know what you have argued, I just don't understand what point you are trying to make.

Is it just that you are proud of your ancestors who fought a war to preserve slavery? If so, why?
 
Meadmaker said:
This is the attitude that I find sanctimonious.
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There are very few, if any, absolute moral positions in this world, but there are a few things that I will unerringly stand up against, including torture and slavery*. If you find that sanctimonious, it's because it actually is a higher moral position than the one you're taking in this thread.

I don't imagine you would want to take the position of arguing for slavery, why would you take the position of arguing for those willing to fight and kill for the preservation of slavery?



*eta: Also genocide.
 
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I've been pondering that a descendent of a battleground death could reasonably fly the symbol without being identified with the ideology, seeing if I could come up with a situation I would accept.

Uncle Racist died somehow during a lynching at a KKK event. In respect to Uncle Racist I can display his pointy white cap and robes to honor him? Wouldn't displaying the robes be likewise honoring the KKK?

Wouldn't using the Rebel flag (or Swastika) to honor my fallen relative also be honoring the flag and the ideology?

I've tried to think of other similar things, but I can't come up with any similar.

Nope, I can't see family as a reason for flying a symbol of oppression.
 
Upchurch said:
Well, I know what you have argued, I just don't understand what point you are trying to make.

Is it just that you are proud of your ancestors who fought a war to preserve slavery? If so, why?
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I am neither proud nor ashamed of my great great grandfather who fought for the Confederacy. He is an historical figure.
 
Upchurch said:
There are very few, if any, absolute moral positions in this world, but there are a few things that I will unerringly stand up against, including torture and slavery*. If you find that sanctimonious, it's because it actually is a higher moral position than the one you're taking in this thread.
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You are not taking a stand against slavery in this thread, you are taking a stand against coasters.

I find that sanctimonious.
 
Meadmaker said:
You are not taking a stand against slavery in this thread, you are taking a stand against coasters.
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Coasters made to honor those who fought to defend slavery.

Or have we moved the goalposts to where symbolism doesn't matter at all?


Meadmaker said:
I find that sanctimonious.
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Why? Do you find honoring those who defend the institution of slavery morally equal or superior to those who stand against it?
 
Earlier in the thread, people brought up the examples of Kentucky and Missouri. Thinking about them, I realize how interesting they are.

Both stayed in the Union. Yet, large factions of their citizens fought for the confederacy.

OK, so the claim is that soldiers fight for different reasons and their cause is not necessarily the same as the State for which they are fighting. Soldiers from Mississippi weren't fighting for slavery, they were fighting for the pride of Mississippi. Or whatever.

So how does this apply to Kentucky? What were the confederate soldiers of Kentucky fighting for? The pride of Kentucky? No, Kentucky was in the Union. Were they fighting for anything other than to get Kentucky in the group of slave-legal states?

They were traitors.

Yet there are something like 72 Confederate monuments in Kentucky, and only 2 monuments to the Union.

If you are the descendent of a Kentucky soldier who fought for the confederacy, would you be proud? Would you want to honor their memory?
 
thaiboxerken said:
If you aren't proud, what would be the point of flying the battle flag?
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I'm the sort of person who, back when the History Channel showed shows about history, my TV was pretty much locked on the channel.

My great great grandpa is a personal connection to an historic event. It doesn't mean that his existence makes me a better or worse person, but it just makes all those documentaries a little bit more personal.

As for a flag, specifically, I don't have one, but if I did, I would choose to display it in some way that didn't imply some sort of support for racism, much less segregation or slavery. Some sort of historical setting. I don't think having the Confederate player of a wargame using a battle flag coaster is likely to be mistaken for some sort of endorsement of white supremacy........at least not by people who should be taken seriously.


Being curious, I went to the web site of The Alamo to see if I could buy a Mexican flag. I didn't see one, but they did have a couple of "Six Flags of Texas" items, which includes both the Mexican and Confederate flags. It's that sort of setting where I might display a Confederate flag. Something obviously historical.

I mentioned the Mexican flag partly because they were the enemy in that war, and partly because the flag has an Aztec symbol on it. You want to see some seriously rotten folks? Aztecs. If there was ever a civilization worse than the Nazis, it would have to be them.
 
Upchurch said:
Why? Do you find honoring those who defend the institution of slavery morally equal or superior to those who stand against it?
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Neutral. They are all soldiers and they are all dead. For a long time people have told Southerners that the war is over and they should stop fighting it. It's good advice.


(Cardboard counter or miniature figure versions excepted.)


And, are you sure the Union was standing against it? If so, they weren't standing very tall.
 
Meanwhile, it sounds like the Senate's bill to remove the flag has passed their house, and will go to Gov. Haley's desk for her signature.

ETA: Link to news here.
 
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