Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Grinder]

RW didn't quite get the car on the 31st but yes I've wondered a lot about Koko. Didn't remember him claiming to talk to the tow truck driver. Wonder if he knew that before it became public.

Recently reading Rudi's Guede's interview I was reminded that he worked at some agricultural place that I think Koko also worked at.

I pretty sure they knew each other. It's a connection for Guede to Koko and vice versa. Why this hasn't been a bigger focus always was a mystery to me.

Hey Bill maybe its too obvious.

 

[Vixen]

Such nonsense. Each trial court's premise is that both Amanda and Raffaele are each other's alibis. On appeal, Raffaele is making a nuanced argument responding to the prosecution's case against him. The statement he signed in the questura you refer to was obviously written up for him. It wasn't one he ever made. The police didn't believe it otherwise he would not have been arrested. You don't believe it either. What relevance does it have?

He's an educated Italian, is he not? He signed it, did he not?

He is clearly able to say, "boo" to a goose, as he told police in no uncertain terms to wait until he finished his meal before deigning to go to the questura.

Is he now claiming police coerced him to sign? He didn't complain at the time, nor put forward his defence in the witness stand.

 

[RWVBWL]

RW didn't quite get the car on the 31st but yes I've wondered a lot about Koko. Didn't remember him claiming to talk to the tow truck driver. Wonder if he knew that before it became public.

Recently reading Rudi's Guede's interview I was reminded that he worked at some agricultural place that I think Koko also worked at.

I pretty sure they knew each other. It's a connection for Guede to Koko and vice versa. Why this hasn't been a bigger focus always was a mystery to me.

Hey Bill maybe its too obvious.

Greetings Grinder,
I do seem to recall that Koko knew of this before it was made public.
But I could be wrong, as I've been before...

I've got this info in my folders:
dated Oct. 17, 2008;
Mystery car was parked outside Meredith Kercher murder house, claims witness

Link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...dith-Kercher-murder-house-claims-witness.html


The fresh evidence came to light as Rudy Guede, 21, one of three people accused of killing Miss Kercher in the hill town of Perugia last year, returns to court where he is on trial for murder.

The witness, a mechanic called Gianfranco Lombardi, had been called out to recover a broken down vehicle near the cottage in which the Leeds University student was found stabbed to death on the night of November 1.


While loading the vehicle onto his truck, Lombardi noticed a "dark car" parked in the sloping driveway which leads down to the cottage, on Perugia's Via della Pergola, a winding lane with sweeping views of the Umbrian countryside.

Raffaele Sollecito, an Italian IT graduate who along with Guede and American student Amanda Knox is accused of murdering Miss Kercher, owned a black car at the time of the murder.

But a prosecution witness, an Albanian immigrant named Hekuran Kokomani, who says he saw the three accused outside the cottage on the night of the murder, also drove a dark coloured car.

The mechanic, whose name has not been released, told police that the gate across the driveway was ajar.

"I was called out and got to the place around 11 o'clock. I helped the owners of the broken down car and as I was loading it onto my tow truck I noticed a car parked on the drive way," the mechanic told detectives.

"It was dark in colour. I'm not sure of the model but it was switched off. I didn't notice anyone inside. It took me eight to 10 minutes to load up but I didn't see anyone coming or going."

* * *

Weird, these old newspaper reports,
for they mention the tow truck drivers name, then a few paragraphs later, state that his name has not been released.

And yet ol' Vixen believes most everything form them old newspaper reports, hahaha...

Here is an Italian newspaper report, I think,
about Hekuran Kokomani that I've kept for some reason,
maybe it's worth tryin' to get a translation from it, it's kinda long in story:
http://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it/cronaca/articoli/articolo427151.shtml

 

[Vixen]

RW didn't quite get the car on the 31st but yes I've wondered a lot about Koko. Didn't remember him claiming to talk to the tow truck driver. Wonder if he knew that before it became public.

Recently reading Rudi's Guede's interview I was reminded that he worked at some agricultural place that I think Koko also worked at.

I pretty sure they knew each other. It's a connection for Guede to Koko and vice versa. Why this hasn't been a bigger focus always was a mystery to me.

Hey Bill maybe its too obvious.

I believe it was on a farm belonging to the Caporellis (_? sp).

 

[Kauffer]

Kate Mansey is not a "police thug" she was a journalist for UK tabloid THE DAILY MIRROR.

Mansey and Raffaele were both fluent - but in different languages. The idea that these two could ever have a conversation in November 2007 that might produce a reliable report is a fantasy.

Later, Mansey would write, following a conversation she said she had with a police source, that blood from the crime scene had been found on Raffaele's underwear. Doh!

 

[Vixen]

Mansey and Raffaele were both fluent - but in different languages. The idea that these two could ever have a conversation in November 2007 that might produce a reliable report is a fantasy.

Later, Mansey would write, following a conversation she said she had with a police source, that blood from the crime scene had been found on Raffaele's underwear. Doh!

There was indeed Amanda's blood found on his underwear. So factually correct.

 

[Grinder]

RW

On October 29, a colleague in the law office had called the lawyer Paolo Brocchi to tell him that in the corridor was a person who said that he had been found with some goods in Milan, goods that had been declared stolen by the lawyer Brocchi, but which he claimed to have purchased legitimately in Milan.

I was checking on the alarm business over at Massei and found the above.

Del Prato was on the 27th and IIRC he was sent back to Perugia (put on a train) and as you can see was in Perugia on the 29th. When was he supposed to have been caught with the Africans and wasn't iot supposed to be Milan? He was also in Perugia the 31st for sure, out with the Spanish students.

ETA - From ABC - Palazzoli discovered they had been broken into Sunday, Oct. 14, 2007, and police later determined that the thief or thieves had entered by climbing up to the window, which is above a terrace, about 12 feet high. Police determined a rock was used with some strength to break through the double glass, and the alarm system was disabled. A computer and a printer were missing.

I recall one of the lawyers saying it was new and that he wouldn't have known how to disable it. Also one would think the printer wouldn't be a portable, though possible, but it raises the question how a lone thief would carry the loot down from the balcony. I'm sure someone will have a tale from youth of jumping down with a large TV but it makes me think accomplice.

 

[Kauffer]

He's an educated Italian, is he not? He signed it, did he not?

He is clearly able to say, "boo" to a goose, as he told police in no uncertain terms to wait until he finished his meal before deigning to go to the questura.

Is he now claiming police coerced him to sign? He didn't complain at the time, nor put forward his defence in the witness stand.

Of course he was coerced - as his subsequent accounts make clear. Even educated people make coerced statements to police. But he didn't need to defend the point in court because the courts accepted that he and Amanda provided mutual alibis. Why do you think they all accepted that position?

The problem you have is explaining the relevance of the statement to your overall argument. One of the following options must be correct:

1) The statement is true - Raffaele stayed in while Amanda went out. Therefore Raffaele is innocent while Amanda had the opportunity to commit murder.
2) The statement is false - Raffaele and Amanda both stayed in. Therefore both Amanda and Raffaele are innocent.
3) The statement is false - Amanda stayed in while Raffaele went out. Therefore Amanda is innocent while Raffaele had the opportunity to commit murder.
3) The statement is false - Raffaele and Amanda both went out. Therefore both Raffaele and Amanda had an opportunity to commit murder

Which option do you believe? Having selected your chosen option and in the light of it, explain what the relevance of the statement is, according to you, to the case.

 

[Kauffer]

There was indeed Amanda's blood found on his underwear. So factually correct.

What are you talking about?

Sunday Mirror - November 11th 2007, Mansey said:

"Traces of Meredith's blood was found on Sollecito's underwear"

She also said a lot of other rubbish too.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/FLATM...D+MOP;+EXCLUSIVE+Meredith+cops...-a0171084438

 

[RWVBWL]

,snip.
Del Prato was on the 27th and IIRC he was sent back to Perugia (put on a train) and as you can see was in Perugia on the 29th. When was he supposed to have been caught with the Africans and wasn't it supposed to be Milan? He was also in Perugia the 31st for sure, out with the Spanish students.
<snip>

Greetings Grinder,
from what I can read of 2 different Italian articles translated into English,
Rudy Guede was busted 2 days later with drugs on him.

But it is unclear,
as it does not say what town this was in, if it was Milan or Perugia.

I've assumed it was in Perugia, for as you note he was apparently put on a train by the Milan cops to split town,
and yet he went to the Lawyers Office 2 days later to, ahem, apologize.
+ that same day he was apparently busted with drugs on him...

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/07_novembre_20/rudy_dd005dda-9751-11dc-9cff-0003ba99c53b.shtml
+
http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubb...meredith-preso-il-quarto-uomo-sono-stato.html

Let me know if you find something to prove me wrong, ok?

 

[Grinder]

Of course he was coerced - as his subsequent accounts make clear. Even educated people make coerced statements to police. But he didn't need to defend the point in court because the courts accepted that he and Amanda provided mutual alibis. Why do you think they all accepted that position?

Exactly what does that mean? Are you saying that Massei accepted "that he and Amanda provided mutual alibis"?

 

[Grinder]

Greetings Grinder,
from what I can read of 2 different Italian articles translated into English,
Rudy Guede was busted 2 days later with drugs on him.

But it is unclear,
as it does not say what town this was in, if it was Milan or Perugia. I've assumed it was in Perugia, for as you note he was apparently put on a train by the Milan cops to split town, and yet he went to the Lawyers Office 2 days later to, ahem, apologize...

Let me know if you find something to prove me wrong, ok?

Sure.

Could you post those links if handy. I thought they indicated Milan but
I could, of course,
be wrong.

ETA - from the second link (must have been reading my mind ) - Only five days before the discovery of the body of Meredith had been caught in a nursery of Milan, with a knife taken in the school kitchen and its white laptop. "I was at the station when a South American offered me a bed for 50 euro - had told the police in Milan - let me in here." They had denounced him and let him go and then stop it again two days later with a group of African drug dealers and a bit 'of drugs in his pocket. From Mobile in Milan they do now know that long ago had noticed in trendy nightclubs.

I read it to be Milan - they being the MLE clearly and then stop in same sentence.

The article also has this which makes me doubt the quality of their source - And according to rumors blood Meredith would have been recognized not only on the sponge found in his house but also on underwear that had lent to Amanda. Other traces of the British student would have been unearthed on a cloth also seized this in his studio

 

[Ken Dine]

Hiya Ken Dine,
You are talking about a car seen at night.
here some more detailed info about this, for it appears that more than 1 car was seen that night near or in the driveway:

19:30 Guede claims he left home shortly after TG3 regional started and headed to the cottage and noticed a car parked outside the gates when he arrived.

19:51 First sighting of Rudy Guede on CCTV and a parked car outside the cottage gates. Guede seen walking through the car park towards the cottage gates. CCTV time stamp is 19:41.

20.01 Hekuran Kokomani’s cell phone pings off a tower servicing the cottage.
<snip>

22.30 Time approximate: A car breaks down at the exit of the parking garage across from the cottage. Pasqualino Coletta (the driver) testified that he called for assistance and nothing out of the ordinary happened while waiting. He heard no screams or saw anyone at the cottage. Note – He was part of a group of people traveling in two cars and had just finished dinner when the car broke down. None of the group noticed or heard anything. The second car in the group parked outside the cottage gates waiting for the repair man.

23.00 Mechanic arrives for broken down car. Gianfranco Lombardo was called between 22.30-22.40. He left his house in Bastia and arrived within 15 to 20 minutes. In a previous verbale he had said he arrived at about 11pm. It took him 10 to 15 minutes to load up the car and document it. He finished the job at about 23:15. He noted the gate of via della Pergola was open, and there was a car parked there, probably of a dark color. Parked car belonged to a friend of Pasqualino Coletta. Lombardo didn’t see any lights on in the house. He left at the latest at 23:20 and didn’t notice anybody pass by on the road or hear any screams etc.[35] The CCTV shows Lombardo arriving at 11.14pm and the tow truck remains stationary to 11.24pm (time adjusted forward 10mins)

Link:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/timeline-november-1/

* * *


Did you know that supposedly Hekuran Kokomani
had a conversation with the tow truck driver?
Koko apparently testified to this in The Massei Court on March 28, 2008.

From old Peruga Shock, dated April 2 of 2009,
link here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101015182419/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009_04_01_archive.html

<snip> the rest for brevity.

Dunno, but that all seems like a lot of speculation with little evidence to support it?

As for Hekuran Kokomani, his testimony was never accepted and he was considered to be a nut

As for this entry, it's clearly wrong:

19:51 First sighting of Rudy Guede on CCTV and a parked car outside the cottage gates. Guede seen walking through the car park towards the cottage gates. CCTV time stamp is 19:41.

The CCTV timestamp for Guede's 2nd sighting was actually at 20:10 (8:10 pm), but adjusted to around 8:21 since the time-stamp was later proven to be slow by about 10 to 12 minutes.

Another car that was likely captured since it turned around in the parking garage's driveway around 11:30 pm that night, would be the N. African boyfriend of one of the English gals (Sophie?) I forget his name now, but he worked in a restaurant in town, and after closing, he drove a friend to that parking garage to get the friend's car. Since he was dark (N. African) he was interrogated twice (around Nov 3rd), but since he likely had straight hair, he was never seriously considered to be a suspect, despite being near the cottage that night and knowing many of the players.

I've read that they also had CCTV footage of Guede leaving the cottage, but the video was never released, and the reporter who viewed it said the police had scrubbed the time-stamp from it. A time-stamped video of Guede leaving the cottage would clear up quite a lot, which is probably why it was suppressed along with all the other exculpatory evidence.

There were actually several CCTV security cams in that parking garage, but what they captured only Mignini knows?

The Italian police also checked out every security cam between Raffaele's apartment and the cottage, and when the defense asked for copies, the prosecution said they didn't keep them since nothing useful was found in the footage. Of course, what might not be useful for the prosecution may be very useful for the defense.

The inherent unfairness in the Italian legal system is SHOCKING!

Even though my two grandchildren now have Italian citizenship (as well as Brazilian and US citizenship), I hope they never actually go there!

 

[Vixen]

Of course he was coerced - as his subsequent accounts make clear. Even educated people make coerced statements to police. But he didn't need to defend the point in court because the courts accepted that he and Amanda provided mutual alibis. Why do you think they all accepted that position?

The problem you have is explaining the relevance of the statement to your overall argument. One of the following options must be correct:

1) The statement is true - Raffaele stayed in while Amanda went out. Therefore Raffaele is innocent while Amanda had the opportunity to commit murder.
2) The statement is false - Raffaele and Amanda both stayed in. Therefore both Amanda and Raffaele are innocent.
3) The statement is false - Amanda stayed in while Raffaele went out. Therefore Amanda is innocent while Raffaele had the opportunity to commit murder.
3) The statement is false - Raffaele and Amanda both went out. Therefore both Raffaele and Amanda had an opportunity to commit murder

Which option do you believe? Having selected your chosen option and in the light of it, explain what the relevance of the statement is, according to you, to the case.

I do not believe a single word of Raff's, and evidently, nor does his own counsel, who effectively gagged him, to stop him from changing his story for the umpty-ninth time.

As Raff's footprint in blood was on the bathmat, he was there. As was Amanda.

This is based strictly on evidence and nothing to do with nationality, American habits, Marilyn Manson, ta-da flourishes or from reading tabloids.

 

[Dougm]

I do not believe a single word of Raff's, and evidently, nor does his own counsel, who effectively gagged him, to stop him from changing his story for the umpty-ninth time.

As Raff's footprint in blood was on the bathmat, he was there. As was Amanda.

This is based strictly on evidence and nothing to do with nationality, American habits, Marilyn Manson, ta-da flourishes or from reading tabloids.

Vixy,

You would be right IF it was Raff's footprint on the bath mat. It's not his, and you are not right.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[acbytesla]

It's documented. Even in Raff's own book and witness statement.

Then you can't read. Because it doesn't say that at all.

 

[Strozzi]

What "American" habits?

From my own observations:

Last week an awfully nice American chap told me, "The Brits I've met have been so surprised I drove straight from Glok-es-cester to Edinburgh." (Gloucester).

A few summers ago, two teenage boys with loud American drawls swagger up to a simple hamburger stand in Joensuu, "What would you like?" "Give me the biggest burger you've got!"

Years ago looking at the Christmas lights in Oxford St, American tourist: "These lights are real pretty. ...[pause]... But the ones in the States are bigger!"

I guess Giobbi just couldn't cope. Murders, yep. Mafia, yep. Drug dealers, yep.

American habits? Noooooooooo! <fx g d rvvvvvvf>

Here are a few American habits that Amanda manifested:

• Plays guitar
• Speaks up or sings in the company of a group of British girls, some of whom she doesn't know.
• Does yoga, including the splits.
• Trusts the police.
• Eats pizza.
• Gets kissed on the head (not lips) by an Italian man to console her and responds with a kiss (at worst possible time).
• Looks ashen in video right before boyfriend tries to console her with kiss on the head, but somehow those video frames are omitted in the loop shown in news broadcasts.
• Looks for a parttime job due to work ethic (not financial need) and from a desire to meet people and learn Italian.
• Sees a very handsome black man and thinks he is very handsome.
• Writes lengthy notes and emails about anything and everything.
• Doesn't gasp "I have sinned" when confronted about smoking pot.
• Doesn't know that European toilets require manual help after flushing. Doesn't make a big deal out of it.
• Buys cheap clean underwear with hippo logo when she desperately needs clean underwear.
  
• showers a second time in her own shower with the good shampoo, not that cheap stuff guys use.
• When asked, lets her housemate "borrow" condoms and doesn't gossip about it to others.
• stays around to help the police and try to make a go of her study abroad, rather than take the first flight home.

 

[Strozzi]

Greetings Grinder,
from what I can read of 2 different Italian articles translated into English,
Rudy Guede was busted 2 days later with drugs on him.

But it is unclear,
as it does not say what town this was in, if it was Milan or Perugia.

I've assumed it was in Perugia, for as you note he was apparently put on a train by the Milan cops to split town,
and yet he went to the Lawyers Office 2 days later to, ahem, apologize. + that same day he was apparently busted with drugs on him...
http://www.corriere.it/cronache/07_novembre_20/rudy_dd005dda-9751-11dc-9cff-0003ba99c53b.shtml
+
http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubb...meredith-preso-il-quarto-uomo-sono-stato.html

Let me know if you find something to prove me wrong, ok?

I am now so sceptical of news reports and suspicious of how the Perugia police operate that I must ask if it is really true that Rudy had drugs on him that day? Or is the drug claim false? Is it the way the Perugia police confronted Rudi after his return from Milan ashoes pressed their displeasure about his involvement in the theft at the lawyers' office and the trouble he caused in Milan? Is the drug charge a way to show him the power they have over him and that they can get him on a false drug charge anytime they want?

 

[Grinder]

I am now so sceptical of news reports and suspicious of how the Perugia police operate that I must ask if it is really true that Rudy had drugs on him that day? Or is the drug charge false? Is it the way the Perugia police confronted Rudi after his return from Milan ashoes pressed their displeasure about his involvement in the theft at the lawyers' office and the trouble he caused in Milan? Is the drug charge a way to show him the power they have over him and that they can get him on a false drug charge anytime they want?

I don't believe that there is any corroboration of this alleged drug stop. As I pointed out above the rest of the article has information that only a dedicated PGP could believe (MK blood on a sponge at Raf's).

The article also reads as if the stop was in Milan when Guede was in Perugia.

 

[moije2]

I guess Raf's dad and sister weren't adults. Beat up? Come on.



There was an on-going investigation. The kids had risen to the top of the suspect list. I believe that Raf's interviews with the police and the press were inconsistent. We don't details of much of the early interviews but Amanda not mentioning the PL texts seemed suspicious.

I don't know why they would have feared Edda more than the good doctor and his daughter.
I know that a judge said something about her mother arriving and it was on their minds.

You have said this before. It doesn't seem valid the indirect point you aretrying to make. Amanda could be wisked off, out of jurisdiction to the USA. Where would Raffaele go? Bari? Don't understand this comment which you've sort of tacked on more than once. What am I missing?