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Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

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And if you had read my article on CE399, you would know that I presented very solid physical evidence that CE399 was not the same bullet that Daryl Tomlinson recovered. Both Secret Service agent Richard Johnsen and FBI Elmer Todd, stated that they marked the bullet that Tomlinson found, but when John Hunt went to the N.A. and examined four quarter-turn images of CE399, he found only the initials of FBI lab personnel. Neither Johnsen's or Todd's were anywhere to be found.

This was covered extensively with another poster just before you arrived. Why don't you just search the thread for "John Hurt" and read forward from there and pick up your argument where the prior conspiracy theorist bailed out?




Of course, the actual bullet that wounded Connally and probably JFK, fell from Connally's stretcher and was recovered by a nurse, just before he went into surgery. That fact was confirmed by Connally himself, DA Henry Wade and Bobby Nolan, the officer who was guarding Connally's room at the time.

You cited hearsay, not evidence and a decades-after-the-fact recollection. I pointed that out previously. Do you have any evidence, Robert? And any statements from, oh, the weekend of the crime?

Hank
 

I am not going to answer your posts until we resolve this issue. You need to take responsibility for your assertions, and especially your accusations.

You previously alleged that the articles and presentations I linked here, did not contain valid evidence.

When I asked you to support that accusation, you said you didn't have to and that you bore no obligation to support your own assertions.

I would like you to explain why you think that you have no responsibility to support your claims, and if you cannot do that, admit it.

Please elaborate.
 
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This was c

You need to stop evading me Hank. I only ask that you retract your claim that my articles and presentations lack valid evidence. That doesn't mean you have to agree with my conclusions or my interpretations of that evidence.

And you should also acknowledge that you bear the responsibility of supporting your own assertions.
 
You previously alleged that the articles and presentations I linked here, did not contain valid evidence.

When I asked you to support that accusation, you said you didn't have to and that you bore no obligation to support your own assertions.

I would like you to explain why you think that you have no responsibility to support your claims, and if you cannot do that, admit it.

Please elaborate.

Repeating strawman arguments won't cut it here, Bob.
And neither does a red herring (changing the subject).
You snipped all my response except for the first sentence, thereby illustrating exactly what you're doing:

Here's what you're ignoring while you're repeating all those logical fallacies.

Are you saying that I posted "trashtalk" in my discussion with Hank? If so, this is the entirety of what you cited me saying to him.

Perhaps you would like to highlight the part that you consider trashtalk?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves Hank. You previously alleged that the articles and presentations I linked here, did not contain valid evidence.

When I asked you to support that accusation, you said you didn't have to and that you bore no obligation to support your own assertions.

I would like you to explain why you think that you have no responsibility to support your claims.

Please elaborate.

Strawman argument, Bob.

Everyone here knows it.

You claimed that you delete trash talk and ad hominems.

Yes, I have the terrible habit of deleting ad hominm crap and trashtalk.

You deleted a ton of stuff from my post. Show us the trash talk and ad hominems in the part you deleted. There was plenty of points you didn't address, and plenty of evidence referenced that I believe you're familiar with. None of it was trash talk nor ad hominems.

But you deleted it. So we know your excuse for deleting stuff is incomplete. Why don't you try offering a better, more complete excuse for why you delete stuff from your response? You know, like you didn't have a good rebuttal to the points made so you choose to simply ignore the points away?

So, since you're advocating discussing the JFK assassination so much (and not you), I find it curious that you snipped all my references to the JFK assassination evidence and only quoted one sentence. Maybe you should take a swing at my points and the evidence I referenced now.

Here's one such post filled with plenty of JFK evidence references:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10752408#post10752408

Hank
 
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I don't think so. Do you deny saying what I claimed you said?



Sometimes I do.



I cannot delete anything from your post. I deleted it from mine, and I have told you I would address it after we resolve this issue.



I didn't say it was trashtalk and ad hominen. I said I would address it after we resolve this issue about you accusing me of posting material that was devoid of evidence.

We need to talk about that and you need to explain why you claimed I have presented no evidence. I will be happy to present you with a laundry list of my evidence, if you wish to continue with that assertion.

Hilarious, Bob. You just keep on trying to put words in my mouth and I'll just keep telling you it's a strawman argument. Why don't you quote me saying what you're claming I said?

And we see you're just avoiding the points I made entirely. Here's the post again, so you can utilize more strawman arguments in your attempted rebuttal.

Are you saying that I posted "trashtalk" in my discussion with Hank? If so, this is the entirety of what you cited me saying to him.

Perhaps you would like to highlight the part that you consider trashtalk?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves Hank. You previously alleged that the articles and presentations I linked here, did not contain valid evidence.

When I asked you to support that accusation, you said you didn't have to and that you bore no obligation to support your own assertions.

I would like you to explain why you think that you have no responsibility to support your claims.

Please elaborate.

Strawman argument, Bob.

Everyone here knows it.

You claimed that you delete trash talk and ad hominems.

Yes, I have the terrible habit of deleting ad hominm crap and trashtalk.

You deleted a ton of stuff from my post. Show us the trash talk and ad hominems in the part you deleted. There was plenty of points you didn't address, and plenty of evidence referenced that I believe you're familiar with. None of it was trash talk nor ad hominems.

But you deleted it. So we know your excuse for deleting stuff is incomplete. Why don't you try offering a better, more complete excuse for why you delete stuff from your response? You know, like you didn't have a good rebuttal to the points made so you choose to simply ignore the points away?

So, since you're advocating discussing the JFK assassination so much (and not you), I find it curious that you snipped all my references to the JFK assassination evidence and only quoted one sentence. Maybe you should take a swing at my points and the evidence I referenced now.

Hank
 
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And why can't we presume that my analysis is correct and you bear the burden of proving otherwise?

Attempt to switch the burden of proof.

Have you heard of a book called "The Demon Haunted World"? Written by someone you haven't heard of - Carl Sagan. I can recommend it.
 
At some point it becomes obvious he's just spamming the forum

At some point it becomes obvious that you're evading your responsibility to support your own assertions and accusations.

You were flatly, demonstrably wrong in claiming that my articles and presentations contained no evidence.

You can either argue that you are correct or admit that you are wrong. Running is very poor alternative.
 
Let's not get ahead of ourselves Hank. You previously alleged that the articles and presentations I linked here, did not contain valid evidence.

When I asked you to support that accusation, you said you didn't have to and that you bore no obligation to support your own assertions.

I would like you to explain why you think that you have no responsibility to support your claims.

Please elaborate.




I will be happy to address the rest of your post, after we resolve this. Your accusation that my articles and presentations contain no valid evidence is not just insulting, it is also a very lame attempt to evade a lot of genuine evidence on the grounds that I am "begging the question", which would only be true if I had failed to make a solid case, which as we both know, has never been refuted.

So, you need to justify that rather insulting claim or admit that you are wrong.



It's already been addressed, Robert. You ignored the rebuttal and just re-stated your argument. How many times do I need to address it?

Here's the link.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10752408#post10752408

You ignored the bulk of the preceding argument (quoting one sentence) and you ignore the rebuttal to the argument above. You're not exactly making great headway there.



Hank
 
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Nonsense. What difference does it make whether I see what you claim to see,

I didn't ask you to "see what I see". I'm only asking what you see.

if what you claim to see could break the case wide open? Present that claim so it can be discussed here.

I already have. Why won't you answer the questions?

It wouldn't do to have somebody else tell me what they see there, if I am so myopic that I can't see it myself (got my glasses on, though), and if you want my opinion. But why should the opinion of li'l ol' me matter, if it's so obvious?

Sandy, you could have answered a 100 questions by now, in the time you've wasted making excuses.

The questions are extremely simple and easy to answer. Answer those three questions and I'll answer a dozen of yours.

Is that fair?
 
The LN theory was not the invention of the perps. It was the product of LBJ, who did not want to face a crisis which might have led to WWIII, since Russia had sworn to defend Cuba. Consider this proclamation from Katzenbach, and the justice department, uttered within about 2 days after the assassination,

"The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial."

...There was a massive coverup, but it may have been benign, at least as far as LBJ knew.

Here's the memo: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62268#relPageId=29

Your assertions are wrong on a number of levels.


First, the date of the memo you reference is 11/25/63. That's three days after the assassination, not within two days of the assassination.


Second, you're just cribbing this argument from numerous conspiracy books without researching it yourself. You're merely treating us to your interpretation of the memo, or rather, the interpretation you gleaned from a conspiracy book somewhere. We know that because conspiracy books, like you, don't quote the statement in context, by failing to quote what came immediately before the statement you do quote.


Third, here's the first paragraph of the memo, which, as I said, you fail to quote, and which puts what you claim into better context:

It is important that all of the facts surrounding President Kennedy's Assassination be made public in a way that will satisfy people in the United States and abroad that all the facts have been told and that a statement to this effect be made now.

What part of "all the facts surrounding President Kennedy's assassination be made public" confused you into thinking Katzenbach was advocating a cover-up?


Fourth, Katzenbach was queried extensively before a congressional committee in 1979 and he testified under oath to exactly what he meant.

His testimony can be found here: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol3/html/HSCA_Vol3_0323b.htm

On what planet does fairness entail ignoring explanations by the people you're accusing of being accessories after the fact and participating in a cover-up?

Why do you not confront the testimony of Katzenbach and explain how your interpretation of his memo should be substituted for his statements about what the memo intended to convey? Why should your interpretation of his memo prevail over his interpretation of his memo? Who should know better what he intended to convey? You, or the person who wrote the memo?


Fifth, you're doing it again. You're merely treating us to your interpretation of the memo and pretending it's something greater than it is. It's not. It's simply your own unsupported interpretation of the memo. It's not evidence.

Hank

PS: Now go ahead and snip the bulk of this, select one sentence out of context, and pretend it says something it doesn't. You've got a history of doing that.
 
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Let's simplify all of this and cut to the chase.

Is it your opinion that my articles and presentations are devoid of valid evidence?

A single syllable reply will do nicely.

The logical fallacy known as the Loaded Question.

According to your prior posts, I already expressed that opinion, which I then told you was a strawman argument. If I've already expressed that opinion, and if your claim is correct, you should be able to provide a link to it, and quote the claim I made, if it's true I actually made it?

Why would I need to answer any such question again?

Why don't you go back, starting with my first responses to you, and actually debate the points I made?

Hank
 
Is the question too difficult for you Hank? I simplified it as much as I could.


Is it your opinion that my articles and presentations are devoid of valid evidence?

A single syllable reply will do nicely.

You're ignoring all the points I made about Katzenbach entirely and simply asking a loaded question again.

Not exactly very persuasive argument.

But predictable. See the original post, which I reproduce below. Note particularly the postscript, which I've boldfaced below:

======= QUOTE =======
The LN theory was not the invention of the perps. It was the product of LBJ, who did not want to face a crisis which might have led to WWIII, since Russia had sworn to defend Cuba. Consider this proclamation from Katzenbach, and the justice department, uttered within about 2 days after the assassination,

"The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial."

...There was a massive coverup, but it may have been benign, at least as far as LBJ knew.

Here's the memo: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62268#relPageId=29

Your assertions are wrong on a number of levels.


First, the date of the memo you reference is 11/25/63. That's three days after the assassination, not within two days of the assassination.


Second, you're just cribbing this argument from numerous conspiracy books without researching it yourself. You're merely treating us to your interpretation of the memo, or rather, the interpretation you gleaned from a conspiracy book somewhere. We know that because conspiracy books, like you, don't quote the statement in context, by failing to quote what came immediately before the statement you do quote.


Third, here's the first paragraph of the memo, which, as I said, you fail to quote, and which puts what you claim into better context:

It is important that all of the facts surrounding President Kennedy's Assassination be made public in a way that will satisfy people in the United States and abroad that all the facts have been told and that a statement to this effect be made now.

What part of "all the facts surrounding President Kennedy's assassination be made public" confused you into thinking Katzenbach was advocating a cover-up?


Fourth, Katzenbach was queried extensively before a congressional committee in 1979 and he testified under oath to exactly what he meant.

His testimony can be found here: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol3/html/HSCA_Vol3_0323b.htm

On what planet does fairness entail ignoring explanations by the people you're accusing of being accessories after the fact and participating in a cover-up?

Why do you not confront the testimony of Katzenbach and explain how your interpretation of his memo should be substituted for his statements about what the memo intended to convey? Why should your interpretation of his memo prevail over his interpretation of his memo? Who should know better what he intended to convey? You, or the person who wrote the memo?


Fifth, you're doing it again. You're merely treating us to your interpretation of the memo and pretending it's something greater than it is. It's not. It's simply your own unsupported interpretation of the memo. It's not evidence.

Hank

PS: Now go ahead and snip the bulk of this, select one sentence out of context, and pretend it says something it doesn't. You've got a history of doing that.
======= UNQUOTE =======

You simply committed a different logical fallacy - changing the subject. I thought you wanted to discuss the assassination, Robert. You brought up Katzenbach, and I pointed out five reasons you're wrong. Do you have any rebuttal to that?

Hank
 
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This 1977 article by Howard Kohn, the highly respected, Pulitzer prize winning editor of Rolling Stone magazine adds further insight into the mob's role in the JFK assassination. Kohn was following the HSCA hearing closely and had connections to some of the investigators.

This article is particularly interesting due to Kohn's discovery that the very next day after HSCA investigators made phone calls to try to locate Charles Nicolletti, he was the victim of a gangland style murder.

Similar fates befell Johnny Roselli who was murdered shortly after telling the Washington Post that the mob ordered Jack Ruby to kill Oswald, and to Sam Giancana, just five days before he was scheduled to appear before the Church Committee which was investigating mob connections to the CIA.

http://jfkhistory.com/mobsters/Nicoletti.html
 
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One way to find out. It's impossible to argue with someone who demands questions be resolved, but will never admit to any resolution unless it's in his favor (I have a step-daughter like this, so I'm talking from experience with a child- "I asked you first!"). Let him crow his empty victory; the lurkers he seemed so concerned with a few pages ago can see what's happening here.

Asking questions is a wonderful way to deal with this stuff.

Not only does it sometimes lead to good answers, but it exposes people who know that truthful answers will prove them wrong.

Don't beach at folks who ask questions my friend. Beech at those who dodge 'em.
 
I didn't ask you to "see what I see". I'm only asking what you see.

Whom are you trying to kid? I know you don't care what I see.
In fact, you said that I could have a friend with better eyes (hey, my specs are state of the art, I'll have you know) tell me what's there.
Clearly implying that you think that what you see there is obvious to anyone… anyone, that is, who isn't a dishonest, craven tool of the cover-up.

So why don't you just tell the group what you see there (and I know I've heard it before, but I swear I can't remember) and how you think it cinches the case for conspiracy?

I'm not saying anyone will care, at this point.
 
Once would probably be enough if you are going to post a retraction.

A retraction for something I never said and that I've labelled a strawman argument multiple times?
Yes, I retract all those things I never said in this forum. Happy?



I don't see you either supporting your accusation or denying it. Are you talking about this??

Are you serious? You quote one sentence and attempt to rebut that, ignoring everything else in the lengthy post, including all the evidence I referenced, and asked you to provide the counter evidence that puts your arguments on an equal footing? Below is the original exchange that you quoted one sentence from. I put in red the ONLY point you tried to argue with. The remainder you ignored.

If so, please show me where you dealt with that false accusation.

What false accusation? You mean this post, where I showed how you quoted only one sentence (which I highlighted in red) and how you ignored the rest of my lengthy post? That "false accusation"?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10752408&highlight=damage#post10752408



I already told you that I would address your other arguments after we resolve this. What is the holdup?

Everyone here can see exactly what's holding this up, Bob. And why you're now putting conditions on what questions about your assertions you'll respond to. You're stuck. So you retreat into barricade mode, claiming I need to confess to something I never did (all that's missing is the waterboarding) before you'll address any other issues.

Hank
 
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