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Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

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Yes it is, which is why you need to address my question, specifically.

Type 4.

How exactly, do you presume something that has not been asserted?

You can't possibly be serious.

And why can't we presume that my analysis is correct and you bear the burden of proving otherwise?

Type 2.

Because, and please read this slowly: your analysis has not been accepted as the consensus.

You have people here who assert that there is evidence that Oswald acted alone, who when challenged, refuse to present their phantom evidence

Another lie by you, since I presented you part of the evidence and reasoning just a few posts ago.

Running is very poor alternative.

You are in position to claim to have the moral high ground, here.

Are you still claiming burden of proof arguments are something we just made up for this forum to tilt the playing field?

Yes, I sure am.

Choke on these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence

Are you now claiming that people here went back in time and did all this ?
 
Asking questions is a wonderful way to deal with this stuff. Not only does it sometimes lead to good answers, but it exposes people who know that truthful answers will prove them wrong.


Oh you got that so right, Robert. You just don't understand why we're seeing your answers for what they really are.


Don't beach at folks who ask questions my friend. Beech at those who dodge 'em.

Speaking of dodging questions, when do you intend to address any of the evidentiary issues I raised about your unproven assertions?

Like with the witnesses?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10752298#post10752298

Like with your quoting out of context Nicholas Katzenbach?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10752888#post10752888

Like with the evidence indicating Oswald shot at JFK?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10752408#post10752408

Or do you intend to stick with your silly "We need to resolve this here other issue first" argument forever?

Hank
 
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I actually once debated a guy who claimed that the copies of the Warren Commission volumes of evidence had been "edited and updated" (as in the novel 1984) since he read it last, when I quoted the testimony from my copy back to him.

His evidence? He remembered it differently, so it must have been altered.

He couldn't be persuaded that the likelihood of *every copy* being altered (including those in private hands for over a decade, like my hard copy of those volumes - now in my possession for nearly four decades) was slim compared to him simply having a faulty memory.

So Robert's not at the extreme end of the conspiracy theorist scale (that's reserved for Dr. Fetzer, David Lifton, and John Armstrong), but he's approaching that with every additional post.

Hank
 
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Bump for Robert Harris.

You're ignoring all the points I made about Katzenbach entirely and simply asking a loaded question again.

Not exactly very persuasive argument.

But predictable. See the original post, which I reproduce below. Note particularly the postscript, which I've boldfaced below:

======= QUOTE =======


Here's the memo: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62268#relPageId=29

Your assertions are wrong on a number of levels.


First, the date of the memo you reference is 11/25/63. That's three days after the assassination, not within two days of the assassination.


Second, you're just cribbing this argument from numerous conspiracy books without researching it yourself. You're merely treating us to your interpretation of the memo, or rather, the interpretation you gleaned from a conspiracy book somewhere. We know that because conspiracy books, like you, don't quote the statement in context, by failing to quote what came immediately before the statement you do quote.


Third, here's the first paragraph of the memo, which, as I said, you fail to quote, and which puts what you claim into better context:

It is important that all of the facts surrounding President Kennedy's Assassination be made public in a way that will satisfy people in the United States and abroad that all the facts have been told and that a statement to this effect be made now.

What part of "all the facts surrounding President Kennedy's assassination be made public" confused you into thinking Katzenbach was advocating a cover-up?


Fourth, Katzenbach was queried extensively before a congressional committee in 1979 and he testified under oath to exactly what he meant.

His testimony can be found here: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol3/html/HSCA_Vol3_0323b.htm

On what planet does fairness entail ignoring explanations by the people you're accusing of being accessories after the fact and participating in a cover-up?

Why do you not confront the testimony of Katzenbach and explain how your interpretation of his memo should be substituted for his statements about what the memo intended to convey? Why should your interpretation of his memo prevail over his interpretation of his memo? Who should know better what he intended to convey? You, or the person who wrote the memo?


Fifth, you're doing it again. You're merely treating us to your interpretation of the memo and pretending it's something greater than it is. It's not. It's simply your own unsupported interpretation of the memo. It's not evidence.

Hank

PS: Now go ahead and snip the bulk of this, select one sentence out of context, and pretend it says something it doesn't. You've got a history of doing that.
======= UNQUOTE =======

You simply committed a different logical fallacy - changing the subject. I thought you wanted to discuss the assassination, Robert. You brought up Katzenbach, and I pointed out five reasons you're wrong. Do you have any rebuttal to that?

Hank
 
This article is particularly interesting due to Kohn's discovery that the very next day after HSCA investigators made phone calls to try to locate Charles Nicolletti, he was the victim of a gangland style murder.

Similar fates befell Johnny Roselli who was murdered shortly after telling the Washington Post that the mob ordered Jack Ruby to kill Oswald, and to Sam Giancana, just five days before he was scheduled to appear before the Church Committee which was investigating mob connections to the CIA.

I was going to point out that what you're invoking is the logical fallacy known as the Post Hoc fallacy, but you'll probably deny that's a real logical fallacy as you did for shifting the burden of proof.

Why is it so many of your arguments invoke logical fallacies, Robert?

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/post-hoc.html
 
I was going to point out that what you're invoking is the logical fallacy known as the Post Hoc fallacy, but you'll probably deny that's a real logical fallacy as you did for shifting the burden of proof.

Why is it so many of your arguments invoke logical fallacies, Robert?

They don't. You just pretend they do when you have no plausible answer to my arguments.

This fallacy is about assuming that the cause of an event is a previous event which has no logical connection. But the connection here is rock solid and fully consistent with the known facts and evidence.

If a prosecutor proves that a gun was purchased two hours before it was used in a murder, does its owner get to shout, "Ad hoc fallacy"? I suppose he can, but the judge isn't going to be impressed.

In the context of a debate, the connection should be debated, not blown off by a misinterpretation of the ad hoc fallacy.

This is typical of the phony "fallacy" accusations which are thrown around in this place, which are almost always founded on unproven assumptions - accusing a person of "begging the question" on the unproven assumption that he has not established his presumption, is a classic example.

And "burden of proof" is irrelevant when it comes to debatable issues. Each side bears the responsibility of presenting their own arguments. Pretending that only your adversary is required to present evidence, is just a tactic and a rather slimy one at that.

And your "loaded question fallacy" is even more ridiculous. You concede absolutely nothing by acknowledging that I have merely presented evidence, since you have every right to declare that this evidence does not prove my claims or that I have misinterpreted it.

The visible actions of the limo passengers, are indisputably, evidence - but evidence of what? That remains to be debated.

The same is true of Alvarez's analysis and the consensus of the witnesses.
My challenge only asks you to present a harmless, honest answer.
 
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Okay...

Bob. I think it might in your interest to consider something about how you are making your argument. Instead of arguing about how stubborn everybody is, and why they should be listening to your argument the way you want to make it, step back a second:

People here are patiently explaining to you what it would take to convince them. They are explaining when you are misrepresenting their views as a strawman, they are pointing out when your arguments are flawed, or a fallacy, and they are trying to get you to lift the burden of proof.

They are doing all of this because they are not your enemy, or your opponent. They are people who want to understand what it is you believe, and to measure it up to a benchmark. They are trying to tell you the benchmark.

So take a deep breath.
Instead of complaining that people are wrong and wont admit it, read their actual response, that personal testimony is not the most reliable evidence and differentials are expected. Stop demanding Hank lives up to the strawman you present and instead answer his reasonable points. Because then he might be able to see your point of view.

People are trying to give you the best chance of convincing them, and you seem to be determined to have a fight instead of a discussion. If you actually want to discuss the case, if you actually want to convince people you are right, then maybe understanding what would convince them is a good start.
 
This fallacy is about assuming that the cause of an event is a previous event which has no logical connection.

There's a similar fallacy in assuming that it does.

Who cares about such assumptions ? The important thing is this: you have shown part of a video where you claim to see a set of reactions. You need to do more than claim; and you also need to rule out other causes for said reactions. So far you have not done that.
 
I like the use of eyewitness testimony to back up his case...except when it disagrees with his preconceived notions. Using cherry picked quotes of the most unreliable of evidences is classy.
The people there that day all have their own recollections and many of them are different. Nellie C. was a bit busy to recall every single detail. Big deal.

I do have one question. What happened to those supposed shots from the Dal-Tex Bldg.? The subsonic bullets were supposedly pointed toward JFK from above him. Where did they go? Why was no one injured in the throngs of people gathered across from the imagined sniper? Would no one notice bullets hitting the pavement?
 
Using quotes of evidences is classy.

I agree. ;)


NOTE: Above quote altered by me. Don't give me a yellow card !

The people there that day all have their own recollections and many of them are different.

Well, they must all be true, somehow !

I do have one question. What happened to those supposed shots from the Dal-Tex Bldg.? The subsonic bullets were supposedly pointed toward JFK from above him. Where did they go? Why was no one injured in the throngs of people gathered across from the imagined sniper? Would no one notice bullets hitting the pavement?

They were _all_ snipers.
 
I agree. ;)


NOTE: Above quote altered by me. Don't give me a yellow card !

Community Chest? How about an orange card instead?

Well, they must all be true, somehow !



They were _all_ snipers.

You may be right. I just went frame by frame of the Z film. I zoomed in 1000% on every person there and noticed strange lumps on all of them. My theory is everyone had a pellet gun and shot JFK in the head simultaneously. Obviously there are a couple of missing frames...
 
They don't. You just pretend they do when you have no plausible answer to my arguments.

And the evidence for that is ... nowhere to be found. Unpresented by you.


This fallacy is about assuming that the cause of an event is a previous event which has no logical connection. But the connection here is rock solid and fully consistent with the known facts and evidence.

Your ad hoc definition of the post hoc fallacy isn't convincing. What part of the link here says you get to assume the connection and evidence, Robert?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc


If a prosecutor proves that a gun was purchased two hours before it was used in a murder, does its owner get to shout, "Ad hoc fallacy"? I suppose he can, but the judge isn't going to be impressed.

Yes, especially since there's no such thing as an "ad hoc" fallacy. If you're assuming the gun was used in the murder, yes, that's the *post hoc* fallacy. Just because Bob moved into the apartment before the furnace started having problems doesn't mean the furnace's problems are caused by Bob moving into the apartment. There is a connection there, but it's still a post hoc fallacy. Ditto with your claims. So much of your argument is simply based on assumptions and logical fallacies, it's ridiculous.

Let's rewrite your argument, but substitute "went to the doctor" as the preceding event instead.

This article is particularly interesting due to Kohn's discovery that the very next day after HSCA investigators made phone calls to try to locate Charles Nicolletti, Charles Nicolletti went to the doctor, he was the victim of a gangland style murder.

Similar fates befell Johnny Roselli who was murdered shortly after telling the Washington Post that the mob ordered Jack Ruby to kill Oswald, going to the doctor, and to Sam Giancana, just five days before he was scheduled to appear before the Church Committee which was investigating mob connections to the CIA he was scheduled to go to the doctor.


The connection and the evidence is still assumed, in my version and yours.

We'll await the evidence of the connection. If you have any. Of course, you don't, so you merely protest the *post hoc* fallacy is applied incorrectly. It's not.


In the context of a debate, the connection should be debated, not blown off by a misinterpretation of the ad hoc fallacy.

You're not presenting any evidence to establish the connection. You're just asserting the connection is real ("the connection here is rock solid"). Until you present the evidence establishing the connection is real, and not simply assumed, you're utilizing the Post Hoc fallacy to get the mileage you want out of the charge.


This is typical of the phony "fallacy" accusations which are thrown around in this place, which are almost always founded on unproven assumptions - accusing a person of "begging the question" on the unproven assumption that he has not established his presumption, is a classic example.

Begging the question is a real thing, Bob, and you do it a lot. I pointed out numerous examples in the past as you utilized them.


And "burden of proof" is irrelevant when it comes to debatable issues. Each side bears the responsibility of presenting their own arguments. Pretending that only your adversary is required to present evidence, is just a tactic and a rather slimy one at that.

Well, let's look at the Katzenbach memo claims, shall we? You presented your interpretation of the second paragraph of the memo which you pulled from some conspiracy book someplace. I pointed out you got the date of the memo wrong, and you also were quoting the memo out of context, giving you the first paragraph to restore some of the context. I also pointed out that Katzenbach's testimony about the memo is on the record, but you failed to mention it or rebut it in any fashion. I pointed out that Katzenbach's view on the intent of the memo is more valuable than your interpretation, as he's the letter writer and you're not. I also pointed out that your argument consists entirely of your telling us what you think the memo intent was. I also pointed out the first paragraph explains more fully Katzenbach's intent, which is why you (and conspiracy books) fail to mention it.

You have yet to address it, or present any evidence that supports your interpretation of the out-of-context part of the memo you quoted.

Where's your evidence, Bob?

Now, discussing the evidence back-and-forth didn't work there, because you simply failed to address those issues.

I likewise tried to discuss the witnesses you cited, and you ignored it.
I likewise tried to discuss the evidence for Jim Braden being part of a conspiracy, and for shots being fired from the Dal-Tex building, and you pretty much ignored the request for any evidence there too.
I likewise tried to discuss your claim that there wasn't much evidence indicating Oswald fired any shots, and you snipped all my points there, then ignored the reposts.

Your request for us to "let's discuss the evidence" isn't working when you're the one failing to address the evidence.

As someone here once noted, "Pretending that only your adversary is required to present evidence, is just a tactic and a rather slimy one at that."


And your "loaded question fallacy" is even more ridiculous. You concede absolutely nothing by acknowledging that I have merely presented evidence, since you have every right to declare that this evidence does not prove my claims or that I have misinterpreted it.

As I noted, you had previously alleged I denied the evidence you presented, with you invoking the logical fallacy of a strawman argument. I challenged you to support your claim by quoting me. At that point you switched from claiming I had said to asking if I would say it, with you invoking the logical fallacy of a loaded question.


The visible actions of the limo passengers, are indisputably, evidence - but evidence of what? That remains to be debated.

It has been. You simply deflected or ignored any points made by others that you're assuming what you need to prove, that your assumptions aren't evidence, and that the science doesn't enable you to draw the conclusions you are making. Do you remember all that? What do you mean that the evidence remains to be debated? It has been debated. You simply kept asserting you were right, and your opponents were wrong.


The same is true of Alvarez's analysis and the consensus of the witnesses.

No, we've looked at the witness statements you quoted, and found they are susceptible of other interpretations different from the one you're trying to foist on the witness statements. Your rebuttal has been missing.

You've also told us your analysis is better than Alvarez's analysis, and Alvarez made mistakes. So your fall-back position can't be "Alvarez is an expert at this", as you yourself claim his analysis included errors that you are fixing.


My challenge only asks you to present a harmless, honest answer.

No, Bob. That's the nature of a loaded question. A common example is "Do you still beat your wife?" and asking for a simple yes or no answer, which is essentially what you're doing. Why don't you simply go back to my first posts on the subject and try rebutting the points I did make, instead of constantly trying to wedge logical fallacies into the discussion here?

Hank
 
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Perhaps that "I know you are but what am I" routine worked for you in elementary school, but here it just makes you seem silly and petty.

...not that we didn't already get that impression. If you were interested in the truth at all you wouldn't have turned this thread into a total trainwreck just to make yourself feel important.

What do you think caused these reactions, my friend?

ducking3.gif
 
What do you think caused these reactions, my friend?

Asked and answered here:

It's quite clear from the full-speed video that it's just momentum from the limo's acceleration. Gee, it took me all of 10 seconds to come up with that.

...and also elsewhere. Took me less than a minute to find it again.

Do you ever read other people's replies ?
 
Might as well put something in this box.

This is Alvarez's chart, depicting his analysis of the slowdown.

slowdown.jpg
 
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Asked and answered here:

It's quite clear from the full-speed video that it's just momentum from the limo's acceleration. Gee, it took me all of 10 seconds to come up with that.

Well, I had sort of hoped that you had gotten up to speed on this. Alvarez did a frame-by-frame analysis of those frames and concluded that Greer didn't lift his foot from the gas until about 294 and that the slowdown began at about 300.

In this animation, you can see that by 293, there was no slowdown at all. The reactions all began at 290-292.

part1.gif


but in this one, the slowdown can be easily seen, beginning at about 300, as Alvarez said

part2.gif
 
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Well, I had sort of hoped that you had gotten up to speed on this. Alvarez did a frame-by-frame analysis of those frames and concluded that Greer didn't lift his foot from the gas until about 294 and that the slowdown began at about 300.

1: One thing is for sure: it wasn't a startle reaction.
2: Are you ever going to show us a real-time video ?
 
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